Would you be willing to die for your country?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Nov. 14 2002,23:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the issue is leadership.

even in a rigid environment like the armed forces, with its wall between officers and enlisted men, there are true leaders on both sides of the wall.

in every crowd there are some that others are more willing to listen to than others. it lies in the personal makeup of a leader that he attracts followers.

let's say people can have a "leadership quotient" of between 1 and 10.

a 5 will never willingly follow a 1 or a 2 or a 3 or a 4.

he will want to follow a 6 or 7...

now, when you have a real leader among the NCOs and only follower quality types among the officers, you have yourself a problem.

I admit that I personally have a very hard time to follow somebody's order which I percieve to be inferior because I can come up with a better alternative myself.

I only want to submit to folks I look up to.

(good thing I command an army of one    )<span id='postcolor'>

I totally agree with you. A good thing is that in wartime it's easier to advance in the ranks (seargant and leftenant). This was quite common with the norwegian forces during WWII. Of course, it could very well be due to under-officers getting killed in a higher rate than there is a supply, but nevertheless.

[Tydium 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Oh, yeah, the lack of initiative also resulted in major pissed offedness factor in the troops. Our fucking platoon leader could not even decide where to put up the fucking tents without asking the regular officer who was our platoon trainer.

<span id='postcolor'>

Sound's like that guy isn't leading your platoon during war time. Regular officer evaluate people during exercises and their evaluations are considered when the war time units are formed.

What comes to the Finnish army leadership training the biggest problem is the service time. Nowadays normal grunts serve 6 months while NCO's and reserve officers serve 12 months. It's difficult to get enough competent people in the NCO school because most people want to get out of the army in the shortest possible time. Of course they could force them to go but that would have serious affect to their motivation.

And of course for those who was trained to squad leaders and reserve officers the army's leadership training is only the beginning of learning process that will continue in reserves.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tydium @ Nov. 15 2002,12:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What comes to the Finnish army leadership training the biggest problem is the service time. Nowadays normal grunts serve 6 months while NCO's and reserve officers serve 12 months. It's difficult to get enough competent people in the NCO school because most people want to get out of the army in the shortest possible time. Of course they could force them to go but that would have serious affect to their motivation.

And of course for those who was trained to squad leaders and reserve officers the army's leadership training is only the beginning of learning process that will continue in reserves.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, nowadays the situation is even more fucked than when I served. But I am from the old school, so the currrent situation does not apply to me.

The problem is that those who are chosen to the NCO and officer school are not necessarily the true leaders of the bunch. A short example:

Our measuring squad was initially trained by the trainer regular officer to be an efficient measuring squad. Then they send us the NCO from the NCO school and the ofiicer from the officer school. It turns out that in the real measuring situation, both of those "leaders" were totally incompetent. So this one private of the squad ends up commanding this whole outfit. In the end they made him PFC. Would it have not been better to send this one private to officer school, since he clearly had the most leadership potential?

[Tydium 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

The problem is that those who are chosen to the NCO and officer school are not necessarily the true leaders of the bunch. A short example:

Our measuring squad was initially trained by the trainer regular officer to be an efficient measuring squad. Then they send us the NCO from the NCO school and the ofiicer from the officer school. It turns out that in the real measuring situation, both of those "leaders" were totally incompetent. So this one private of the squad ends up commanding this whole outfit. In the end they made him PFC. Would it have not been better to send this one private to officer school, since he clearly had the most leadership potential?

<span id='postcolor'>

There have always been incompetent leaders and there always will be. I think that getting two of them in the same squad is simply bad luck.

As I explained in my earlier post it's difficult to get enough competent people to the NCO school because the difference in service times. The gap wasn't so large during your service but it was still there. Was this PFC willing to go in the NCO school ? The army tries to avoid forcing people to the last because it has a huge negative impact to their motivation. And you also need good people on the grunt level.

Finnish army reserve promotion system allows normal grunt to be promoted up to the rank of corporal. This makes it possible for normal grunt to became a squad leader. During WWII there was several cases where grunts was promoted to NCO's and NCO's was prototed to officers because of casualties and their leadership abilities.

It's important for the morale and for the effectiveness of the group that men can trust their leaders. But as I said earlier the army's leadership training is only the begining of the learning process. So then incompetent officers might not be so incompetent when you see them again in refresher training.

[Sam Samson 0]

guess a lot of people don't realize that you as a person can grow in your leadership ability.

here's what helps you get respect over the long haul:

1. character is more important than charisma.

your martial charisma will wears off after a while, character never goes out of style. (you know, the ten commandments-style stuff; duty, honor, country...)

2. competence.

nothing makes you as attractive to somebody with a problem as competence, which solves his prob.

3. vision and clear goals.

you need to know what you want. because if you don't know where you're going, you won't know when you have arrived.

can't think of anything else right now.

another question:

do you know somebody - a leader - you genuinely respect?

[Balschoiw 0]

Officers behaviour and ability to lead units in times of conflict can be a tricky thing to judge. I once had a major that we trained with at a local camp here. I was really looking forward to go on duty with the guy, but when we got to Kongo I had to find out that he got totally messed with missing his family and home. He was not even able to order us in a sufficient way and brought us into shit-situation more than once only cause of his panic and total loss of control. He was replaced after some time and went back home to face the consequences. Never heard of him again. Guess they put him into an office job where he can keep his rank but cant cause harm.

Officers i highly respect for excellent qualities:

General Reinhard, now retired but former leader of the first UNOSOM contigent. Awesome man.

Oberstleutnant Kammerhoff for being an excellent boss right now. I am moving with him for 8 years now. Looks like a bulldog and has the same qualities

Officers in lower ranks dont count that much anymore for me now as I am in high standard rank that levels out most troop officer ranks.

[Sam Samson 0]

err...

is there nobody but ole balsh who looks up to some kind of leader in his or her environment?

how about parents, teachers, profs, wives, ...mods (chchch )

[bn880 5]

WHat is this, I read the entire thread thinking it was new (all into it), and Sam just dug it out of it's grave.

Ok... deserting during a battle I think should be severely punished, as Denoir said. During war but not in the middle of a fight, different rules. Really, if someone deserts his company in the middle of a fight to defend a great country like Sweden or perhaps Canada deserves to become a lesson to others. At least that's my opinion right now.

If he's going to desert he should do it during pace time, even better stay away from the military if possible (usually is).