Throttle System Option

[Janez 530]

I got somewhat used to it after couple of restarts in Xi'an showcase but I have to say that, while new system is easier on (usually) our pinky finger while flying, previous throttle system is just plain better using KB+M for delicate maneuvers such as taxiing and landing, especially carrier landing. KB+M is clumsy and inaccurate tool for flying to begin with, and therefore requires a lot of small adjustments back and forth quickly. These kind of adjustments are now very difficult or sometimes plain impossible due to keypress being a binary action.

Flying using KB+M is similar to driving a sim using it, you can plan ahead of what you are going to do but it never turns out that way because of keypress. Same with flying. You may know that X amount of throttle is needed for certain situations but it can be impossible to achieve that situation consistently to begin with.

[Drift_91 33]

I can not stand the new throttle system. It sounds excellent for someone with a HOTAS or even standard all-in-one joystick. But it's frustrating as all hell on keyboard and mouse. I have to second the complaints about taxiing, as well; I tried to taxi on the USS Freedom and one second I'm not moving, next I tap the shift key and roll right off the deck. Having a seperate airbrake/wheelbrake key is frustrating too; I'm used to simply mashing ctrl to decelerate instead of having to press one key to throttle down and then mash the brakes.

 

On top of all this you've got the issue of VTOLs:

I purchased the Jets DLC mainly to support BI's work on Arma because of what a wonderful game has been created. It would be much appreciated if you guys could add a simple feature for the player to choose their preferred throttle style.

 

 

On 2017-05-20 at 7:00 AM, xxgetbuck123 said:

There is no option to change back. Everyone else that used KB+M seemed to have converted over fine. 

 

To be completely honest, if you struggle to focus on throttle and speed break at the same time... flying probably isn't for you. 

Define "everyone"? Because I'm seeing a lot of complaints spread across several threads.

This is a video game, not real life flight. If someone is unable to handle energy management as part of multitasking there's no reason they shouldn't be able to 'arcade-ize' the game to their needs and personal preferences.

[martinezfg11 334]

The 0-100 throttle doesn't work well for vtol's. the vtols tend to need a sharp rise in throttle as they transition from airplane flight to hover. And if your not paying attention or task saturated you can find yourself descending to fast or ascending due to over compensation. Perhaps some automatic adjustments would be nice for the VTOL to keep descent rates when the aircraft loses lift and requires thrust compensation. just like the real thing. 

[Drift_91 33]

7 hours ago, martinezfg11 said:

The 0-100 throttle doesn't work well for vtol's. the vtols tend to need a sharp rise in throttle as they transition from airplane flight to hover. And if your not paying attention or task saturated you can find yourself descending to fast or ascending due to over compensation. Perhaps some automatic adjustments would be nice for the VTOL to keep descent rates when the aircraft loses lift and requires thrust compensation. just like the real thing. 

The way I see it the 0-100 throttle should be optional, and then the VTOLs should switch between the user's preferred modes of fixed wing throttle and helicopter flight model when switching between forward and VTOL flight respectively. Although I don't have enough experience with VTOLs to say whether using the helicopter's flight models would work for them.

[scotg 204]

This post comes from the perspective of a modder, particularly with vehicles:

I agree with Drift_91, above, about having VTOL flight model options. I'm not convinced a straight-up helicopter type system would be best, but a choice to have the previous VTOL flight system would at least be "not a step backwards."

With the new flight model and a VTOL I can takeoff, fly, land, taxi, and even do vertical landings, but I wouldn't say it's just fine - not by a long shot. It used to be fun flying VTOLs, but now it's just a chore. It takes a long time to throttle down, speed brake, position the aircraft, and finally set down. By then I'm lucky if I'm anywhere near the LZ, and I usually have to descend from at least 250 meters even after approaching at 50. Helicopters are a cakewalk compared to this. You can come in quickly and low with a constant stream of micro-adjustments, and then set down exactly where you want. I want the same degree of control and speed for my VTOLs without having to turn them into rotor-less choppers. While I kind of like this new system for standard flight, the old way was far better for VTOLs. Oh, and I use an F710 game pad (for all vehicles), in case that matters.

This is where I go into a semi-rant, so take it with a grain of salt: Personally, I think revamping the flight system is like putting the wagon before the horse. There are a lot of infantry movement issues that seem more priority, and I'm not even talking AI. One annoying thing is having to run up, stop, and slowly step over even the smallest of obstacles. There needs to be some official implementation of fast-paced obstacle clearance, like some of the mods have. I'm not saying every soldier needs to have parkour skills, but If a real life drill sergeant witnessed soldiers approach an obstacle that way he'd eat them for lunch and poop out their grandkids later. And the characters move around so friggin' much! There's no military bearing, the way they squirm all the time. Do you need to wipe your brow every 7 seconds, or check the bottom of your shoe every 10 seconds? Infantry is just one area that has been overlooked, and even ground vehicles should get more attention before aircraft. We need better looking suspension, for vehicles that have exposed struts and springs and large moving parts (a vehicle IK and vertex weight setup would greatly help). There needs to be towing - not just piggie-back towing, but real towing with trailers and hitches. We need an option to see tank drivers, for certain real life and custom tanks. We need an option to use a dual-stick game pad like real tank controls (who knows if they will do this for the tank dlc). How about let's get some tracks on cars, for better half-tracks and quad-track trucks with steerable tracks. We need the option to give drivers and pilots the ability to operate a turret via helmet (such as the AH64), at least in custom vehicles. I'm starting to get into some wishful thinking, but it's all (every bit of it) a better use of time than revamping the flight model. Even a radio sim would be better. Train up on frequency hopping and ComSec! Can't get a signal, eh? Then you'd better deploy your OE-254 and make sure you put a perimeter around it so the privates don't screw it all up (and get the crap shocked out of them). I jest, but it's a good point I make. The thing that bothers me isn't that ArmA 3 vehicles have all these limitations; it's that these limitations are also imposed on potential custom vehicles, whether real or fictional. It's getting so that every mod has to stay within an increasingly tighter set of parameters, and as such, vehicle mods are becoming far too homogeneous.

I wonder how the Star Wars mod guys are coping with the new flight model. Are their A/B/X/Y-wing fighters still able to take off and land quickly?

[b00tsy 28]

The devs need to see that they messed up with the jets dlc (for K/M players). It reduced the gameplay and controls instead of improving them. The throttle is my biggest annoyance of that whole change.  I can not even realistically taxi a jet on the runway at low speed due to that throttle. And dog fighting with the new throttle is a huge pain the behind now while it used to be lots of fun. I wish I could revert it to the old controls, because I don't fly jets at all anymore since that update. It is for me a broken part of the game. 'Don't fix what aint broken'!

[a_killer_wombat 120]

As a K/M only player, I actually prefer the new throttle control system introduced with 1.70. It has made the fixed-wing piloting experiencing more fun for me. 

[b00tsy 28]

6 minutes ago, a_killer_wombat said:

As a K/M only player, I actually prefer the new throttle control system introduced with 1.70. It has made the fixed-wing piloting experiencing more fun for me. 

You probably don't dogfight much where you need instant variable speed and thrust. And I tried the Wipeout again a few days ago and I still can't taxi at a steady 20 km/ph. I taxi now like the AI used to taxi with stop and go speed. They should give an option to choose the old throttle. The new throttle may work if you just cruise in the air, but combat sucks with it. I also didn't buy the Jet dlc just because of the throttle change.

[oukej 2910]

On 10/2/2017 at 4:28 PM, b00tsy said:

And I tried the Wipeout again a few days ago and I still can't taxi at a steady 20 km/ph.

Single tap on the Shift key takes me to some 4% throttle which gives me ~18km/h taxi speed.
If you want a more precise control I'd suggest mapping the throttle increase/decrease to a modifier (alt) + mousewheel. With that you can easily make 1% increments as well as bigger changes.

[scotg 204]

All the KB/M people seem to like, and all the stick users seem to not like it. I use gamepad/thumbsticks, and even though I've learned to fly a lot better, it's way less fun and doesn't seem practical in a hot zone.

[b00tsy 28]

8 hours ago, oukej said:

Single tap on the Shift key takes me to some 4% throttle which gives me ~18km/h taxi speed.
If you want a more precise control I'd suggest mapping the throttle increase/decrease to a modifier (alt) + mousewheel. With that you can easily make 1% increments as well as bigger changes.

But thats just it. When I do a small quick tab the jet will go indeed slow, but also slowly starts to increase speed, it does not stay at a steady low speed. Even if that issue goes away I still can't dogfight like I used to.

 

Like I used to, but what I can not do anymore (on my old potato rig, but still valid):

 

[Drift_91 33]

On 10/9/2017 at 9:10 AM, oukej said:

Single tap on the Shift key takes me to some 4% throttle which gives me ~18km/h taxi speed.
If you want a more precise control I'd suggest mapping the throttle increase/decrease to a modifier (alt) + mousewheel. With that you can easily make 1% increments as well as bigger changes.

That's interesting because that's not what happens for me. I get somewhere between 3% and 9% at random. Then you've got modded gameplay to consider, where a single tap in the F/A-18 sent me right off the deck of the U.S.S. Freedom when the jets DLC first came out. I'd try the mousewheel but I don't think I can work out the keybindings. Maybe if I use something other than alt. Wouldn't the action menu still pop up though?

 

My main gripe with the new throttle though is when it comes to landing. Much more difficult to manage my speed during the approach. I'd imagine dogfighting must be complete hell too if I were to try it. There's a reason real fighter jets have HOTAS. You constantly need to make major adjustments to the throttle in a dogfight. Not everyone can afford a HOTAS system for their game though. And in my case it's not practical when I'm constantly switching between aviation and ground operations. I just don't see why so much friction against having the old system. It's like cruise control in a car, it makes things easier to control. Hell, even real pilots use the auto-throttle in the autopilot to maintain speed. And in those two examples it's more of a luxury than a requirement. The way I see it it's more of an essential for keyboard and mouse. Could you imagine trying to control your car on the highway with two buttons that increase and decrease your throttle instead of an accelerator pedal?

[x3kj 1247]

On 22.1.2018 at 7:47 PM, Drift_91 said:

where a single tap in the F/A-18 sent me right off the deck of the U.S.S. Freedom

if memory serves right, this mod used to automatically and immediately apply an "afterburner" script when you where on the ground and pushed the throttle lightly.

 

I will agree that it is a bit more difficult to controll precise speed (or decend when using vtol) when only using keyboard.

[fathersarge 46]

On 10/9/2017 at 7:10 AM, oukej said:

Single tap on the Shift key takes me to some 4% throttle which gives me ~18km/h taxi speed.
If you want a more precise control I'd suggest mapping the throttle increase/decrease to a modifier (alt) + mousewheel. With that you can easily make 1% increments as well as bigger changes.

 

Really?

 

Just give the option to use the old controls already. I don't even fly planes anymore because of this update. Are you all just bad at your jobs or something? If you can switch between SFM and AFM for helicopters, what's the problem with the fixed wing controls?

[Drift_91 33]

On 1/24/2018 at 4:40 PM, x3kj said:

if memory serves right, this mod used to automatically and immediately apply an "afterburner" script when you where on the ground and pushed the throttle lightly.

 

I will agree that it is a bit more difficult to controll precise speed (or decend when using vtol) when only using keyboard.

I think that was a flaw in the keybindings for the mod that got patched a while back. It was updated again after the Jets DLC so that the afterburner only turns on at a certain throttle setting with the new system. Admittedly, the mod was updated after I went flying off the deck, so it might have been the afterburner and I just wasn't paying attention. I still however don't understand what @oukej is talking about with 18km/h. I set my throttle to 4% in the Caesar BTT and it quickly reaches 22km/h and continues to slowly accelerate until I reach a turn in the taxiway.

 

On 2/5/2018 at 2:47 PM, fathersarge said:

 

Really?

 

Just give the option to use the old controls already. I don't even fly planes anymore because of this update. Are you all just bad at your jobs or something? If you can switch between SFM and AFM for helicopters, what's the problem with the fixed wing controls?

I really don't understand why the devs are so against it. It's a combat game, not a flight simulator; As has already been discussed the last thing you want in a combat zone is to be finicking with the throttle. There's a reason real life CAS and fighter aircraft have HOTAS and all manner of electronic flight envelope protection. Also it's pretty sad to see some people have had to completely give up flying in Arma 3 just because of this one simple thing that can be fixed in probably less than a days work by one or two junior programmers.

[fathersarge 46]

On 2/21/2018 at 10:10 PM, Drift_91 said:

I think that was a flaw in the keybindings for the mod that got patched a while back. It was updated again after the Jets DLC so that the afterburner only turns on at a certain throttle setting with the new system. Admittedly, the mod was updated after I went flying off the deck, so it might have been the afterburner and I just wasn't paying attention. I still however don't understand what @oukej is talking about with 18km/h. I set my throttle to 4% in the Caesar BTT and it quickly reaches 22km/h and continues to slowly accelerate until I reach a turn in the taxiway.

 

I really don't understand why the devs are so against it. It's a combat game, not a flight simulator; As has already been discussed the last thing you want in a combat zone is to be finicking with the throttle. There's a reason real life CAS and fighter aircraft have HOTAS and all manner of electronic flight envelope protection. Also it's pretty sad to see some people have had to completely give up flying in Arma 3 just because of this one simple thing that can be fixed in probably less than a days work by one or two junior programmers.

 

On 10/9/2017 at 7:10 AM, oukej said:

Single tap on the Shift key takes me to some 4% throttle which gives me ~18km/h taxi speed.
If you want a more precise control I'd suggest mapping the throttle increase/decrease to a modifier (alt) + mousewheel. With that you can easily make 1% increments as well as bigger changes.

 

 

 

Welcome to BIS, where we make everything up and the players' opinions don't matter

[oukej 2910]

The original change has been based on players' feedback. Sadly an option isn't always an option. I'm sorry for there won't be any further work on this and it will remain as it is.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

2 minutes ago, oukej said:

The original change has been based on players' feedback. Sadly an option isn't always an option. I'm sorry for there won't be any further work on this and it will remain as it is.

 

@oukej

 

while youre around, are devs aware of the VTOL throttle bug, whereby if you are pilot of blackfish vtol but another player is your group leader, your vtol throttle will spike to 100 when the aircraft is touching the ground?

 

the result is destructive, and the common workaround is to create your own group (so you are lead) when piloting blackfish

[oukej 2910]

No, we are not. Thanks for heads up! Do u know - does it happen in MP only or can I try it with AI as my leader too?

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

10 minutes ago, oukej said:

No, we are not. Thanks for heads up! Do u know - does it happen in MP only or can I try it with AI as my leader too?

 

only times i have seen are in dedi MP.

 

sec ill dig up a video of it

 

 

 

and a ticket for it

 

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T126282

 

[Aussiegreen 0]

Hi issues with throttle range

I have a thrustmaster Warthog Hotas set up which works fine with IL2 Rise of flight & DCS. In Arma 3 i have a very limited operation range of 25% of the throttles movement which makes flying Helicopters like the AH-64D Official Project almost impossible.

i am using the throttle as the collective pull the throttle lever backwards to raise the helo push the throttle forward to lower the Helo the problem is nothing happens for 75% of the movment (pulling back on the throttle) , so im only left with 25% usable movement this make hovering really tricky.

Has any one encouuntered and managed to find a solution?

 

i have unsitalled the game the drivers the hotas used the target software to put in an s curve etc and increased and decreased sensitivity in the game but nothing seems to work

 

would like apointer in the right direct 

thanks in advance