Fixed Wing Flight Model (dev branch)

[EricJ 724]

What do you mean?

Well the previous version of our tweak disabled the analog setting (or maybe wasn't intended) but you can use the "regular" thrust settings/mappings. I love the new FM settings but I like the analog thrust version much better.

[oukej 2910]

...the only thing I noticed is that the rudder pedals have almost no effect.

Please try it on the dev branch ;) Should be the other way around. (but be aware that AI doesn't know how to cope with it)

Well the previous version of our tweak disabled the analog setting (or maybe wasn't intended) but you can use the "regular" thrust settings/mappings. I love the new FM settings but I like the analog thrust version much better.

Uh, admittedly now I am completely confused. You mean this tweaked Wipeout FM config in my workshop? There has been only one iteration so far. It shouldn't disable any analog input, so definitely it wasn't intended. You should be able to use both normal and analog throttle with it just fine. Maybe a bug? (There's a nasty one we're fighting where the analog input gets lost in the middle of the game - http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14924. Could've been caused by it?

Edited November 1, 2014 by oukej

[EricJ 724]

Ahh gotcha... no thanks though (sounds cool but it's not raising my skirt) as far as dev branch goes... Sure there's some good stuff but I can wait.

[the_demongod 31]

Please try it on the dev branch ;) Should be the other way around. (but be aware that AI doesn't know how to cope with it)

Hmm, I was on dev branch when I tried it. Could it have something to do with my control setup? I use analog rudder control.

EDIT: Never mind, just tested it again and it's working great. Don't know what the problem was before. It feels really nice, will we ever see it implemented in-game?

EDIT 2: I tried it again today and it was messed up, not registering any rudder input once I took off. I quit the game, cycled the mod off and on again and it worked. It's kinda hit or miss, is it on my/the workshop's end or is it something in the mod?

Edited November 2, 2014 by the_Demongod

[oukej 2910]

EDIT 2: I tried it again today and it was messed up, not registering any rudder input once I took off. I quit the game, cycled the mod off and on again and it worked. It's kinda hit or miss, is it on my/the workshop's end or is it something in the mod?

Can you tell whether in that case the Wipeout's FM wasn't overwritten by the mod at all or was the FM correctly altered except of the rudder that went broken?

[EricJ 724]

Please try it on the dev branch ;) Should be the other way around. (but be aware that AI doesn't know how to cope with it)

Uh, admittedly now I am completely confused. You mean this tweaked Wipeout FM config in my workshop? There has been only one iteration so far. It shouldn't disable any analog input, so definitely it wasn't intended. You should be able to use both normal and analog throttle with it just fine. Maybe a bug? (There's a nasty one we're fighting where the analog input gets lost in the middle of the game - http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14924. Could've been caused by it?

Man missed this like an Imperial Stormtrooper... I've been noticing that the throttle is dropping out without the mod, as I was doing some FCLPs and all of a sudden I lost throttle and ran into a fence (took a screenshot, real smooth :) ) but I re apply throttle, which is I guess the problem of the analog brake, it cuts throttle so that may have been the fence bender I went through that caused it, just bad timing on the reflexes. But overall I switched back to the regular thrust and it's more stable for the most part. I need to resubscribe to get the FM (starting to miss it) and see how it is now, but I'll post results ASAP.

---------- Post added at 16:50 ---------- Previous post was at 16:30 ----------

Okay I redownloaded the Wipeout mod and for some reason or other (everything works as it should) but it disabled my weapon selection Button number 9, on my Thrustmaster Hotas X, game is stable version. But when I press that button it registers as "T.Hotas X X" rather than button 9, so not sure why its happening (not touching any other button or moving anything around). So on the ground it doesn't work but once I hit the air or move it selects a weapon, so right now it's a bit buggy on my end (rudder seemed fine but that weapon selection issue is an issue for me) as far as that is concerned. So I think it's good but the joystick issue is something that I'm not sure why it's happening on stable branch. Of course it may be that I'm not on dev, and if that's the reason then that's explainable as I'm sure the Demongod isn't having button issues (at least I don't think so).

---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 16:50 ----------

Disregard... for some reason the game is crossed so I was able to map the button fine but Button 9 is bugged, and it's not the game or your mod. But then again I flew last night and hadn't touched the game until just now... so may be an issue to look into?

---------- Post added at 17:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:58 ----------

Okay and another issue, when I took off I did a hard right turn to start practicing some weapons test and tried to bank left... no joy as I could only turn right and well... crashed. So I did some further exploration and maybe the mod jacked up my system as I removed (except for a few commands) all stick entries, exited the game and unplugged it, and reset all the buttons which worked. So I think not being on dev put the game to reverse those two buttons (9 was left bank while the stick input left became button 9, which of course isn't right). So the FM to me is good but I'll wait until the next patch.

Edited November 3, 2014 by EricJ

[the_demongod 31]

Can you tell whether in that case the Wipeout's FM wasn't overwritten by the mod at all or was the FM correctly altered except of the rudder that went broken?

It would seem as if just the rudder was broken. I remember clearly feeling the difference on take off, the more fluid controls and such, and the aircraft would give the red-text speed stall "warning" even at high speeds in a hard turn (the normal FM doesn't do this), but the rudder had absolutely no effect at all. My friend also experienced this issue.

Hopefully this helps to shed some light on the problem.

[oukej 2910]

@Eric - That are some strange issues you are experiencing there. One fix that is on Dev but not on Stable could play a role in this. Could please start a FT ticket if you still experience problems once the next stable is released? (please also add screenshots from your controls mapping. I have a TM Hotas here on my desk, but I've never experienced a button mapped as "T.Hotas X X")

The mod is a simple overwrite of couple of FM properties in Wipeout's config. It should not affect the input by any mean.

@Demongod - thanks. Btw, do you use pedals? Couldn't this http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14924 be also the cause?

---

Thanks all for the feedback about the Wipeout. What do you think about the landing speed, take-off speed, flaps effect, maneuverability, roll rate, climb rate, thrust, glide, control surfaces response, envelope, lift, climb/descend tendency in different speed, etc.?

[x3kj 1247]

the normal FM

Flightmodel is still the same, its just a config parameter change.

meh beaten to it

[the_demongod 31]

@Demongod - thanks. Btw, do you use pedals? Couldn't this http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14924 be also the cause?

I do use pedals, but I have actually never encountered that bug myself. My friend owns both a Logitech Attack 3D and a Saitek x55 Pro and experiences this regularly, but I use the old Logitech Attack 3 and CH Pro Pedals and for some reason it doesn't happen for me. Maybe it has to do with the fact that my equipment was made closer to the time that the engine (and therefore controller compatibility) was created?

Thanks all for the feedback about the Wipeout. What do you think about the landing speed, take-off speed, flaps effect, maneuverability, roll rate, climb rate, thrust, glide, control surfaces response, envelope, lift, climb/descend tendency in different speed, etc.?

It feels much better overall, more like a plane that in did before. The best part is the less-responsive controls and the more limited maneuverability, followed closely by the new take-off speeds. It feels much more like the actual A-10 should. I do play DCS A-10 and I will play them side by side for a better comparison (it's kinda hard to think about the individual aspects right off the top of your head :P) but overall it's a huge improvement.

[EricJ 724]

@Eric - That are some strange issues you are experiencing there. One fix that is on Dev but not on Stable could play a role in this. Could please start a FT ticket if you still experience problems once the next stable is released? (please also add screenshots from your controls mapping. I have a TM Hotas here on my desk, but I've never experienced a button mapped as "T.Hotas X X")

The mod is a simple overwrite of couple of FM properties in Wipeout's config. It should not affect the input by any mean.

@Demongod - thanks. Btw, do you use pedals? Couldn't this http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14924 be also the cause?

No problem will do oukej... but my stick has a slider on the throttle slider which I use for helicopters so that's why it shows up like that. But the problem cropped up again but I'd be lying if I knew what the issue was as it started yesterday and could have been your mini mod or not as the only other addon I used from the Arma 3 Launcher was the FC-37 but that's about it.

[x3kj 1247]

i would check if your controll settings are still the same after the branch switching...

[parkourperson 10]

The flight model right now is very unrealistic and unique of other games.

It feels as if jets are gliding through the air.

If you roll your plane to the right or left, it doesn't move.

I suggest for there to be more improvements in the flight model to match that of other games such as GTA 5, Battlefield 3 or 4, War Thunder, or even flight simulation games such as Flight Simulator X or X-Plane.

Some suggestions include:

1. Weight

2. Wind and pressure

3. Flaps improvement

4. Rolling improvements

They should first change how it handles under stall situation, add the rest of the damage model (engine/gear/fuel) etc. Also they should have a lot more acceleration than they currently do. Also don't ever use gta v as an example for flying, its incredibly unrealistic...

[Polymath820 11]

There is only so much realism that can be created, although I would like to get maybe. Landing gear, fault (damaged hydraulic system) Compressor stall (Altitude Oxygen deprivation) Engine loses all power. And can't re-ignite the engine. Many improvements could be made. And Bohemia could use the RTD Dynamics fixed Wing Model

http://www.rtdynamics.com/v2/wp/2008/fixedwinglib/

So if Bohemia are going to addon a helicopter FDM why not the fixed wing too?

Edited November 6, 2014 by Polymath820

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

There is only so much realism that can be created, although I would like to get maybe. Landing gear, fault (damaged hydraulic system) Compressor stall (Altitude Oxygen deprivation) Engine loses all power. And can't re-ignite the engine. Many improvements could be made. And Bohemia could use the RTD Dynamics fixed Wing Model

http://www.rtdynamics.com/v2/wp/2008/fixedwinglib/

So if Bohemia are going to addon a helicopter FDM why not the fixed wing too?

TMP = Time, Man-Power, Priorities.

Also, who ever said GTA flight physics are realistic... Why the heck? Ok for one thing Arma 3's current model which we are try to fix is actually more realistic than GTA V's flight model. Besides that, there are a few things that can be improved of the flight models of each plane by research, which in fact they might have already done. It's to be more important to enhance on what we have, based on the aircraft we currently have in game. Yak-131, L-159, A-10S... Anyhow, though.

[five_seven5-7 56]

Thanks all for the feedback about the Wipeout. What do you think about the landing speed, take-off speed, flaps effect, maneuverability, roll rate, climb rate, thrust, glide, control surfaces response, envelope, lift, climb/descend tendency in different speed, etc.?

It behaves more like plane, but from what i`ve been reading the plane isnt like a jet fighter.

If we take in account that the weight isnt variable, we may assume the plane have the maximum take-off weight, if so the plane cant pull many G`s, have a high climb rate, high AoA,etc..

Thats why important to have to:

- Constant thrust like FSX and other sims not having to hold the thrust button.

- Seperate button for speed brake (CAS, landing), wheel brake (full thrust in take-off)

During weekend i will conduct more tests.

References:

http://wiki.flightgear.org/A-10_Thunderbolt_II_FDM

http://wiki.flightgear.org/A-10_Thunderbolt_II_FDM

A-10 flight manual and performance data

[oukej 2910]

It behaves more like plane, but from what i`ve been reading the plane isnt like a jet fighter.

If we take in account that the weight isnt variable, we may assume the plane have the maximum take-off weight, if so the plane cant pull many G`s, have a high climb rate, high AoA,etc..

I wouldn't say maximum, but let's consider some combat 80-90%. We can also assume that Wipeout can be somewhat superior to A10.

During weekend i will conduct more tests.

Looking forwad to it!

[x3kj 1247]

Please remove the high frequent camera shaking when g force > 1 is present. It's not realistic and is stressfull for the eye. Make growing black borders if you want the player to receive some feedback, but not random cam shaking. Also, the CSAT plane has a pilot animation where the head wobbles around the entire time.

[gatordev 214]

Please remove the high frequent camera shaking when g force > 1 is present. It's not realistic and is stressfull for the eye. Make growing black borders if you want the player to receive some feedback, but not random cam shaking.

I'm curious what makes you say this. When you pull G in a fixed-wing aircraft, the airframe buffets. It probably shouldn't happen at 2G, but it happens as you start to load the aircraft. On the helo side, it's modeled pretty well because the same idea applies to the head, but on the fixed wing side, it still gives some input that you're pushing it near the edge of departure.

[EricJ 724]

I can see what Fennek means (as I came here to post as well) but the problem is that the plane buffets as it should, but you pull hard on the stick there's nothing that really signifies you're doing it, other than the obvious reduction in speed but no sense in departure either from the aircraft or feeling with the stick, it's smooth. Pull hard G's in DCS and you'll feel the resistance in the stick and your "vision" blacking out (in fighters, not the A-10, you'll simply oscillate to the point of departure). But yeah oukej there is no discernible feeling of resistance when pulling tight turns with the Wipeout as despite the buffeting it still was smooth in stick feel. The buffeting is there but stick input is still smooth. Try it in the DCS A-10A for a few seconds (it gets real bad, to the point you have to be firm with the jet as it's not obviously an F-15C/Su-33 or other type of equivalent fighter), where you can do such stuff, not with the A model Warthog.

But key commands were saved from the previous patch but thanks for the heads up Fennek...

[x3kj 1247]

I'm curious what makes you say this.

The aircraft may buffet, idk (i havent flown a jet personally after all...) but you wont notice it that much because your brain compensates for the movement. It's like walking and looking ahead. Your view doesnt bounce around, your brain automatically compensates for it, because you are looking at a distance object.

The game instead moves the entire image which removes the object you had in focus/ it moves the entire scenery. Therefore your real eye has to refocus on your object you wanted to focus on which is stressfull. If you want to simulate vibration like that properly, only the cockpit model has to move if you are looking through the window. And only the environment if you look at the instruments. As you can only determine the eye focus with eye tracking its not possible to do properly. Therefore it should be removed.

I doubt that the aircraft would shake with a frequency that high in RL. Because high frequent shaking would indicate very turbulent airflow - and highly turbulent airflow on the wings means stall.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Fennek

[St. Jimmy 272]

The camera shake needs to be removed from difficulty to gameplay options like head bob. Problem solved. For example in sim racin titles those things aren't tied to difficulty but are optional things to get more immersion.

[blackpixxel 53]

The aircraft may buffet, idk (i havent flown a jet personally after all...) but you wont notice it because your brain compensates for the movement.

You will notice it, but not with your eyes. You still feel the plane with your body. And since a game cannot represent that, it has to use other ways - visual and audio feedback. So it has to use some ways to give you your awareness of the plane that you have in the real world. The camshake may be to much/to frequent, but there aren't many other ways to give you the feedback (Or the other ways are harder to implement - and Bohemia does not like to implement new features..).

[x3kj 1247]

yes obviously you cant experience it with your body. Faking it with another presentation is fundamentally wrong however. The human body reacts very sensible to such wrong feedbacks and results in motionsickness (some persons are more prone to it then others). This is a common problem in simulators. And the visual representation of "cam shake" is wrong. If you look at Flightsims... none of those has it, and if that's the case you should ask yourself why that is. It shakes the entire image and not the camera position. It feels extremely fake, so why keep it? Better spend work on the actual flight model itself instead of trying to fake stuff that isn't there by putting a shaking image on everything.

If you want to give feedback of high G give us the visual effects you get with g stress on the human body. Loss of individual colors up to black/white (greyout) and narrowed peripheral vision. Thats good enough and alot more noticeable & gameplay affecting then a silly flickering screen that just makes you feel unconfortable.

You also have turbulences when flying level (especially close to the ground) - everyone who flew in an airplane knows that when you are starting/landing it gets rougher. Flying turns just increases the amplitude of those turbulences because the wing is on higher load. So if you are realistic about this you would also have to implement shaking in level flight making it completely unpleasant to play.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Fennek

[five_seven5-7 56]

You will notice it, but not with your eyes. You still feel the plane with your body. And since a game cannot represent that, it has to use other ways - visual and audio feedback. So it has to use some ways to give you your awareness of the plane that you have in the real world. The cam-shake may be to much/to frequent, but there aren't many other ways to give you the feedback (Or the other ways are harder to implement - and Bohemia does not like to implement new features..).

That`s right but there are some new products like the butt kicker, to increase the experience. it was also good the devs to differentiate the camera shakes in several types of vibration (Amplitude, frequency) depending on the occasion (landing/take-off in concrete/gravel;low G`s ; high G`s; flying damaged plane).