Fixed Wing Flight Model (dev branch)

[b00ce 160]

You will notice it, but not with your eyes. You still feel the plane with your body. And since a game cannot represent that, it has to use other ways - visual and audio feedback. So it has to use some ways to give you your awareness of the plane that you have in the real world. The camshake may be to much/to frequent, but there aren't many other ways to give you the feedback (Or the other ways are harder to implement - and Bohemia does not like to implement new features..).

When my helicopter shakes, I definitely notice it with my eyes... Especially if I'm trying to write something down/read notes/looking at my watch and its happening.

[gatordev 215]

I can see what Fennek means (as I came here to post as well) but the problem is that the plane buffets as it should, but you pull hard on the stick there's nothing that really signifies you're doing it, other than the obvious reduction in speed but no sense in departure either from the aircraft or feeling with the stick, it's smooth. Pull hard G's in DCS and you'll feel the resistance in the stick and your "vision" blacking out (in fighters, not the A-10, you'll simply oscillate to the point of departure). But yeah oukej there is no discernible feeling of resistance when pulling tight turns with the Wipeout as despite the buffeting it still was smooth in stick feel. The buffeting is there but stick input is still smooth. Try it in the DCS A-10A for a few seconds (it gets real bad, to the point you have to be firm with the jet as it's not obviously an F-15C/Su-33 or other type of equivalent fighter), where you can do such stuff, not with the A model Warthog.

I can see what you're saying, and yeah, I see how it's not a graduation, but just all or nothing. That said, depending on the aircraft, you may not feel any resistance on the stick, especially fly-by-wire.

The aircraft may buffet, idk (i havent flown a jet personally after all...) but you wont notice it that much because your brain compensates for the movement. It's like walking and looking ahead. Your view doesnt bounce around, your brain automatically compensates for it, because you are looking at a distance object.

That's just not the case. You definitely notice airframe buffet. Is it over-modeled in Arma3? Perhaps, but it's also trying to convey a feeling to you.

The game instead moves the entire image which removes the object you had in focus/ it moves the entire scenery. Therefore your real eye has to refocus on your object you wanted to focus on which is stressfull.

I may not be be understanding what you're intended point is, but what you describe is exactly what happens in a real airplane as you load on Gs.

If you want to simulate vibration like that properly, only the cockpit model has to move if you are looking through the window. And only the environment if you look at the instruments. As you can only determine the eye focus with eye tracking its not possible to do properly. Therefore it should be removed.

See below, but I get your point.

I doubt that the aircraft would shake with a frequency that high in RL. Because high frequent shaking would indicate very turbulent airflow - and highly turbulent airflow on the wings means stall.

No, it's pretty violent at higher Gs. Have a look here (8:50):

It doesn't even have to be all that high of a G load, either (6:34):

I'd guess that's only about a 4 g pullout.

The camera shake needs to be removed from difficulty to gameplay options like head bob. Problem solved. For example in sim racin titles those things aren't tied to difficulty but are optional things to get more immersion.

And there you go. BIS gives the option to the player and then those that don't like it can turn it off.

---------- Post added at 15:42 ---------- Previous post was at 15:41 ----------

When my helicopter shakes, I definitely notice it with my eyes... Especially if I'm trying to write something down/read notes/looking at my watch and its happening.

Which is another point. When a -60 goes through and below translational lift, it shakes like crazy and it's very noticeable. At the bottom of an "energetic" autoration, it shakes like crazy too. So yeah, I agree, the eye still sees the airframe buffet.

[EricJ 724]

Fair enough gatordev, I'm nowhere near a real pilot so good to know...

[x3kj 1247]

So yeah, I agree, the eye still sees the airframe buffet.

Yes the eyes airframe vibrations. But if you look at a distance object it moves far less. It's called perspective. Stand at your window and move your head left and right while looking at a distant object. The building doesnt move. Only the objects close to you move, the closer the more they move.

Ingame the entire image is shifted left and right, uniformly, no matter what distance it is at. And its jerky Thats the problem.

you can see that there is almost zero fluttering at 3 & 4g and a little bit on 5 g. It certainly depends on atmospheric conditions and especially turbulences in the layer of air you are going at. If there are no turbulences in the air layer you will only get shaking when the airflow changes from laminar to turbulent.

A3 planes are not capable of very high g.

A-143 at 600kph can only do 4.9g (and 600kph takes quite a while to accelerat to...). At 400kph its only 4g that is possible.

A-164 at 600kph can only do 4.6g (current version)

To-199 at 900kph is able to do 7.7g but thats basically the maximum speed you can reach in level flight and takes a long time to reach.

At more realistic 700kph its 6.4g

And it does not only start at high g. It shakes basically almost the entire time you are flying, even at 1.5g with the A-164. It's annoying, and it kills all the fun of flying for me. Add to that the Aliasing of cockpit object edges which through the camera shakes starts flickering, which makes it look bad on top of that.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Fennek

[b00ce 160]

Yes the eyes airframe vibrations. But if you look at a distance object it moves far less. It's called perspective. Stand at your window and move your head left and right while looking at a distant object. The building doesnt move. Only the objects close to you move, the closer the more they move.

Ingame the entire image is shifted left and right, uniformly, no matter what distance it is at. And its jerky Thats the problem.

you can see that there is almost zero fluttering at 3 & 4g and a little bit on 5 g. It certainly depends on atmospheric conditions and especially turbulences in the layer of air you are going at. If there are no turbulences in the air layer you will only get shaking when the airflow changes from laminar to turbulent.

A3 planes are not capable of very high g.

A-143 at 600kph can only do 4.9g (and 600kph takes quite a while to accelerat to...). At 400kph its only 4g that is possible.

A-164 at 600kph can only do 4.6g (current version)

To-199 at 900kph is able to do 7.7g but thats basically the maximum speed you can reach in level flight and takes a long time to reach.

At more realistic 700kph its 6.4g

And it does not only start at high g. It shakes basically almost the entire time you are flying, even at 1.5g with the A-164. It's annoying, and it kills all the fun of flying for me. Add to that the Aliasing of cockpit object edges which through the camera shakes starts flickering, which makes it look bad on top of that.

You know you're talking to people with personal experience with aircraft shaking right? (Its said that the only reason a helicopter flies is because it shakes so bad that the earth repels it)

That camera in the Blue Angels plane is bolted into the airframe; of course you're not going to perceive the aircraft shaking, the camera is shaking with it. ;)

As for the handling properties of the planes, that's another story.

[x3kj 1247]

We are not talking about helicopters here b00ce. Helicopters= Rotating 'wings', therefore the loads on each blade oscillates and therefore you will always get vibrations. It's not the same on aircraft.

Look at the planes wing vortex in the video i showed you. Its smooth at 3 and 4 g (tiny fluttering starts), at 5 g it starts to flutter more noticeable-> vibrations. It's called Physics. The vibrations dont just happen, they happen because of a reason. And it doesnt matter if the camera is bolted to the airframe or not. You see the guy shaking thats enough of an indication. If you dont see the person shake then there is no relative movement of crew and airframe-> vibration is not strong enough to be very noticeable visually.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Fennek

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

We are not talking about helicopters here b00ce. Helicopters= Rotating 'wings', therefore the loads on each blade oscillates and therefore you will always get vibrations. It's not the same on aircraft.

Look at the planes wing vortex in the video i showed you. Its smooth at 3 and 4 g (tiny fluttering starts), at 5 g it starts to flutter more noticeable-> vibrations. It's called Physics. The vibrations dont just happen, they happen because of a reason. And it doesnt matter if the camera is bolted to the airframe or not. You see the guy shaking thats enough of an indication. If you dont see the person shake then there is no relative movement of crew and airframe-> vibration is not strong enough to be very noticeable visually.

I was the one who suggested they add in shaking for high G turns in fixed wing. They tweaked it once, but it's still too noticeable when making soft turns and such. It needs to be toned down and only noticeable when I a full speed hard turn. But I may be a bit tedious to get the perfect result

[St. Jimmy 272]

The camera shake needs to be removed from difficulty to gameplay options like head bob. Problem solved. For example in sim racin titles those things aren't tied to difficulty but are optional things to get more immersion.

I made a ticket about this: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=21609 Even though the shake might not be realistic it's authentic for me and I like how it's currently. Just a simple thing to do for the devs.

[x3kj 1247]

I'm much in favor of this suggestion. I cant stand the shaking as it is now

Edited November 8, 2014 by Fennek

[gatordev 215]

Yes the eyes airframe vibrations. But if you look at a distance object it moves far less. It's called perspective. Stand at your window and move your head left and right while looking at a distant object. The building doesnt move. Only the objects close to you move, the closer the more they move.

Ingame the entire image is shifted left and right, uniformly, no matter what distance it is at. And its jerky Thats the problem.

Got it and now I understand what you're saying. Yes, not entirely realistic, but neither is how NVDs are modeled in game. But we have to live within the limits of the game engine.

you can see that there is almost zero fluttering at 3 & 4g and a little bit on 5 g. It certainly depends on atmospheric conditions and especially turbulences in the layer of air you are going at. If there are no turbulences in the air layer you will only get shaking when the airflow changes from laminar to turbulent.

A3 planes are not capable of very high g.

A-143 at 600kph can only do 4.9g (and 600kph takes quite a while to accelerat to...). At 400kph its only 4g that is possible.

A-164 at 600kph can only do 4.6g (current version)

To-199 at 900kph is able to do 7.7g but thats basically the maximum speed you can reach in level flight and takes a long time to reach.

At more realistic 700kph its 6.4g

None of which really matters. As you stated, it's the flow that matters, not just specifically the G load. I would regularly demo a Skidded-Turn Stall to students in the T-34C. To give some background, the T-34 has the capability of rapid G-onset, but can't hold it for very long (only a few seconds). It also was limited to +4.5G. But when I would do the STS, I could get the airframe to buffet very noticeably before departing controlled flight (the maneuver was intended to scare the kids to respect the Skidded Turn Stall), and that was at 100 knots and maybe, maybe 2Gs.

And it does not only start at high g. It shakes basically almost the entire time you are flying, even at 1.5g with the A-164. It's annoying, and it kills all the fun of flying for me. Add to that the Aliasing of cockpit object edges which through the camera shakes starts flickering, which makes it look bad on top of that.

At the end of the day, if it's not fun, then that's what matters. Again, a simple option to turn it on or off seems like the best way to make us both happy.

[x3kj 1247]

I would regularly demo a Skidded-Turn Stall

Ok hadnt thought of flow separation during stalls when writing the post. The g load i listed is just for a regular banking turn, pulling as hard as possible - which is propably the more common situation. In A3 we dont even have situations where you can stall because of turning physics. Only airspeed matters independant of turn situation. Heck we dont even have a FM that can do a regular banked turn...

[EricJ 724]

Just a small thing devs, maybe for the default pilot loadout could you simply add a set of NVGs? I know (and I use VAS) to ensure I have them but you know for using Zeus placed aircraft just in case?

[Mitsu_ 75]

You know there's fixed-winglib from the same developer as rotorlib?

Jets DLC HYPE!

http://www.rtdynamics.com/v2/wp/2008/fixedwinglib/

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

You know there's fixed-winglib from the same developer as rotorlib?

Jets DLC HYPE!

http://www.rtdynamics.com/v2/wp/2008/fixedwinglib/

It's been brought up many times, but i can guarantee they're not going to completely overhaul the flight dynamics with this. The next biggest, but simple thing for them to do to improve Fixed Wing, would be first Throttle Control being the same as with the Helicopters with Advanced, which would make controlling the aircraft in general, best for both Keyboard/Mouse and Joystick/Gear users. Than, If they can fixed their work a rounds for physics involved in bank turns, that would be another big improvement.

[EricJ 724]

BTW oukej, no issues with the stick so obviously no feedback tracker entry yet, just so you know.

[blackpixxel 53]

Do you also get a kind of input-delay in every vehicle, which is most visible in jets for me?

To try this, just map ailerons or elevator to your keyboard. Then look at the ingame-joystick while flying and press one of the keys. The movement of the ingame-stick is always very delayed (about 1/4 - 1/2 second), and the same delay is there of course for the plane movement. I have this delay in jets and helicopters, not tried it for cars yet. But I can definetly say that it is an ingame problem. Because: When I increase the time speed via '´', the delay is nearly not noticeable. I think that the increased time-speed also affects the delay, so that the delay is 4 times faster and so less noticeable.

I really would like to know if anyone else has similar problems, or if I am the only one. If this is an Arma-issue, it should really become addressed by the devs.

[Healbeam 10]

I have those delay issues, too. Maybe it's just a bug with how the controls are animated? There being delay between your inputs and the aircraft actually moving is realistic. Gameplay-wise it's fine for me though, just a minor visual bug.

--

Totally different topic, does anyone else feel like the jets have way too much air resistance? In DCS, I can dive ten degrees and gain speed really fast. In ArmA 3, even a 45 degree dive only causes a slow increase in speed. This makes energy fights and "boom and zoom" pointless, as I can dive down on my target, but not have enough airspeed to get up again.

[blackpixxel 53]

I don't think it is an animation bug, because the plane moves at the same time when the controls move. And I don't see why it should be realistic to have such a delay in a modern fighter plane. And even if, why should we have a realistic delay for a poor flight model?

I hope this get fixed soon, because it really ruins my helicopter experience with the new helicopter flight model.

[Healbeam 10]

If the plane really does move at the same time when the controls move, that has to be an animation bug. Real aircraft don't react to control inputs instantaneously either. Yes, the delay is very slight, but it's there, even moreso with helicopters. That's why PIO (pilot-induced oscillations) are a thing. You always have to think ahead of the helicopter to avoid over- or undercorrecting.

The way it should be is that the animated controls in the cockpit should move at the same time as your real hardware, however the aircraft only starts moving a few fractions of a second later.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I have those delay issues, too. Maybe it's just a bug with how the controls are animated? There being delay between your inputs and the aircraft actually moving is realistic. Gameplay-wise it's fine for me though, just a minor visual bug.

--

Totally different topic, does anyone else feel like the jets have way too much air resistance? In DCS, I can dive ten degrees and gain speed really fast. In ArmA 3, even a 45 degree dive only causes a slow increase in speed. This makes energy fights and "boom and zoom" pointless, as I can dive down on my target, but not have enough airspeed to get up again.

Confirmed. I must climb to 4000 and a good distance from a target in order to pull off the Boom/Zoom Maneuver.

[EricJ 724]

Deleted.

Edited November 16, 2014 by EricJ

[EricJ 724]

Also a sound nitpick... there are some good sounds via DCS (A-10A/C-wise) to recommend for the sound when dispensing flares, and here's some detail of the A-10A's wing dispenser stations. I don't know where to assume the dispenser locations (I guess they're just in the tail given the memory points?) but this may help in some 3D model improvements as well:

http://562.50megs.com/DCS/wip91.jpg

[havatan19 10]

when i call jets via zeus fire support, the jets "lags" while flying even if the FPS is decent, even on empty stratis map with no units.

same when dropping bombs with jet, the bombs "lags" while flying to the ground, anyone noticed it ?

[EDcase 87]

havatan19: Sounds like your problem is related to this thread.

1.34 seems to have affected flying related fps/smoothness

[oukej 2910]

@ havatan19 / EDcase - More probably it's this issue: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18680 . The stuttering/freezes is a sound issue, overall lower FPS is a particle issue. Our audio programmer has been tackling the stuttering and on Friday evening he had a fix ready. It should be deployed to the dev branch soon.