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Tanks - Fire-control system

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It would work well enough when, like in ArmA II, the gun points at 12 when the crew is turned out (safe mode) Problem is and was with vehicles that have no gunner hatch.

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1 hour ago, Beagle said:

It would work well enough when, like in ArmA II, the gun points at 12 when the crew is turned out (safe mode) Problem is and was with vehicles that have no gunner hatch.

 

i disagree. now with being turned out being really useful and not only cosmetic as in previous titles, i believe that a "stowed" gun, should not be tied to gunner hatch status.

 

but since the gun-at-12-lock did already work in previous titles, it should be very easy put it back in with a user action for the gunner. for A.I. it could be tied to combat status (safe = locked). the only real work involved, would be an optional UI implementation.

 

i think however, that a toggle for stabilization would be even better than a toggle for barrel-lock. i think both would do though!

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Not sure if it's been brought up already but one thing that really needs to come back is the direct fire mode for Artillery/Rocket Systems.

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19 minutes ago, darksidesixofficial said:

Not sure if it's been brought up already but one thing that really needs to come back is the direct fire mode for Artillery/Rocket Systems.

 

This! IRL US Paladins are (at least theoretically) capable of being used as WW2-style tank-hunters (the bigger stick approach) w. appropriate rounds.

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On 3/1/2018 at 12:34 AM, twistking said:

 

i disagree. now with being turned out being really useful and not only cosmetic as in previous titles, i believe that a "stowed" gun, should not be tied to gunner hatch status.

 

but since the gun-at-12-lock did already work in previous titles, it should be very easy put it back in with a user action for the gunner. for A.I. it could be tied to combat status (safe = locked). the only real work involved, would be an optional UI implementation.

 

i think however, that a toggle for stabilization would be even better than a toggle for barrel-lock. i think both would do though!

This feature is really needed for running operations with vehicle crews. Over longer periods it gets really tiresome for the gunner having to continuously turn the turret the way the chassis is directed when he is turned in and nothing is going on. There should definitely be a way to lock the turret at 12-o-clock.

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i just came up with a very simple solution to the problem, that wouldn't need ui-implementation but would be more immersive than having "turret lock" or "stabilization on/off" in the action menu:

 

when in the gunner seat you could use the key command for "lower weapon" (default: 2*ctrl) to take your hands off the controls. you would then move into the default "passenger stance" with hands on your lap (idk about animations in arma, but transition from two predefined stances should be just code work, no new animating work needed, i hope).

as long as you are in this stance the turret would lock to 12 o clock, or would just hold current position. hitting the command for "raise weapon" (default: left mouse button) would transition you back into default gunnenr stance with hands on controls and control authority over the turret.

 

for AI the turret status would still just depent on combat mode (safe = locked).

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I believe there is actually a keybind to toggle turret stabilisation somewhere in the options.

Not totally sure what it does though.

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i think, that is for aircraft turrets ground tracking (default: ctrl+t).

it has no effect on tank turrets whatsoever!

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@oukej

 

One important note before Tanks DLC will be released, and it's a simple config adjustement. It's connected either with vehicles damage and firepower, so if it's not a proper topic please move it in to proper one.

 

So the the point. Vehicles in general should have at least several reloads of ammunition for their machine guns or autocannons. Just an example.

 

M2A1/M2A4 Slammer should have around 8000 rounds for their coaxial machine guns.

 

APC's like IFV-6c Panther or MSE-3 Marid, at least something like 2000-4000 machine gun rounds and around 500 or more 40mm GMG rounds.

 

IFV's like AMV-7, Kamysh, Mora and in general IFV's armed with autocannon, coaxial MG and optional ATGM's should have something like 400 to 900 30mm or 40mm autocannon rounds, for example ratio can be like 50/50 in some designs, or a different ratio where for example we have 70 AP to 230 HE rounds (it's just an example ratio) as existing vehicle magazines can be used. I will give an example.

 

If AMV-7 have:

 

1x 60Rnd_40mm_GPR_Tracer_Red_shells

1x 40Rnd_40mm_APFSDS_Tracer_Red_shells

1x 2000Rnd_65x39_belt

1x SmokeLauncherMag

 

It should look like this:

 

5x 60Rnd_40mm_GPR_Tracer_Red_shells

5x 40Rnd_40mm_APFSDS_Tracer_Red_shells

2x 2000Rnd_65x39_belt

2x SmokeLauncherMag

 

In such case vehicle have increased survivability because it's ammunition won't go dry too fast, it will gain in time of which it can stay on the battlefield, and also gain in terms of firepower. It's also far more realistic.

 

I will provide here other examples, how ammo storage should look like.

 

IFV-6c:

 

1x 96Rnd_40mm_G_belt

1x 500Rnd_127x99_mag_Tracer_Red

1x SmokeLauncherMag

 

After adjustement:

 

5x 96Rnd_40mm_G_belt

4x 500Rnd_127x99_mag_Tracer_Red

2x SmokeLauncherMag

 

M2A1 Slammer:

 

1x 32Rnd_120mm_APFSDS_shells_Tracer_Red

1x 16Rnd_120mm_HE_shells_Tracer_Red

2x 2000Rnd_65x39_belt

1x SmokeLauncherMag

 

(Note!!! A real Merkava Mk4M stores 64 rounds of ammunition for it's 120mm gun, suggestion is to increase HE rounds from 16 to 30 or 32.)

 

After adjustement:

 

1x 32Rnd_120mm_APFSDS_shells_Tracer_Red

1x 16Rnd_120mm_HE_shells_Tracer_Red (Preferable increase to 30/32 HE rounds : 1x 30/32Rnd_120mm_HE_shells_Tracer_Red)

4x 2000Rnd_65x39_belt

2x SmokeLauncherMag

 

M2A4 Slammer UP:

 

1x 40Rnd_105mm_APFSDS_T_Red

1x 20Rnd_105mm_HEAT_MP_T_Red

2x 2000Rnd_65x39_belt

2x 500Rnd_127x99_mag_Tracer_Red

1x SmokeLauncherMag

 

After adjustement:

 

1x 40Rnd_105mm_APFSDS_T_Red

1x 20Rnd_105mm_HEAT_MP_T_Red

4x 2000Rnd_65x39_belt

2x 500Rnd_127x99_mag_Tracer_Red

2x SmokeLauncherMag

 

Mora:

 

1x 140Rnd_30mm_MP_shells_Tracer_Yellow

1x 60Rnd_30mm_APFSDS_shells_Tracer_Yellow

2x 1000Rnd_762x51_Belt_Yellow

1x SmokeLauncherMag

 

After adjustement:

 

5x 140Rnd_30mm_MP_shells_Tracer_Yellow

5x 60Rnd_30mm_APFSDS_shells_Tracer_Yellow

2x 1000Rnd_762x51_Belt_Yellow

2x SmokeLauncherMag

 

Gorgon:

 

1x 140Rnd_30mm_MP_shells_Tracer_Yellow

1x 60Rnd_30mm_APFSDS_shells_Tracer_Yellow

1x 1000Rnd_65x39_Belt_Yellow

1x 2Rnd_GAT_missiles

1x SmokeLauncherMag

 

After Adjustement:

 

5x 140Rnd_30mm_MP_shells_Tracer_Yellow

5x 60Rnd_30mm_APFSDS_shells_Tracer_Yellow

2x 1000Rnd_65x39_Belt_Yellow

2x 2Rnd_GAT_missiles

2x SmokeLauncherMag

 

Kamysh:

 

1x 140Rnd_30mm_MP_shells_Tracer_Green

1x 60Rnd_30mm_APFSDS_shells_Tracer_Green

1x 1000Rnd_65x39_Belt_Green

1x 2Rnd_GAT_missiles

1x SmokeLauncherMag

 

After adjustement:

 

5x 140Rnd_30mm_MP_shells_Tracer_Green

5x 60Rnd_30mm_APFSDS_shells_Tracer_Green

2x 1000Rnd_65x39_Belt_Green

2x 2Rnd_GAT_missiles

2x SmokeLauncherMag

 

Marid:

 

1x 96Rnd_40mm_G_belt

1x 500Rnd_127x99_mag_Tracer_Green

1x SmokeLauncherMag

 

After adjustement:

 

5x 96Rnd_40mm_G_belt

4x 500Rnd_127x99_mag_Tracer_Green

2x SmokeLauncherMag

 

Various armed MRAPs like Hunter, Ifrit and Strider also should have increased ammo loadouts for 5x of their mags for reloads.

 

It should be a quiet simple task by simply copy pasting this in to vehicle configs, but I think would be most welcome by players as usefull and also realistic improvement. Cheers.

 

PS. Oh and by the way, the magazine reload itself can be adjusted so it won't be instant and will force players to find a calm, covered spot to reload their vehicles weapons.

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2 hours ago, Damian90 said:

While an increase in ammo capacity for LAVs would be nice, I think  500+ 30mm rounds is a bit too much, looking at the LAV-25 it can carry roughly 200 rounds of 25mm ammo, the pandur 2 (Gorgon) can only carry 140 HE and 60 AP rounds plus 250 odd 7.62s.

 

Not opposed to increasing their loads bit though.

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4 hours ago, scavenjer said:

While an increase in ammo capacity for LAVs would be nice, I think  500+ 30mm rounds is a bit too much, looking at the LAV-25 it can carry roughly 200 rounds of 25mm ammo, the pandur 2 (Gorgon) can only carry 140 HE and 60 AP rounds plus 250 odd 7.62s.

 

Not opposed to increasing their loads bit though.

he was talking about ammunition stored in vehicle, not in the turret itself

about that pandur trash, yes, 200 rounds are in the turret, but another 150+ are stored in the vehicle, + more then 1000 into 7.62.

fully loaded LAV-25 has 210 fire-ready 25mm rounds(400 7.62), but another 420 25mm(1200 7.62) are stored in the vehicle, i remember there was a post from a real driver/gunner of lav25(not sure now) on this forum about this

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Also, considering the work and research @Damian90 has obviously went trough on the topic, I am sure we can trust his suggestions are true to life, at least as far as unclassified information goes :)

 

Tell me, are you RHS dev Damian? Would be surprised if not...

 

9 hours ago, scavenjer said:

Not opposed to increasing their loads bit though.

 

I find that the Marshall, gorgon and BTR Kamysh all run out of AP ammo WAY too fast in vanilla ArmA 3. 60 rounds is just nothing. 

 

I could easily see an increase like Damian suggests, but there should be some authentic or realistic reload times for these magazines. I am unaware how the ammunition is stored. If it's stored freely, then each round probably has to be manually fed into a feeding system/magazine - which can take several minutes. If they are stored in "clips" though, (like the WW2 40mm bofors could do), then reloading may be shortened significantly. Belted ammo may also reduce reload time, especially if there is an automatic feed system (meaning the crew only has to guide the belt so it doesn't catch something inside the vehicle).

 

I really don't know exactly how one goes about reloading the turret in said vehicles, but I do know that it most likely is not done in the heat of the combat, which means you have to withdraw temporarily in order to rearm the turret.

Edited by Strike_NOR
Typo

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@Strike_NOR

 

Yes I am RHS member. I am mostly responsible for research and tests for our AFV's.

 

Also I work as a military journalist for NTW - Nowa Technika Wojskowa (New Military Technology) magazine in Poland.

 

And besides that I am former Polish Armed Forces reserve (ground forces) of 1st Battalion, 25th Air Cavalry Brigade. 

 

Besides that I am also having friends among service men of our allied countries including former and still serving crew members of various AFV types.

 

Another thing, Kuma should have increased coaxial machine gun ammo from 2000 to 4000 + 2x smoke dischargers reloads.

 

Varsuk is ok only additional smoke dischargers reload would be good thing to add.

 

When it comes to modern IFV's, their autocannons use either belts or or linkless feed system where you only replace ammo boxes connected to autocannons feed system.

 

However reload takes some time up to a minute or more depending on design solution.

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4 hours ago, SzepyCZ said:

he was talking about ammunition stored in vehicle, not in the turret itself

about that pandur trash, yes, 200 rounds are in the turret, but another 150+ are stored in the vehicle, + more then 1000 into 7.62.

fully loaded LAV-25 has 210 fire-ready 25mm rounds(400 7.62), but another 420 25mm(1200 7.62) are stored in the vehicle, i remember there was a post from a real driver/gunner of lav25(not sure now) on this forum about this

It'd be interesting to see where they stow that, that's still less than 800 rounds though.

Although not by as much as I initially thought.

Can they carry passengers while also carrying all that ammunition?

 

I remember some IDF member on this forum showing that the Merkava can't carry a full load of ammunition if it's carrying passengers, I wonder if something similar can be seen with these LAVs.

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2 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

It'd be interesting to see where they stow that, that's still less than 800 rounds though.

Although not by as much as I initially thought.

Can they carry passengers while also carrying all that ammunition?

 

I remember some IDF member on this forum showing that the Merkava can't carry a full load of ammunition if it's carrying passengers, I wonder if something similar can be seen with these LAVs.

about merkava thats true, 22(i think) rounds are in the autoloader and next are stored in passenger space

 

in pandur there is a special place right after the last front passenger seat at left side, thats where the ammo is stored

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We have plans for adjusting vehicle loadouts in similar way, however Encoding and Tech Design are flooded with work at the moment. Some of the planned changes would not be backwards compatible (6.5mm coax > 7.62mm coax, Slammer UP 105mm > 120mm), requiring more intern discussions and decisions before we take action.

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51 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

It'd be interesting to see where they stow that, that's still less than 800 rounds though.

Although not by as much as I initially thought.

Can they carry passengers while also carrying all that ammunition?

 

I remember some IDF member on this forum showing that the Merkava can't carry a full load of ammunition if it's carrying passengers, I wonder if something similar can be seen with these LAVs.

 

In many IFV's storage for autocannon ammo and coaxial MG ammo is in the hull belly under a false floor and side hull sponsons. For example in M2 Bradley series it looks like this:

 

1347fb58fe17684ab2366885856ecb101b3345af

e9cbe5160ea68f8b662eadde90ddf6fc146b5774

fddcddffe6c409ba8cc56e4be8474fb3ad3867d5

 

In case of Merkava Mk4 10 rounds are stored in isolated ammo storage in turret bustle with blow off panels, while rest of ammunition is stored in the hull rear + in front of turret basket mounted to the engine compartment fire proof bulkhead in lightly armored fire proof containers.

 

mglWpUv.jpg

Ng60hrv.jpg

 

As a bonus, interior of Merkava Mk3, these brown things are containers for 120mm main gun rounds.

 

 

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So if the Merkava carries full load it shouldn't be able to carry passengers?

Hmm...

I think the two coders already have plenty of stuff to work on though, so I'm not going to suggest to change something as irrelevant as the ability to carry passengers with full ammunition load. :)

 

Though it might be useful for us to get pictures of where the ammunition is located inside various of the LAVs, if they do get around to implementing the ammunition hitpoints that could come in useful.

 

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15 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

So if the Merkava carries full load it shouldn't be able to carry passengers?

Hmm...

I think the two coders already have plenty of stuff to work on though, so I'm not going to suggest to change something as irrelevant as the ability to carry passengers with full ammunition load. :)

 

Though it might be useful for us to get pictures of where the ammunition is located inside various of the LAVs, if they do get around to implementing the ammunition hitpoints that could come in useful.

 

 

Merkava in general can't carry passengers. This is a misunderstanding and myth copied and replied in various "sources". The rear cargo compartment in Merkava was designed only for ammunition storage + rear hatch is used only for loading ammo and crew evacuation.

 

However this design solution have a side effect that in case of emergency after ammunition containers are discarded, Merkava can take either crew of other vehicles that were disabled on the battlefield, a stretchers for wounded and can evacuate them, or in case of a true emergency, few infantrymen can be taken, however it is ill advised to do so, because it's neither comfortable or safe to drive in the cargo compartment, there are no seats there, and there is plenty of sharp things inside to which ammo containers are attached to. This is how it looks like inside, it's a nightmare to drive in this tank in cargo compartment.

 

hWDT64i.png

 

For troop transportation, there are dedicated APC's and IFV's in IDF service, like Namer, which have large troops compartment with safe and comfortable seats.

 

12.jpg

 

You can see here even how spare ammunition and equipment is stored inside Namer, in the side hull sponsons behind dismounts seats, and also on the hull belly under the false floor of the crew and dismounts compartment.

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27 minutes ago, wattywatts said:

We have plans for adjusting vehicle loadouts in similar way, however Encoding and Tech Design are flooded with work at the moment. Some of the planned changes would not be backwards compatible (6.5mm coax > 7.62mm coax, Slammer UP 105mm > 120mm), requiring more intern discussions and decisions before we take action.

 

Great to know, I have a question, if there is even a slim change, NATO will receive a proper, tracked IFV variant of the Panther. Even if not with a real Namer IFV turret recently presented, at least in for of a using copy paste of the existing RCWS turret in the game used by Gorgon and Kamysh, just like the Namer IFV prototype used?

 

321.jpg

 

I guess it would be rather easy just to take either Panther or Cheetah chassis, slap on it RCWS turret and use interior of the standard Panther and voila, we have an IFV.

 

Compared to the series production variant that looks like this.

 

11.JPG

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Maybe that'll be part of the new vehicles coming?

 

Also, while it's ill adviced to carry passengers in the Merkava, it can technically do so.

I guess that's where creative license comes in.

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Just now, scavenjer said:

Maybe that'll be part of the new vehicles coming?

 

Also, while it's ill adviced to carry passengers in the Merkava, it can technically do so.

I guess that's where creative license comes in.

 

Yes I can agree with that, altough I heard from reliable source, that when Namer was introduced in service, and soon also new 8x8 Eitan will be introduced in to service, IDF changed it's doctrine, and tanks will now never carry infantry anymore, even in emergency, simply a dedicated heavy APC/IFV Namer and 8x8 APC/IFV Eitan are used for this role solely.

 

APC's like Achzarit, M113, various Centurion based heavy APC's etc. are withdrawn from service in favor of Namer and Eitan. Some Merkava Mk2's are only rebuilded in to Ofek heavy APC as interim solution till enough new build Namers will be avaiable.

 

 

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Yeah, it's smart to ditch the M113...

According to my dad who went to Kosovo as part of the UN Force, they'd rather sit in a jeep than the M113 even when they got fired upon....

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11 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

 

Great to know, I have a question, if there is even a slim change, NATO will receive a proper, tracked IFV variant of the Panther. Even if not with a real Namer IFV turret recently presented, at least in for of a using copy paste of the existing RCWS turret in the game used by Gorgon and Kamysh, just like the Namer IFV prototype used?

 

 

 

We considered this variant, but in the end it won't be included in the release.

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4 minutes ago, wattywatts said:

 

 

We considered this variant, but in the end it won't be included in the release.

 

Ah damn, it's a pitty. NATO faction really need a proper IFV. :(

 

Quote

Yeah, it's smart to ditch the M113...

According to my dad who went to Kosovo as part of the UN Force, they'd rather sit in a jeep than the M113 even when they got fired upon....

 

US is also replacing M113 with heavier and better protected AMPV based on the M2A4 Bradley chassis. In general M113 was a good and simple APC, but it was just an aluminium box on tracks, nothing fancy, and today completely obsolete.

 

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