Jets - Hitpoints

[Jnr4817 215]

I also agree with NightIntruder,

 

What about dealing with these certain hitpoints as the pilot in the aircraft. For example, emergency procedures that will extend the life of the damaged plane, to make it to a suitable landing area. For example, in the event of an engine fire in a dual engine aircraft, the pilot could hit the fire extinguisher button, pull the throttle down, cut off the fuel pump, and disconnect the battery. Thus, fighting the fire and still landing back at base on 1 engine. For Arma, this may be to much, but at least have a way to fight an engine fire, etc.

 

Thanks

[HillGamez 48]

im very much looking forward to the jets DLC.. come to daddy

[DOOMSlayer 4]

also need to fix planes and heli's from blowing the hell up when you land on the ground 2 hard. or your rotors hit something its sooooo damn stupid to blowup from such small damage

[ph0enx 12]

I would absolutely like to see new flightmodels for planes. It's absolutely unrealistic to just rotate the plane 45° and nothing else happens. Not flying a curve or anything.

 

Better physics would be awesome. Also better controls of throttle for Joysticks. ATM it is impossible to taxi at a certain speed wven with a HOTAS system! You are breaking down, move the slider just 1mm upwards and suddely you are throttling um to 80 - 90km/h...

[Talon2321 0]

Could someone please fix the issue with the throttle and make it more controllable and precise?

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

On 1/12/2017 at 2:56 AM, ph0enx said:

I would absolutely like to see new flightmodels for planes. It's absolutely unrealistic to just rotate the plane 45° and nothing else happens. Not flying a curve or anything.

 

Better physics would be awesome. Also better controls of throttle for Joysticks. ATM it is impossible to taxi at a certain speed wven with a HOTAS system! You are breaking down, move the slider just 1mm upwards and suddely you are throttling um to 80 - 90km/h...

 

I have no such issue with my X-52 HOTAS.

[froggyluv 2130]

On 1/11/2017 at 10:56 AM, ph0enx said:

I would absolutely like to see new flightmodels for planes. It's absolutely unrealistic to just rotate the plane 45° and nothing else happens. Not flying a curve or anything.

 

 

 

 Yeah would be fun if AI did even some basic old school shit like from Janes day -maybe thats advanced i honestly know jack about planes -but would be fun nonetheless

[Demetrious 0]

21 hours ago, Imperator[TFD] said:

 

I have no such issue with my X-52 HOTAS.

 

I have an X-52 Pro, and I very, very much have this issue with all of the "stock" attack jets programmed by Bohemia. I used to think that the game engine's flight model was atrocious, but then I tried some mod-pack planes, like RHS's A-10, and found that they flew much better. It's impossible to do a loop in a Wipeout, but the RHS A-10 can loop, roll, dive, climb and most importantly turn without an issue. It's clearly a problem specific to the aircraft models, not the engine's mechanics. 

 

Right now the stock aircraft have a severe problem with turning; even a gentle, wide turn costs them so much airspeed that it's very, very easy to stall out and plant the plane in the ground. For some reason the drag penalty for turning is insanely out-of-whack. It renders the stock jets almost useless in game. With the Jets DLC revisiting those models, I hope to see that addressed. 

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

12 hours ago, Demetrious said:

 

I have an X-52 Pro, and I very, very much have this issue with all of the "stock" attack jets programmed by Bohemia. I used to think that the game engine's flight model was atrocious, but then I tried some mod-pack planes, like RHS's A-10, and found that they flew much better. It's impossible to do a loop in a Wipeout, but the RHS A-10 can loop, roll, dive, climb and most importantly turn without an issue. It's clearly a problem specific to the aircraft models, not the engine's mechanics. 

 

Right now the stock aircraft have a severe problem with turning; even a gentle, wide turn costs them so much airspeed that it's very, very easy to stall out and plant the plane in the ground. For some reason the drag penalty for turning is insanely out-of-whack. It renders the stock jets almost useless in game. With the Jets DLC revisiting those models, I hope to see that addressed. 

 

Again, I do not have this issue when using the vanilla jets and my X-52 HOTAS set up.

 

Are you using ANY mods whatsoever?

[TerrorToast 3]

It would be great if you guys could make it possible to ditch aircrafts (and survive). Also real helicopters don't instantly explode when they fall over.

Edited January 15, 2017 by TerrorToast

[tlftetsuo 14]

Hi Devs,

 

I think it's fairly apparent from many of the comments that what is really in need of upgrading is the flight model generally. I'm excited by the things you've proposed re: radar and damage, but I think real changes to the way jets fly MUST include the flight model. So here are my beefs with the current ArmA 3 flight system:

 

1. Throttle control (when using mouse and keyboard) - firstly, you need to get most jets up to 20km/h before they roll without needing additional thrust. No idea why this is, but most flight sims use percentage increments (like your AFM for helos?);

2. Roll, yaw, and pitch - a number of comments have pointed out that planes don't move like they should. I don't mind that control surfaces reset after being manipulated (unlike e.g., FSX), but planes generally experience yaw-on-roll and angle-of-attack phenomena (which the ArmA 3 model doesn't simulate);

3. Flaring on landing - one of the hardest things to do in ArmA 3, primarily due to thrust and stall characteristics (as well as control surface manipulation). It really feels like your just landing a brick most of the times...

4. I pointed this out in a bug report some time ago, but putting flaps down on the Caesar BTT at 150 km/h turns it into a plane that can fly forever. Oh yes, this also brings up drag characteristics in general; you can turn the engines off most of the planes at 500m altitude and literally fly across Altis...

 

Anyhow, just my 2 (or 4) cents.

 

Tetsuo.

[senseichen 20]

Make sure to add an option to disable it in case it becomes game breaking.

[chortles 263]

On 1/16/2017 at 6:57 PM, tlftetsuo said:

Hi Devs,

 

I think it's fairly apparent from many of the comments that what is really in need of upgrading is the flight model generally. I'm excited by the things you've proposed re: radar and damage, but I think real changes to the way jets fly MUST include the flight model.

 

15 hours ago, senseichen said:

Make sure to add an option to disable it in case it becomes game breaking.

Not happening:

On 12/17/2016 at 11:13 AM, chortles said:

Official word on Discord: "There's no AFM for Jets planned or in development. We'll still try to do some tweaks, but it's not our primary goal for Jets. We tried to focus on the radar because it can be benefitial to other content too and can add some variety into scenarios."

In any case, this is the jets damage thread...

[xxgetbuck123 945]

On 22/01/2017 at 9:08 AM, senseichen said:

Make sure to add an option to disable it in case it becomes game breaking.

 

You referring to jet hitpoints? Aint happening mate, just like heli hitpoints that shit is there to stay. 

[dragon01 902]

Actually, they did say they'll look at the flight model. It won't be AFM, but tweaks like the above might very well be in scope. As long as you can do it within the current flight model, they should do it. RHS aircraft handle much better, for example, that can be a good starting point.

[teddymosart1 40]

What,and how much,of this will be incorporated into A3 for free? And what will be possible to mod and put inside mods without breaking rules?

 

Sometimes,stuff needs to be in the game anyway,to prevent people getting unfair advantage.

[jarrad96 1940]

Like they've said before, all platform upgrades (in this case the jet hitpoints and radar) are free for all- the paid things are the new jet aircraft (not announced yet)

[pettka 694]

3 hours ago, teddymosart1 said:

What,and how much,of this will be incorporated into A3 for free? And what will be possible to mod and put inside mods without breaking rules?

 

Sometimes,stuff needs to be in the game anyway,to prevent people getting unfair advantage.

I would recommend reading our OPREP - Content Licensing for further details - it describes the approach we have quite in depth.

[GepardenK2 3]

I love the new plane damage model and feel hitpoints for each individual component is pretty good. However the hull is still way too weak and planes explode in the air or during crash-landings way too easily. I just think gameplay is more interesting if the pilot gets to go down with the plane or eject instead of insta-die in the air. I'm not saying planes should be harder to shoot down, just that the plane itself should not explode even if it's going down from major component damage - that way we'll get more interesting emergent gameplay from ejects or crazy crash-landing attempts. 

[xxgetbuck123 945]

11 hours ago, GepardenK2 said:

I love the new plane damage model and feel hitpoints for each individual component is pretty good. However the hull is still way too weak and planes explode in the air or during crash-landings way too easily. I just think gameplay is more interesting if the pilot gets to go down with the plane or eject instead of insta-die in the air. I'm not saying planes should be harder to shoot down, just that the plane itself should not explode even if it's going down from major component damage - that way we'll get more interesting emergent gameplay from ejects or crazy crash-landing attempts. 

 

That's cause proper suspension hasn't been incorporated into jets. So its pretty much land has softly as you can cause the suspension wont be taking any brunt of the landing. 

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

35 minutes ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

 

That's cause proper suspension hasn't been incorporated into jets. So its pretty much land has softly as you can cause the suspension wont be taking any brunt of the landing. 

 

It's coming soon yay!

 

Quote

Tweaked: Suspension of the Caesar BTT plane is now supported by PhysX 

 

[xxgetbuck123 945]

2 hours ago, Imperator[TFD] said:

 

It's coming soon yay!

 

 

 

Holy shit I didn't know this! Another chub is brewing haha 

[sberla101 50]

can someone make a video with suspension working?

 

thx

[Strike_NOR 898]

Hello! I would like to chip in with a few suggestions!

I actually work with aircraft systems, from Power Plant to fuel systems, landing gear, flight controls, air conditioning and more. I hope I can be of good use and a resource to the new damage mechanics. What I would like to share is a few simple but immersive hitpoint changes/additions to ARMA jets. All of my ideas will be heavily oriented around real-life aircraft system design, with regards to the arma 3 engine limits and timeframe before DLC release!

 

First of all, thank you Bohemia for looking into jets. When I first heard "jets DLC" I was just imagining new vehicles. I never imagined you would look into sensors, hitpoints and everything else, so big thanks! The stuff you are implementing now is going to seriously up the game immersion, quality and balance.

 

Current (RC) Damage types:

 

• Hull
• Eng
• Fuel
• FCS
• INST
• GEAR

 

I suggest changing them a little. You may or may not agree with this, but aircraft systems-wise it makes sense:

 

Suggested new Damage types:

 

• FUS (Fuselage)
• ENG (Engine(s))
• FUEL (Fuel systems)
• FLCS (Flight Control Systems - also prevents mixing with Fire Control System (FCS))
• ELEC (Electrical systems)
• HYD (Hydraulic systems)

 

The new damage types may cover a broader range of failures, that addon makers may have control over. Many of them are still unchanged, but some make more sense. I will explain what I envision to be typical experiences for the player when various systems take damage.

 

Now let's imagine each system has 3 damage states (white, yellow, red), and if FUS reaches 100% dmg it causes vehicle destruction, the following are examples and thoughts around the various effects ingame:

 

Since white damage state is normal system operation, I have not listed that state for each damage type.

 

FUSELAGE:

The fuselage is the vehicles airframe/structure. It is what keeps the aircraft together so it only makes sense that if this part is fully damaged, the aircraft will be destroyed. I only suggest changing name from HULL because one rarely refers to the aircraft body as HULL in real life, it's called fuselage. If you want to keep HULL for consistency purposes with other vehicles I get that. 

Projectiles, explosives and fire will also damage the hull. Crash into terrain/objects will damage the hull. In real life, flying into objects/terrain usually results in total loss of aircraft. Controlled landings on flat surfaces with gear up (or down), however, may actually be survivable. I already believe ARMA 3 does a few basic things right here. Correct me if I am wrong, but It appears to me that both vehicle and passengers take damage proportional to the acceleration (G-forces). So if you smash hard into something, vehicle may actually survive, but crew die. I would like to see survivable gear-up landings in flat terrain, where the player can "softly" skid the aircraft along the ground. Would be extra immersive with the "dirt trail" objects spawning behind. A gear up landing would prevent gear operation (so the plane can't bounce up again and taxi around).

 

Damage states:

• Yellow: <50% HP
• Red: <25% HP

 

ENGINE:

The engine(s) are the vehicles only means of propulsion. Single engine craft have a weakness over twin engine craft. They are way more vulnerable to battle damage, because you only have one engine to rely on. I think Arma 3 should reflect this by having the engine damage parameter act according to the number of engines on the aircraft. For instance by adjusting how much thrust is lost with engine damage. A single engine plane may lose 50% thrust from some light damage, while a twin engine plane may only lose 25% of thrust.

 

Damage states:

• Yellow: Reduced engine thrust, increased engine smoke effects.
• Red: Further reduced engine thrust + Random low chance of: Fire and/or random high chance of Shutdown. (Randomness optional if predictability is favorable).

 

FUEL SYSTEM:

The aircraft fuel system is responsible for safe storage and delivery of fuel to aircraft engines. It is one of the major concerns of every aircraft designer, as well as pilots. The well known quote that describes aviation fuel well is "The only time you have too much fuel, is when you're on fire". Hence I think aircraft fire probability should be linked to fuel tank contents and damage.

 

Damage states:

• Yellow: Fuel tank leakage at low rate (should empty a full aircraft in <10 minutes)
• Red: Random low chance of aircraft fire, random low chance of unusable fuel (cut fuel quantity in half to simulate ruptured tank/destroyed plumbing or defective pumps), random medium chance of increased leak rate.

 

FLCS:

The Flight Control System is responsible for maneuvering the aircraft in all axes, but also deploying speedbrakes and high lift devices such as flaps/slats. On some aircraft this is accomplished by use of mechanical links (conventional system) or by use of Fly-By-Wire technology, where computers assist pilots in controlling the aircraft by use of electrical connections and hydraulics. In ARMA 3, damage to flight controls should render certain functions inoperable or stuck.

 

Damage states:

• Yellow: Random high chance of control surface/flap/speedbrake inoperability. Primary flight controls are usually fail-safe to a center position to avoid constant control input if control of a surface is "lost". Reduced aircraft control.
• Red: Random high chance of further control surface inoperability, random low chance of total control loss (current input when damage occurs will be "frozen"/uncontrollable roll/all center").

 

ELEC:

The Electrical system is responsible for delivering power to all aircraft systems for control and operation. Usually, these systems are divided into essential/non-essential/emergency "buses" and utilize "shedding", which means that if power delivery is unstable/reduced only the most vital electrical systems will continue to operate. For combat aircraft this usually means degraded instrument, mission computer and weapon systems performance. 

 

Damage states:

• Yellow: Random high chance that certain things fail such as: HUD, Radar, Radar Warning System, Weapon systems, Sensors, Lights
• Red: Total guaranteed failure of all HUD, Radar, Radar Warning System, Weapon systems, Sensors, Lights etc.

 

HYD:

The Hydraulic system, if installed, is usually responsible for operating landing gear in most aircraft. In modern combat and larger aircraft, it is usually also responsible for operating flight controls as well. For this reason, hydraulic systems are often redundant, which means an aircraft has at least two systems. It doesn't need to be simulated like that in ArmA due to complexity, but the damage effects may try to simulate that:

 

Damage states:

• Yellow: Random medium chance that landing gear can not retract, random low chance that flight controls become sluggish (if FLCS has HYD dependency), random medium chance flaps do not work.
• Red: Landing gear does not operate, random high chance that flight controls become inoperative (if FLCS has HYD dependency).

 

Damage effects:

 

• Fuel/Fuselage fire: If fuel system causes fire, the fuselage will take much steady damage for as long as there are fuel contents in aircraft. A fireball should spawn somewhere around the fuel hitbox(es). Fuel fires will increase the rate of fuel consumption drastically. A fuel fire should drain Fuselage HP pool at a rate of about 5% HP per second. Fuel fires only extinguish if fuel quantity is depleted, and therefore are usually fatal.

 

• Engine fire: If engine causes fire, the fuselage will take less steady damage (perhaps 1-2% HP per second), but it will continue to deal damage to the engine also. Unless DEVs add a fire-extinguisher action, engine fires can be put out by shutting down, and restarting the engines in mid air. This will "reset" the fire and allow the pilot to fly to safety. Engine fires will also extinguish if aircraft fuel quantity is depleted.

 

• Fuel leak: If a fuel leak is caused, a visible gray vapor trail will spawn from the hitbox. It will be a visual cue to pilot and enemies that the fuel tanks are damaged and extra care needs to be taken. A possible addition to this feature is that for each point of damage the aircraft receives during a fuel leak, there is a risk of fuel fire. (Don't fly into small arms fire when leaking fuel). Once the fuel quantity is depleted - the leak effect stops. If airspeed is very low, the effect changes to something that looks like a normal leak (not vapor/spray).

 

• Terrain collision: If landing wheels up in a field, I would love to see the "dirt track" 3D models and some dust being kicked up. If the plane is destroyed on impact, it would be nice to see a fireball spew in the direction and velocity of the aircraft, since generally speaking the fuel contents of the aircraft would be sprayed like a "napalm bomb" :).

 

Well, this turned into a wall of text.

 

Sorry about that. As you can see, I have not mentioned parts breaking off, because ARMA was probably never intended for that :) . It would require a ton of modification to all addons and all current aircraft, both 3D modeling, LOD's and game code. I would not demand that from you.

 

Also, I have played with random chances. That may or may not turn out to be the best idea. Since we can't ask for a flight simulator damage model, I thought adding random chances of failures, and throwing them into aircraft system categories, will help the players know that something is wrong. It would add some extra fun into the mix because, if it is always a fixed damage at a fixed damage threshold, you will always know what to expect. I.e if you have "yellow" damage state to fuel, it always starts leaking, then you would know to RTB. But if it is random, you would have to check, monitor fuel gauges and visually look for leaks in order to assess the danger.

 

 

Also. Please feel free to ask about general aircraft systems and system redundancy (failure resistance). I have a lot of knowledge about it!

 

 

 

Also.... Can we pleeeeeeeease have proper ejection seats with jets DLC :) Pretty please? Something like RHS made it :D Their Mi-28 Ejection sequence is awesome btw!!

[x3kj 1247]

Couple of questions:

Why is the left rudder hitpoint called "HitLCRudder" amd "HitLCElevator", but right one is called "HitRRudder" and "HitRElevator" ? Has this special meaning?

Will sensors get a hitpoint in future? Seperate or tied to other stuff, because right now if avionics are damaged fully (all screens black, hud gone) - you can still use radar and lock on just fine with everything.

Why implement all these hitpoints on the vanilla planes, if AA cannon hits damage all the hitpoints pretty much equally? Could use some more fine tuning on the armor/damage values. A direct hit of a 35mm should propably completely destroy the component it hit (apart from hull).

There are 2 undefined hitclasses on the wipeout (Hit point name " ") - havent tested others yet. I assume those are the pilot turret (traverse) and "gun" (elevation)?

 

It would be nice if there was a burning state (potentially triggered by fuel or engine damage). Right now it seems that most of the time the planes just smoke (from engine damage) and crash due to collection of component damage (or ejected pilots). No burning or explosion midair.

 

Edit:

I played around with buzzard as well. It is way too sturdy against 20 and 35mm cannon imo. It took maybe aprox 20 hits from 20mm to get the pilot to eject