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Arma 3: Community wishes & ideas- DISCUSSION

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Mmm... again I have to disagree. Mouse movement (with the right deadzone for you or even no deadzone at all) allows you to get through doorways easier and negotiate angles. You can be far more accurate with your path of movement, the only inhibitors for me tend to be from the non-controls side like getting stuck because of clipping or getting literally "bumped" (like when you're hit by a car in ARMA at very slow speed) to the point where you aim and therefore path of movement is knocked off axis. Now, I agree that the axis to get on target can be slow. It's not perfect and you tend to over or under-aim; quite like over or under steering in driving games except the end result is you dead. Discussions have been on this subject matter and all relate to the engine inhibitors to virtually stop you doing 360 no scopes like a pr0 c0d pl4y3rr. I'm sure Coulumn found this and I'm pretty sure Chortles has mentioned it too. With the mouse you can feel that movement, it's at the tip of your fingers and you process it with windage, breathing and whatever else is going on in-game so there is normally going to be a slow rate of movement when you get to your final shot angle. Maybe it's just because right mouse button also holds your breath? Who knows. Probably also because you're using a mouse and mouse-pad, the pad is limited in size and an analog has infinite amount to move and navigate. You do not worry about space and you can quickly adjust for a miss or over-aim.

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Mmm... again I have to disagree. Mouse movement (with the right deadzone for you or even no deadzone at all) allows you to get through doorways easier and negotiate angles. You can be far more accurate with your path of movement, the only inhibitors for me tend to be from the non-controls side like getting stuck because of clipping or getting literally "bumped" (like when you're hit by a car in ARMA at very slow speed) to the point where you aim and therefore path of movement is knocked off axis. Now, I agree that the axis to get on target can be slow. It's not perfect and you tend to over or under-aim; quite like over or under steering in driving games except the end result is you dead. Discussions have been on this subject matter and all relate to the engine inhibitors to virtually stop you doing 360 no scopes like a pr0 c0d pl4y3rr. I'm sure Coulumn found this and I'm pretty sure Chortles has mentioned it too. With the mouse you can feel that movement, it's at the tip of your fingers and you process it with windage, breathing and whatever else is going on in-game so there is normally going to be a slow rate of movement when you get to your final shot angle. Maybe it's just because right mouse button also holds your breath? Who knows. Probably also because you're using a mouse and mouse-pad, the pad is limited in size and an analog has infinite amount to move and navigate. You do not worry about space and you can quickly adjust for a miss or over-aim.

Would you agree that a controller is less tiring and more natural and easy to use in general than a keyboard though? That's mainly why I'm interested in better controller support for ArmA 3. When I can just lean back and play the game without fumbling around for keys, pressing weird key combinations that don't feel natural (and on a keyboard, pressing buttons will never feel natural as opposed to a controller) and straining my right arm. The comfort issue with using a keyboard and mouse is alleviated greatly by getting a proper desk, but the cheaper and I believe better method is just using a controller.

Can we agree on the comfort factor at least? Try using a controller sometime, like a wired X360 or a PS3 controller (PS3 one requires DS3 or another free program in order to work). Just remember to set the sensitivity medium to low.

Actually I use K&M right now for ArmA 2 because I have to switch back forth between that and my controller if I try and use my controller, which is just too awkward.

What would be really cool is if a controller had trackballs in place of analog sticks, and with the flick of a switch next to both they could go back and forth between analog and non-constant input modes. I haven't actually used trackballs myself, but I've heard from people that have switched over to them from mice say that they're better.

Edited by JCDBionicman

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I'd agree it's less tiring, yes.

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Definitely less tiring. Sometimes you just wanna sit back and play without hassle. Totally understandable. Keyboard & mouse, office chair...ugghh. Sometimes it does suck LOL. Just to throw this out there as a viable comfort option; A good recliner, the right type of gaming pad & mouse, and you can be setup quite comfortably.

ps: Just thinking of comfort (this discussion) and tracker IR made me LOL.

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Definitely less tiring. Sometimes you just wanna sit back and play without hassle. Totally understandable. Keyboard & mouse, office chair...ugghh. Sometimes it does suck LOL. Just to throw this out there as a viable comfort option; A good recliner, the right type of gaming pad & mouse, and you can be setup quite comfortably.

ps: Just thinking of comfort (this discussion) and tracker IR made me LOL.

I mentioned the Nostromo a few pages back, its what I use.

I’m disabled, not physically as such, but via a trauma op that went wrong, anyway besides the point, just lets say I have to sit or lie on electric recliner or electric bed to get the right posture to lower the Intractable pain I have been left with.

Now, I have my mouse on a table next to which ever I’m sat/lay on, I have the Nostromo either on the left arm of the chair, or on the bed beside me, again where ever I am.

My monitor is directly in-front on a trolley table, the legs of the trolley can go under either the chair or the bed.

Underneath the trolley top table, is a pull out kb tray (I added that), on the side of the trolley is a separate small added table surface that is height adjustable, that’s where my tower stands, lowered to be at hand for switching on etc.

It is by far the most comfortable I have ever been gaming (pc or console), as said in my post a page or two back, Nostromo under my left hand and mouse in my right hand and very little need for a kb, although some need, so that’s why its there.

Prior to doing this with my gaming pc i.e. prior to my operation, when I was fit and healthy I sat at a desk, on a comfy recliner albeit a office type one whenever I had time to play. I wonder now, why I didn’t think of this setup before, during all those years playing PC games. This is comfortable, its mobile and its by far the easiest way to play.

Table trolley cost £25, small table for my mouse (fold up type) cost £15 and the keyboard pullout tray cost £20. Total £60 for, what I think, is gaming luxury, really, everyone should have a setup similar to this :).

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Not that I have a problem with criticism, but it's far too often that people argue quibbles and nonsense on peoples ideas put on any wishlist on any forum on the internet. There's always someone with nothing better to do than try to find things wrong with people's ideas where there are honestly none. It's very, very annoying. If you are going to critique, please put as much care into critiquing as the other person put into structuring their ideas please.

There was little structure if you ask me.

You agree that ArmA's keys could be condensed, but you claim that 102 keys are better than a few, smart and easy to remember macros. Huh.

Yes, some keys could be condensed. For instance not needing 3 keys for 3 stances, but only 2. For instance moving the action from the scroll list, being able to choose grenade without cycling through a list of firemods, and so on.

Condensed movement keys doesn't mean everything needs to fit on the same number of keys as the controller actually.

Here's what's wrong with the F# keys:

It requires me to take my eyes from the screen to the keyboard, and one or both of my hands to carefully press and browse through a large volume of keys. What's more intuitive is what I suggested, select your soldiers by aiming at them and adding/excluding them. Just like real life too; "you you and you go over there, and the rest of you flank left!"

What if those soldiers are outside the view range? Even if close enough, but with a obstacle between you and them. The fact that you need to take your eyes of the screen has to do with exercise i suppose.

I'm not sure what your arguing in terms of the free look key and the lean/stance key. They need to be on separate keys because they work better that way. So, what you want is already possible. I lean and go into a low crouch with the caps lock, and I quickly look behind both my shoulders with alt, and once that's done I lock freelook in whatever camera angle I want to use for aiming.

Don't you actually find that more compicated. I am not arguing about lean and freelook being separate, i am arguing that i shouldn't be locked in a "lean mode" and in order to move my head needing to use yet another mouse and keys combo in order to look around just my head...

Why would the gear button double as a scroll macro for utilities? I don't know, it might better to put it there as opposed to assigning to a random other key that the player has to remember instead.

Most games out there use 1-0 keys for weapons and other grenades and utilities available. Why a change?

And no, controllers will always be superior to mouse and keyboard, and this is coming from someone that dumped his console in favor of computer so I'm not here to start an argument about consoles. Again, using a few smart keys in place of, ONE HUNDRED AND TWO is quite obviously better. The mouse has the analog stick beat for aiming precision, but the left analog definitally has the awkward wasd keys beat, and even though the mouse is better it is tiring to use over an extended period of time and so that added precision doesn't mean quite much when your fighting wrist strain. I find an analog stick is just as good as a mouse with the exception of turn speed. You won't be able to aim very well with higher sensitivities that would allow you to turn like a ninja with a mouse, but your ability to aim will be consistent over a long period of time due to it's ease of use. I've been using my ps3 controller with the ds3 tool for playing games that aren't awkward to play with it.

I guess this is a matter of subjective opinion. I have been using mouse and keyboard since 1992, i am still using a computer for modelling and CAD work at the office, as well as games and other work at home. I am accustomed to it, and i really have no strain, even after prolonged use.

Whether ArmA 3 is Far Cry 3 is irrelevant. What's relevant is if his idea is feasible and useful, and it is both. Oh wait, how dare I ask Bohemia to actually create multiplayer modes! Preposterous! How about we get the modding community to make the game for them while we're at it. ArmA 2 leans on mods far too much, let's hope ArmA 3 doesn't lean on them as much as Skyrim and the rest of Bethesda's trash.

No, you are asking BI to make a MP mode for you, and a handfull other lads who would prefer to play it. It is similar to asking BI to make the life missions, although that would actually make more sense since there are a lot more players at times playing it than CTI or other "official" game mode.

A simulator should paraphrase reality, not directly mimic it. After all, we want to enjoy the videogames we're playing right? I think allowing the player to field-swap optics on the fly is just fine. For the "harzcorz" give them a difficulty where this isn't possible.

I guess this is another matter of opinion. Of course you and me can disagree as long as we respect each other's opinions. even though completely different.

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The problem with ArmA 2's CTI is that it's too big, it's too dependant on the AI to fill the void of space and these AI are stupid and the command interface used to control them weak. Team Deathmatch, Sector Control, and CTF are too small in size,max allowed players is too small and also that they lack vehicles.

What we need for ArmA 3 is to make groups of map presets based on the following sizes in square Kilometers; 5 Km, 2 Km, 1Km, and then half or less than half a kilometer for CQC. These maps should be the "best cuts" from Stratis and Lemnos. There should be at least 4 carefully chosen 5 Km chunks cut out of both islands, 8 2 Km chunks, 8 Km chunks, and lastly 8 chunks less than half a kilometer in area. Again, these need to be carefully chosen, like quality cuts of meat. After the first 4 big chunks are chosen, choosing the smaller ones aren't so hard. If necessary, these maps can be parts of eachother, but it would be preferable if each chunk taken out was completely different as much as possible from whatever chunks are already chosen.

After that it comes to designing game modes for these maps. I'm only listing the most important game modes:

Sabotage: One team defends objectives from an attacking team.

Team Deathmatch

Sector Control: Unlike SC in ArmA 2, will feature vehicles by default

Warfare: Like CTI, is more of an RTS style game. For players more interested in strategy and semi-real simulation of military logistics.

AI will be disabled by default to help make human-only games become a standard. AI will be able to be disabled and enabled specifically for certain things like support (artillery and UAVs and defense), and transport for people who don't want them completely disabled. Max player count will also be able to be configured to it's highest possible setting regardless of the mode being played.

I'd like to offer discussion on this idea I posted.

Edited by JCDBionicman

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The small "CQB map" is a great idea and has been requested before. Small maps that come with DLCs tend to have filled those roles in ARMA 2. The Takistan cut-out is a good example of that.

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Yes, some keys could be condensed. For instance not needing 3 keys for 3 stances, but only 2. For instance moving the action from the scroll list, being able to choose grenade without cycling through a list of firemods, and so on.

Condensed movement keys doesn't mean everything needs to fit on the same number of keys as the controller actually.

What if those soldiers are outside the view range? Even if close enough, but with a obstacle between you and them. The fact that you need to take your eyes of the screen has to do with exercise i suppose.

Don't you actually find that more compicated. I am not arguing about lean and freelook being separate, i am arguing that i shouldn't be locked in a "lean mode" and in order to move my head needing to use yet another mouse and keys combo in order to look around just my head...

Most games out there use 1-0 keys for weapons and other grenades and utilities available. Why a change?

No, you are asking BI to make a MP mode for you, and a handfull other lads who would prefer to play it. It is similar to asking BI to make the life missions, although that would actually make more sense since there are a lot more players at times playing it than CTI or other "official" game mode.

I guess this is another matter of opinion. Of course you and me can disagree as long as we respect each other's opinions. even though completely different.

The very definition of "condensed" means "elimination of volume without loss of mass." So yes, creating a condensed control preset means exactly that. What I think you're trying to say is that condensed controls aren't necessarily better, and that's technically correct. In the case of my idea however I think I've found a great way to make controlling your highly realistic soldier as easy as possible. I wouldn't complain if someone suggested a better and different idea from mine however.

You should be able to use the map to select your units. You should also be allowed to use a drag/drop box. Even without the map, you should be able to select your units no matter how far away on screen. And when we're talking about controls, we should be talking about how to make them easy for the player to use. The less you have to "exercise" in order to use controls, the better they are.

There's nothing complicated about pressing one button in place of two actually. I believe pressing q and e to be just as intuitive, but what I'm suggesting is better because it allows those keys to be used more effectively, while at the same giving you a key that is just as intuitive to use while at the same time giving you analog leaning where previously you would lean all the way left or right. Now your able to lean as much or as little as you want which is much more useful for obvious reasons.

Using the mouse wheel to change weapons is much easier and more natural for the same reason selecting soldiers by aiming at them is. I should remind you that you can still use these hotkeys in place of or in combination with my suggested condensed controls, this is after all a PC exclusive game we're talking about.

A handful of people? Really? All I know is that only a handful of people even play ArmA or any of Bohemia's games for that matter in comparison to COD or Battlefield. While perhaps those games are a bit overrated, they are much more polished, even for their full price, than Bohemia's games. To clarify, those games may be less ambitious and less unique but they are at least polished. Bohemia is responsible for the creation of ArmA 3, more specifically in this case, it's modders. The modding community should only exist to create things that bring fresh new ideas the developers never would have thought of usually to be implemented in future games. The modding community should never be responsible for patching a game, fixing major design oversights in gameplay, or otherwise fixing something that should not be broken. Bohemia is not a charity after all, it is asking for our money in exchange for their game, and I assume ArmA 3 will be full price. You are completely wrong to assign the responsibility of multiplayer creation to modders solely.

Edited by JCDBionicman

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And no, controllers will always be superior to mouse and keyboard

http://www.gamesradar.com/pc-gamers-destroyed-console-gamers-in-tests-says-voodoo-pc-founder/

The Xbox gamers used their 360 controllers and the PC gamers used the traditional mouse/keyboard combo. The results?

"The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative."

Sood credited the outcome to the combination of the superior mouse/keyboard setup, and his belief that "You simply don't get the same level of detail or control as you do with a PC over a console."

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But from the same article:

...there is, to put it bluntly, a higher noob to pro ratio [when comparing console people to PC people]. Compare this enviroment to the nightmarishly competitive PC scene, and its clear why, in this case at least, they came out on top. So on the whole, are PC gamers more talented than console gamers? Given the large number of casual gamers who own consoles and not PCs, probably; but the reality still boils down to an individual's skill, regardless of their system choice. A mouse and keyboard are defintely better, but unless Microsoft decides to let 360 and PC gamers duke it out in the real world, there can never be a definitive answer.

Also, unless the controllers had a configuration that gave it a fair fight against the hotkey toting PC gamers, it wasn't a fair fight.

But nevermind that. As I was saying to PuFu, and you must not have seen it, I sort of surrendered the idea that an analog stick is as good or better than a mouse and rather held my belief simply that a controller is better than a keyboard, and that while a mouse is more precise it is much more tiring to use in comparison to an analog stick. So my argument now is simply that a controller allows for a more consistent output of skill over a larger period of time, and that condensed smart controls in combination with a controller are better than the keyboard.

Edited by JCDBionicman

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But from the same article quote on nothingness. That's artificial, superficial blurg. Media. All queries, no resolve.

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The small "CQB map" is a great idea and has been requested before. Small maps that come with DLCs tend to have filled those roles in ARMA 2. The Takistan cut-out is a good example of that.

Yes! Something for maybe two squads on each side to maneuver comfortably, but nothing more than that, a good 24vs24 map in section of a city mixed with some open ground. That'd be perfect.

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But from the same article:

Also from the same article:

During the testing, extremely talented console gamers were pitted against "mediocre" PC gamers in what appears to be some type of shooter.
Also, unless the controllers had a configuration that gave it a fair fight against the hotkey toting PC gamers, it wasn't a fair fight.

Yeah, all those keys with all those different functions on the keyboard plus the mouse totally blows a gamepad out of the water for fps's. I think that a controller is better than a keyboard in a fighting game, or in a racing game, but not in an fps- especially not one with the complex controls of a simulator game. Not everything can be a context control, and some things you just don't want to have automated.

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I would say that the biggest problem with a controller is that 1 to 1 movement is not possible. There is a limit to how fast you can turn (by reaching the edge of your stick), but mouse users have no limit, so naturally they can aim faster than controller users.

That being said, I think a controller/analog would be much better for movement. This is obviously so that you can move slowly by tilting the analog slightly versus running fast or not running at all by pressing a key down, as well as the fact that you can move in more angles at once.

IMO for shooters and RTS's, mouse/keyboard > controller. For third person movement adventures (ie. Assassin's creed) and vehicular games (racing and sims), a controller is better.

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I posted this in the non-discussion thread but I wonder what people think of this idea:

An Arma 3 expansion pack, yes I know the game isn't even out but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead.

It would be a naval/amphib ops expansion pack since physx should open up the possibility to walk on moving ships and what not.

It would contain:

-A Huge map consisting largely of water, but with an archepeligo on there. Hopefully something roughly 60x60km or 120 x 120km but with sufficient cell size so that the AI are not adversly affected when they are fighting on dry land.

-A campaign that would revolve around an amphib op to retake those

-Some smaller scenario's revolving around smaller naval ops

-Inclusion of ships for BOTH sides, with both sides having some sort of proper amphib capacity. Ships could go from sub's to corvettes, PT boats, Cruisers, Amphib carriers and maybe even a full sized carrier(maybe Iran get's a carrier from the Chinese thats like a Russian one?) with aircraft to equip them (F35, Merlin, etc etc)

-Proper marine corps equipment to support this including amphib vehicles and landing craft of various sizes

-MAYBE if time or resources permits, add a Russian battlegroup and marine corp equipment as sort of an independant side.

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Not stand-alone expansions this time to not create chaos and havoc with infinite versions and combinations, please.

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Not stand-alone expansions this time to not create chaos and havoc with infinite versions and combinations, please.

Yeah I agree with you on this that it shouldn't be a standalone release

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...all those different functions...

This is a keyboard's weakness over a controller. Making controlling your player a scavenging hunt for a right button press, or an awkward twister session with your fingers is not ideal next to a smartly made control scheme that fits on a set of comfortable to press and easy to remember buttons. True, in ArmA 2's case the keyboard is better, but only because the developers didn't even try at making good control presets.

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@JCDBionicman - most pc players do know where the "buttons" are on their keyboard + mouse and they do use the controller option/menu to setup the keys how they like and feel comfortable with. The only reasons why someone would feel its "a scavenging hunt for a right button press" or "an awkward twister session with your fingers" is that one doesn't have full controller setup + options or/and that "bit of laziness" to tryout and adjust the default game setup. ;)

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The scavenger hunt is trying to find all the buttons to fit a controller while playing ARMA! I customize it. I have good presets. ~ and I instantly transition to pistol so if I ever jam, I'm set. My movement keys all work fine along with my communication keys (as I use ACRE). I don't see the problem, maybe I see the problem in the amount of keys and how that could expand with mods but there will be solutions to that.

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I would say that the biggest problem with a controller is that 1 to 1 movement is not possible. There is a limit to how fast you can turn (by reaching the edge of your stick), but mouse users have no limit, so naturally they can aim faster than controller users.

That being said, I think a controller/analog would be much better for movement. This is obviously so that you can move slowly by tilting the analog slightly versus running fast or not running at all by pressing a key down, as well as the fact that you can move in more angles at once.

IMO for shooters and RTS's, mouse/keyboard > controller. For third person movement adventures (ie. Assassin's creed) and vehicular games (racing and sims), a controller is better.

And this here is why I linked to the XIM3. :lol: As well as why others brought up the Nostromo... though I'd say that the cheapest solution is indeed to plug in a controller (and use x360ce if Arma 3 doesn't detect non-360 controllers ;) ) since this is a game where third-person movement, shooter and vehicular can all be happening. :D

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@JCDBionicman - most pc players do know where the "buttons" are on their keyboard + mouse and they do use the controller option/menu to setup the keys how they like and feel comfortable with. The only reasons why someone would feel its "a scavenging hunt for a right button press" or "an awkward twister session with your fingers" is that one doesn't have full controller setup + options or/and that "bit of laziness" to tryout and adjust the default game setup. [annoying image]

Keyboards are factually un-intuitive towards gaming because they are also factually not designed for it (not talking about gaming keypads). Also, I never said anything against setting up keys the way you like, in fact I commended it. Perhaps you should look at my previous comments again.

Players are lazy because they don't want to take a considerable amount of time trying to figure out how to fix something that shouldn't have been broken? Perhaps it's the devs who were lazy to not include a better control scheme. And if you want to talk about "most people," most people aren't going to try to memorize a few dozen hotkeys just to be able to play a game. People have jobs, school, other more relaxing hobbies, other better things they could be doing with their time.

PC gaming provides for more options and freedom from console gaming. This is not an excuse to completely throw friendly user interfacing out the window. Similarly, that ArmA 2 is a military simulator does not provide an adequate excuse to not make more streamlined controls.

The scavenger hunt is trying to find all the buttons to fit a controller while playing ARMA! I customize it. I have good presets. ~ and I instantly transition to pistol so if I ever jam, I'm set. My movement keys all work fine along with my communication keys (as I use ACRE). I don't see the problem, maybe I see the problem in the amount of keys and how that could expand with mods but there will be solutions to that.

That's no fault of the controller. You can't even play ArmA 2 with a controller because of the poorly designed controls. One example is the prone, crouch and vault keys. Rather than regulate vaulting to the action wheel (as vaulting is a command rarely used anyways) and put stance changing on one button which could have been easily done (press for crouch toggle, hold for prone toggle) they just plop all these inputs onto keys that could have been utilized for more important things.

Edited by JCDBionicman

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@JCDBionicman - for you interest pc gaming is usually about making use of keyboard + mouse, except maybe simulations where one can enjoy them a bit more using a proper flight stick, pedals and/or a steering wheel. If you just want to play games focused around streamlined console controlls - just simple play games that are developed for consoles (or consolified). Imo if players don't like or can't be bothered with a little game specific controller familiarization (phase) they should stick to casual games. Isn't it great to have variety of games that aren't just trying to be profitable copy of another one? :)

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