Re-uploading mods on the workshop

[R0adki11 3945]

10 minutes ago, semiconductor said:

If I didn't know that the car is stolen? Yeah, and here where I live (and I think that in almost any country with Roman law-based law system) I would be a "bona fide" purchaser and therefore would have a law on my side.

Really sounds like an odd set of laws. 

 

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that BI shouldn't do anything about illegal uploads but they shouldn't so blatantly affect the third party. I didn't and couldn't reasonably know that the upload was illegal, so why did BI had decided (taking the example in the real world) to dispatch a SWAT team to sturm my house with milsurp MRAPS just because I've bought a rusty 1987 Toyota that was apparently stolen 10 years ago?

BI didn't dispatch a SWAT team, this is BI policing the steam workshop. As an addon maker i am glad that it is been done, steam has been full of these illegal uploads. And as much as you think it shouldn't affect the 3rd party in this, if you subscribed to an illegal upload you will be affected, all other users on steam will be affected. All i can suggest is that you subscribe to content that you know was created by the uploader and you will have no issues. If you didn't read the description of the upload, i am unsure how you can put the blame at BI.

[Rich_R 1087]

@semiconductor I think we need to agree to disagree with your logic about not having a stolen repossessed. From a law blog;

 

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Although you will likely not be charged with a crime, if you unknowingly bought stolen goods, you will probably have to return them to the rightful owner. The thief (or thieves) will then owe you the purchase price in restitution

 

I think the SWAT team comparison is a huge over-statement but there you go.

[semiconductor 309]

15 minutes ago, R0adki11 said:

Really sounds an odd set of laws.

As far as I know the idea behind it is that the buyer who purchased a thing in a good faith shouldn't be held responsible for the wrongdoings of others. But I'm not a expert so I might be missing something.

 

15 minutes ago, R0adki11 said:

All i can suggest is that you subscribe to content that you know was created by the uploader

How could I know? There is virtually no way to reliably identify an author in Steam because virtually everything in his profile (nickname, avatar) is subject to change. The map had been in the workshop for years, there wasn't anything suspicious in the description and it had a huge amount of subscribers. I've never intentionally subscribed to the illegal uploads, I even didn't subscribe to Kickass'es pack of the weapons ripped from other games for precisely that reason. But silently removing the data that I downloaded and expect to be present on my HDD is not a good way of enforcing copyright either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

15 minutes ago, Rich_R said:

I think the SWAT team comparison is a huge over-statement but there you go.

There is a difference between "returning" and "stealing it back when the buyer isn't looking". But I think these comparisons are getting a bit ridiculous. :D

[ProfTournesol 956]

3 minutes ago, semiconductor said:

As far as I know, the idea behind it is that the buyer who purchased a thing in a good faith shouldn't be held responsible for the wrongdoings

 

Nope, but he'll be dispossessed of it immediately.

[R0adki11 3945]

7 minutes ago, semiconductor said:

How could I know? There is virtually no way to reliably identify an author in Steam because virtually everything in his profile (nickname, avatar) is subject to change. The map had been in the workshop for years, there wasn't anything suspicious in the description and it had a huge amount of subscribers. I've never intentionally subscribed to the illegal uploads, I even didn't subscribe to Kickass'es pack of the weapons ripped from other games for that reason. But silently removing the data that I downloaded and expect to be present is not a good way of enforcing copyright either.

Without been able to see the description myself, i would have to say its likely a small paragraph or one line of text as is often the case with illegal uploads. Addon makers who actually upload content themselves tend to do a copy and paste from the readme they create for the addon and this generally more then one paragraph. 

 

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But silently removing the data that I downloaded and expect to be present is not a good way of enforcing copyright either.

This a mechanise of steam, its not doing it silently its how content is synced to your PC. If you don't like this method of syncing perhaps stop using the workshop and manually manage mods. Which is what i personally do, i don't actually subscribe to any mods on the workshop. I like the old fashioned way of managing content, its worked great since Operation Flashpoint was released so have no need to change it. 

 

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As far as I know, the idea behind it is that the buyer who purchased a thing in a good faith shouldn't be held responsible for the wrongdoings of others.

Maybe, depends on what laws your country has. Where in the world are you?

[Greenfist 1863]

10 minutes ago, R0adki11 said:

Without been able to see the description myself, i would have to say its likely a small paragraph or one line of text as is often the case with illegal uploads. Addon makers who actually upload content themselves tend to do a copy and paste from the readme they create for the addon and this generally more then one paragraph. 

 

Regarding Fallujah, right?

It think it's this: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ygozr__NVHUJ:https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/%3Fid%3D633789490

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This is a direct port of the Fallujah map from A2 to A3. This is my first upload so please notify me if I published it in the wrong format and I will fix it. :D. If the original work author would like me to take this down then I will.

[...]
ALL CREDIT GOES TO SHEZAN74, I TAKE NO CREDIT FOR MAKING THIS, IT IS SIMPLY A PORT

" The map had been in the workshop for years, there wasn't anything suspicious in the description "

[semiconductor 309]

1 minute ago, R0adki11 said:

Without been able to see the description myself, i would have to say its likely a small paragraph or one line of text as is often the case with illegal uploads. Addon makers who actually upload content themselves tend to do a copy and paste from the readme they create for the addon and this generally more then one paragraph. 

Usually that's the case, yes, but I'm pretty sure the item had a quite lengthy description of the terrain. Maybe it was stolen from original author, maybe it was copy-pasted from an another illegal upload, who knows?

 

3 minutes ago, R0adki11 said:

This a mechanise of steam, its not doing it silently its how content is synced to your PC. If you don't like this method of syncing perhaps stop using the workshop and manually manage mods.

Well, still it would be a huge improvement to show a notification of some sorts. You see, I was working on a mission on Fallujah and now it for some reason moved to Utes, I mean, all the objects, units, everything is there but on Utes. That's probably a good thing because I think I will be able to just download a (hopefully 100% legal this time) version of the map and copy the objects over but if there was no other versions of the same map I would have lost a couple of days spent making mission.

 

Anyway, I surely didn't expect such invasive behavior, it really goes to show that you don't own anything digital unless you store it on a detached hard drive locked in the safe in your basement (...but even then the government can take away your house).

[Dwarden 1124]

"free redistribution is permitted for the original file package as long as it is kept unmodified and distributed 100% free of charge. "

 

this one line is what rescued Fallujah before (year ago) and will again ...

 

so it stays there available unless the the original author complains himself

[kremator 1064]

Buying something 'stolen' using real honest money doesn't make is less stolen.  The law isn't on the purchaser side and the stolen car would be returned to the rightful owner and you'd be out of pocket.  That is the way the law works I'm afraid.

 

In this case, my advice is never to use SteamWorkshop and that way your files are safe.

 

Shocked at all this name calling - for shame /s

[Montgomery 205]

6 minutes ago, kremator said:

In this case, my advice is never to use SteamWorkshop and that way your files are safe.

Do you mean as someone using the mod or as the mod author?

 

I've never understood why some mod authors refuse to use the Steam Workshop. Are there different rules that apply to the Steam Workshop that don't apply to any other place the mod can be uploaded by an author? 

[semiconductor 309]

54 minutes ago, Rich_R said:

I think we need to agree to disagree with your logic about not having a stolen repossessed. From a law blog;

 

54 minutes ago, R0adki11 said:

Really sounds like an odd set of laws. 

 

8 minutes ago, kremator said:

Buying something 'stolen' using real honest money doesn't make is less stolen.  The law isn't on the purchaser side and the stolen car would be returned to the rightful owner and you'd be out of pocket.

A bit of offtopic but quick googling tells me that you guys are actually right, with the caveat that I still can demand the compensation from the seller. Live and learn, huh.

[R0adki11 3945]

16 minutes ago, montgomery said:

I've never understood why some mod authors refuse to use the Steam Workshop. Are there different rules that apply to the Steam Workshop that don't apply to any other place the mod can be uploaded by an author? 

This question actually came up in the Ravage thread earlier today, after it was found someone had uploaded the mod to steam when the readme says no uploads to steam.

 

My answer to this, is because alot of mod makers including myself don't agree with the End User License Agreement provided by steam. As we want to protect our work, our hard work and all of the 100's of hours put into making content. If steam was policed better, i am sure more modders might be more interested in using steam.

[Dwarden 1124]

@R0adki11 we(i) do what's in our power to keep Workshop to be better place (within the existing limitations of system)

 

we worked hard with Valve to get the previous TOS/EULA update(s) toward more rights for creative content makers

 

also the DMCA process is administrated by Valve own team and works quite well for those IP disputes it can cover

[Karl Sauer 79]

28 minutes ago, montgomery said:

Do you mean as someone using the mod or as the mod author?

 

I've never understood why some mod authors refuse to use the Steam Workshop. Are there different rules that apply to the Steam Workshop that don't apply to any other place the mod can be uploaded by an author? 

They have certain legal clauses that make people's palms get sweaty. We in the FoW team were very reluctant to upload to workshop, because a few of our artists did not like the wording of the subsriber agreement related to content uploading. But we eventually caved in, as there was an overwhelming amount of 'requests' for us to put it up there, and the artists changed their mind after some internal discussion on the subject.

 

 

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/english/

Such as this in 5: A

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When you upload your content to Steam to make it available to other users and/or to Valve, you grant Valve and its affiliates the worldwide, non-exclusive, right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, in connection with the operation, distribution and promotion of the Steam service, Steam games or other Steam offerings.

 

Of course you have this in 5: B

 

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• You may, in your sole discretion, choose to remove a Workshop Contribution from the applicable Workshop pages. If you do so, Valve will no longer have the right to use, distribute, transmit, communicate, publicly display or publicly perform the Workshop Contribution, except that (a) Valve may continue to exercise these rights for any Workshop Contribution that is accepted for distribution in-game or distributed in a manner that allows it to be used in-game, and (b) your removal will not affect the rights of any Subscriber who has already obtained access to a copy of the Workshop Contribution.

 

 

 

 

 

[Montgomery 205]

@R0adki11 @Karl Sauer  Thanks for explaining the situation. I certainly understand wanting to protect your work and I respect and appreciate all the hours of work and coordination that goes into creating a good addon.

[rksl-rock 1300]

1 hour ago, semiconductor said:

If I didn't know that the car is stolen? Yeah, and here where I live (and I think that in almost any country with Roman law-based law system) I would be a "bona fide" purchaser and therefore would have a law on my side.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that BI shouldn't do anything about illegal uploads but in the same time they shouldn't so blatantly affect the third party. I didn't and couldn't reasonably know that the upload was illegal, so why did BI had decided (taking the example to the real world) to dispatch a SWAT team to sturm my house with milsurp MRAPs just because I've bought in a good faith a rusty 1987 Toyota that was - unknowingly to me - stolen 10 years ago?

In any world where you unknowingly buy a stolen car you maybe a "bona fide purchaser" but in the eyes of the law you still arent the owner.  "Your rusty 1987 Toyota" either belongs to the previous owner or the insurance company that paid out on the policy.  

 

You say you "didn't and couldn't reasonably know that the upload was illegal" yet you still agreed to the Steam Agreement that makes it clear that you should not upload content you do not own... there is no defence to be had with that line.

 

 

[semiconductor 309]

43 minutes ago, rksl-rock said:

t you should not upload content you do not own... there is no defence to be had with that line.

I didn't upload anything. Moreover, in my original post isn't arguing about the legality of downloaded content (which is most likely was indeed illegal), I'm talking about the way the "repossession" is being handled. Like, I woke up one morning, leave the house and find out that my Toyota isn't where I left it yesterday's evening. It's gone, just like that, no letter from the court, no bailiff, no police, nothing. Naturally everyone's first thought would be that some young men of troublesome upbringing who routinely find themselves in a tight financial situation saw the automobile in question as a viable way to increase their annual income and standards of living.

[rksl-rock 1300]

19 minutes ago, semiconductor said:

I didn't upload anything. Moreover, in my original post isn't arguing about the legality of downloaded content (which is most likely was indeed illegal), I'm talking about the way the "repossession" is being handled. Like, I woke up one morning, leave the house and find out that my Toyota isn't where I left it yesterday's evening. It's gone, just like that, no letter from the court, no bailiff, no police, nothing. Naturally everyone's first thought would be that some young men of troublesome upbringing who routinely find themselves in a tight financial situation saw the automobile in question as a viable way to increase their annual income and standards of living.

The analogy is stil valid.  As is the comment about the Steam Licence.

 

You dont own anything you download.  Especially on Steam.  You dont even own the games you buy.  You pay for a licence to use them.  Thats how Steam can ban you from its services and you have no come back.  The licence tells you that you have a licence to use content.  Steam reserves the right to remove any content at any time in that Agreement.  Its the same for Games and User created content.  

 

So one day if BIS and Steam fall out and Bis demands the removal of ArmA3 from steam you'll come home and you'll have no ArmA3 either. Steam removed Illegally uploaded content from their service.   Their service includes any files delivered to your PC via their service.  So if its removed form their servers it will also be removed from services delivered to your machine.

 

Its part of the service you agreed to when you clicked on the Steam agreement.

[road runner 4344]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=908919272&searchtext=

 

 

 

Habitual offender with regards to addons that are not his, especially Robert Hammers..

[R0adki11 3945]

25 minutes ago, road runner said:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=908919272&searchtext=

 

 

 

Habitual offender with regards to addons that are not his, especially Robert Hammers..

Report the issue on steam, and steam can take care of the rest.

[road runner 4344]

6 minutes ago, R0adki11 said:

report the issue on steam, and steam can take care of the rest.

It's been reported.
I'm curious, the purge on addons by BI over the past 3-4 days.....why is there so many life mods still active, they've got more 3rd party ported content than the games they ported from!!

The biggest culprits of using stuff without permission hails from the lifers .... Forza anyone?

[semiconductor 309]

Just now, road runner said:

It's been reported.

While we're on a subject, what repercussions the guy will face other than his upload being removed? I take it that the answer is "none", well, no wonder that all the effort put into "policing" the SW didn't help then.

[road runner 4344]

1 minute ago, semiconductor said:

While we're on a subject, what repercussions the guy will face other than his upload being removed? I take it that the answer is "none", well, no wonder that all the effort put into "policing" the SW didn't help then.

An interesting point indeed, he's a steam customer, by banning his account, it effectively makes all his game redundant if he can no longer access, nor update those games, so it does indeed raise the question, what's the point indeed?

Don't be selective, it would be a full time task of checking every single steam workshop A3 addon for the contents, to what point does it become a complete waste of time, if guys like the above are habitual offenders?

What legal right would BI have to suspend a persons steam account, where he can no longer have access to a game he purchased, my guess is none at all, and would be extremely counterproductive, you simply cannot remove a persons right as a paying customer, to remove that product.

It's like a garage coming to take your car away from you for breaking the speed limit. There is no precedent for it.

So it does beggar the question, what's the end game by shutting down addons, that will just reappear again and again and again?

 

[semiconductor 309]

The suspension of a Steam account itself might be a somewhat extreme measure, BI/Valve can just ban a perpetrator from uploading mods to Arma's SW or require his uploads to be approved by the moderator, so BI can eat its cake and have it.

[EO 11227]

Sign of the times i'm afraid......more and more these days growing numbers of people have no respect for another's wishes/views/beliefs.....uploading content to the SW without permission is just another manifestation of this behaviour.

I would hate to think that talented and respected modders feel they are being backed into a corner where their only solution is to either go against their principles and pre-empt these uploads with an official one....OR, take their work underground and distribute to only trusted friends/acquaintances.

In an ideal world Bohemia Interactive would lean on Valve to be less aggressive with their stance and wording of 6A and 6B of the SSA.