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If we wanted realistic laserguidance in ARMA, It would probably confuse non-flightsim enthusiasts and make the game "unplayable" (i.e "I refuse to learn this mechanic") for the general player base.

 

I know for my self that it would be amazing to be able to set the laser encryption on the bomb to match the FAC laser designator, or your own laser designator. Very realistic, but how necessary is it for ArmA and how much does it add to the overall experience?

 

Right now I believe GBU's act just like the Titan-AA when it comes to locking. They Auto-Lock when the seeker can sense the target. For a GBU this is not very realistic, but it works and it gives good feedback to the player.

 

The only problem I can think of right now is where multiple lasers are being used in the same area. How can a player distinguish what laser to track and lock onto? That is where encryption has a value. An easy way to address this problem is to attach the playername or unit-ID of the unit that is designating and display it in the aircraft/vehicle sensor HUD. It would at least allow players to communicate which designation needs a GBU pronto ASAP.

 

I would also like to see a few handy TGP features:

 

  • Laser spot track

When in TGP view and piloting a jet/heli, allow the player to use a "Laser Spot Track" key bind to search the TGP sensor Field Of View of active laser designations, and slew the TGP to that spot. This will allow pilots to quickly find a laser designation and start asessing the target.

  • Slave to coordinates

This would allow the pilot to set a point on the map, and have the TGP ground stabilize at this location through a keybind. This way, only fine-adjustment is required upon entering the TGP view.

 

 

Just a few ideas :)

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I like the idea of having the laser bound to a key instead of scrolling through the weapons. No GBUs dont auto lock onto a laser spot, you have to target it and when in weapon constraints you get a lock. At least now lasertargets dont affect AI, in previous arma titles if you put a laserspot on a vehicle or in front the AI driving would see it as an  object and try to avoid it or completely stop.

6 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

Slave to coordinate

This would be a nice feature to have!

And is it me or has the buzzards radar range been increased to 8km now? Cause holy shit AA units are really fucked now lol. Oukej can you explain how the neophron (in fact all jets and helis) is targeting AA vehicles from 9Km+ with skapels and macers (and DAGR from around 7.0km)? If RWR can't target without proper missiles/components whats gives? I understand that with RWR the AI becomes aware of the active radar but its still outside my draw distance (8.5km) so it shouldn't be from my visual/thermal sensors and no radar. If i play the same thing with radar off i can have the planes circling 5km above the AA  and neither party would be aware of each other lol.  And vehicle rwr warns of a launch straight away no matter the launch distances. Shouldnt be sitting in a vehicle and have smoke go off because some plane 8 clicks away just shot at me. 

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22 hours ago, dragon01 said:

Of course you need to align the seeker, but it boils down to just pointing it the right way. Frequency syncing is not one of those things ArmA models. I think it just assumes all laser-guided ordnance uses the same frequency (or, at best, that each side has its own frequency). The videos also show what I'm talking about. Just point and shoot, no "lock on" as with IR-guided missiles.

That's not what I'm talking about. 9M127K Vikhr a SACLOS missile. It's not "laser guided" in ArmA sense, as it can't use a designator and doesn't illuminate the target. It just uses a laser to relay target data from the launch platform to the missile. Others use radio uplink (Ataka-V) or even a wire (TOW) to achieve the exact same results. From ArmA standpoint, it'd work like any other SACLOS missile.

 

You have to align it and drop it at the right moment, as you can see, if it's about a bomb. I would like if BIS made it the way we have in LockOn (without that depth though), but anyway, it's not "release and it will find". Life won't be much easier with more realistic laser guidance ;-)

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There are some tactical and gameplay enhancing benefits of using a more realistic laser system though.

 

Think about the following scenario:

 

A jet is tasked with destroying a tank by use of Laser Guided Bomb. With the current system player must follow these steps:

 

  1. Enter TGP view and find target
  2. Stabilize TGP on target and activate laser (through weapon menu)
  3. Select GBU and lock the laser target
  4. Fly over target to a point where target is about 45 degrees under aircraft nose
  5. Acquire lock
  6. Release bomb
  7. Bomb guides onto target.

Now this is a very clean way where it is easy to verify that you are making the correct steps along the way. However, with the new sensor upgrade, the enemy tank will be alerted to the laser already at step 2. As soon as the laser is painting the tank, the tank is alerted and may pop smoke and retreat into cover. This is actually realistic from the tanks point of view and would much likely be the result in a real life situation. The result is, very high chance of failing to hit the tank.

 

Let's make a few tweaks to the system and use different laser mechanics. In the next scenario, lasers work differently. Lasers can be toggled by keybind, time to impact is displayed in aircraft HUD together with TGP aiming point. Bombs also lock on to your laser post-launch (LOAL - Lock On After Launch).

 

Let's refly the scenario:

 

  1. Enter TGP view and find target
  2. Stabilize TGP on target
  3. Select GBU
  4. Fly towards HUD indicator that shows where TGP is looking
  5. Release bomb by CCIP or, since CCRP isn't featured, by gut feeling in level flight.
  6. Wait until Time to Impact shows 5 seconds or so and activate laser
  7. Bomb guides onto target

This approach requires more pilot skill and experience in order to pull off correctly, but allows for more dynamic weapon delivery. The big difference here being that you are not required to lock on to the laser before launch. Therefore you do not have to lase the target too early. In this scenario, the enemy tank will not be alerted until step 6. And when he is alerted, he will have 5 seconds to react and move. This significantly increases the probability of a kill. This is also how one attacks modern battletanks with GBU in real life. 

It would be very nice if players got an indicator in the HUD that shows where the TGP is aimed, like a small diamond, circle or cross.  This way, you would be dropping your bomb towards that point. The accuracy may be quite high, but by activating the laser just before impact, the bomb only makes a final adjustment and hits dead center.

 

One of the major reasons this is done in real life, is because a GBU will actually oscillate when it's tracking. This causes a lot of drag and reduced bomb range drastically. When it is dropped as a dumb bomb, it actually follows a ballistic trajectory with very little drag. During the terminal flight phase, the laser is switched on and the bomb homes in. This has minimal effect on drag, doesn't alert the enemy too early and improves accuracy and range.

 

As you can see, it provides more dynamic weapon delivery. It forces you to think a little bit more about your decisions. If you are attacking a convoy truck, you can lase all you want and they won't know what's coming. But when attacking an IFV or tank with equipped laser detectors, you have to start being cunning. Otherwise you will find that the tanks disappear behind smoke and cover before you can get within dropping range.

 

This would, however, require ArmA to feature some way to make laser designations unique. Otherwise, an area full of lasers may cause the bomb to follow the wrong one.

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@Strike_NOR what you have described is the DCS A10 Warthog video that @woore linked above.  The laser coming on 15 secs before impact is just perfect.

 

Let's hope that BIS can implement something like this (or allow the community to make it !)

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15 minutes ago, kremator said:

@Strike_NOR what you have described is the DCS A10 Warthog video that @woore linked above.  The laser coming on 15 secs before impact is just perfect.

 

Let's hope that BIS can implement something like this (or allow the community to make it !)

 

Yes more or less, I just expanded a little on it theoretically and applied to ArmA. 

 

I know it CAN be done in ARMA, because ACE mod 2.0 did it for ArmA 2.  You could bring up an MFD and set the laser code. The FAC operator would also set lasercode in his Laser Designator, and as such, the bomb/missiles would only follow the correct laser. They even made it so you could launch Hellfires beyond visual range, and then they would fly "blindly" to the target area and lock on once the laser came into the missiles field of view. After in-flight lock was established, the missile then dove straight into the laser spot.

 

So it can be achieved in the arma universe, and the sensor upgrade will probably make it easier for addon makers to script/mod, but I would really like to see this native to the ArmA 3 engine!

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That's what I was talking about. IMO, laser frequency would be a bit of an overkill, just make it so that the bombs will only seek the designator of the same side as the launcher. I don't think that "multiple lasers in the same small area" is a common situation. It doesn't need to be a DCS-level simulation, or even particularly flightsim-like. Just allow LOAL for both bombs and missiles, and put some sort of TGP position indicator on the HUD. You could level-bomb from the TGP view, just wait for the CCIP indicator to line up with the crosshairs. TTI indicator would be nice, too. Using it wouldn't require assigning the laser to a separate key, a bomb usually takes longer than 5s to drop, which should be enough to switch to a laser.

2 hours ago, woore said:

 

You have to align it and drop it at the right moment, as you can see, if it's about a bomb. I would like if BIS made it the way we have in LockOn (without that depth though), but anyway, it's not "release and it will find". Life won't be much easier with more realistic laser guidance ;-)

I was mostly talking about missiles. Bombs, naturally, still have to be released above the target, so that they can physically reach it. However, I think this can be done with CCIP and an indicator that shows where the TGP is pointed. Implementing some sort of rudimentary CCRP would be nice, but not necessary, since you can use the TGP for CCIP in level flight. 

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I totally appreciate what you have described over the last couple of posts. I am in the process of learning the dcs A-10c and the laser designation with unique laser codes provides some pretty fun gameplay. Since launch, BIS kept the A-164 as a CAS plane to a good deal dependet on a second element as JTAC, but it was always annyoing that you could not self designate. Why? As often stated, it was meant to encourgae 'combined, cooperative' gameplay. Now, i really think its about time to give the CAS planes a way to laser self designate as in real life. But the laser code system with LOAL would really provide for some fun mp gameplay.

 

For instance, in RL the A-10 has no radar installed. I am not on dev branch so i don't know whether a mp server could disable radar for specific aircraft or not. But imagine, if the A-164 on a server has no active radar capability and is totally dependet to find target with a tgp visually, having GPS cooridnates provided or dropping stuff on a laser with a specific code. With no active radar the A-164 would not see any white boxes designating targets on the ground, but would either have to find them visually (with tgp) or given the laser code by a jtac + ingress/approach directions via voice comms. Since there is no CCRP mode implemented as of yet, the ballistic flight trajectory could be handled pretty liniently and you drop the laser guided bomb from gut feeling. Then the correct laser code given by the jtac guides the bomb in. This system provides for fun sp gameplay and allows for much more engaging cooperative gameplay in mp as well.  

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Please remember that these jets we are talking about ARE IN THE FUTURE !!  I find it odd that they wouldn't have active radar capability !

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@kremator....not for the A-10/164. Those APG radars are pretty big and i am not sure where you would place that in the A-164 nose,...squeeze it above the gun maybe.

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58 minutes ago, xon2 said:

@kremator....not for the A-10/164. Those APG radars are pretty big and i am not sure where you would place that in the A-164 nose,...squeeze it above the gun maybe.

 

Not to mention expensive and require large amounts of power and cooling systems. What's the point of putting a BVR radar into an A-10 (futurehog) if it's only going to fly low and slow. Besides, radar is way less stealthy. Radars emit loads of energy which alerts everyone nearby that you are here. A sneaky TGP with toggle-able laser is way harder to detect. Also the A-10 produces less noise due to the high by-pass ratio of the engines.

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i must say though, i have no idea what modern air-to-ground radars are capable of....whether it would do a better job of locating targets than a pilot via the tgp visually.

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3 hours ago, xon2 said:

i must say though, i have no idea what modern air-to-ground radars are capable of....whether it would do a better job of locating targets than a pilot via the tgp visually.

 

let's just say that they are super top secretly capable *wink*, but they still have one major drawback. They alert your presence. Ever wonder why highway patrol quit using radars to catch speeders? Because motorists started buying radar warning receivers. Now they all use laser. At least where I live

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I wonder how long it'll take them to start installing LWRs... :) 

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7 hours ago, dragon01 said:

I wonder how long it'll take them to start installing LWRs... :) 

 

They already did ;) on some radar warning receivers they can receive laser and give you a warning.

 

The only thing is, laser speed trap don't need a lot of time to get your speed. I'd think they can do that in less than 0.5s. Slamming the brake with perfect reflex probably couldn't help much.

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12 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

let's just say that they are super top secretly capable *wink*, but they still have one major drawback. They alert your presence. Ever wonder why highway patrol quit using radars to catch speeders? Because motorists started buying radar warning receivers. Now they all use laser. At least where I live

 

They're neuther secretly capable nor alert your presense a lot. Switching the srequency at dozens times per second does its job, and they're all the developments of the modern systems we know about, so their characteristics can be calculated or one can make an educated guess.

APARs like APG-88 usually aren't installed to the ground attack planes because they're powerful (meaning spotting the 1 m2 RCS target more than 150 nm away on the air background, more than 30 nm on the ground), which is the way above the capabilities of a ground attack jet like A-10 to engage, require shit load of energy indeed and relatively large, expensive and heavy. And require hours to maintain them too. Meanwhile all radars suffer from ground objects interference and problems with their filtering from the target. And last, but not least - they're capable of spotting the target, but completely cease to obtain any useful information to IDENTIFY it. Their resolution is way less than that for FLIR. They just lose to FLIR systems dramatically by price/combat effectiveness at the specific task/logistics costs. The ones installed on Longbow Apache are millimeter ones, they're smaller, have better resolution, but still suffer from the same problems. You simply need to know all these dots are enemies PRIOR to engaging. 

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1 hour ago, woore said:

You simply need to know all these dots are enemies PRIOR to engaging. 

 

AWACS / IFF Helps a lot :)

 

And true, Radars can discern geometric shapes from ground clutter, but not identify what the object is. Some radars can produce detailed images, but they still require a human operator to evaluate and assess the information.

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51 minutes ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

AWACS / IFF Helps a lot :)

 

And true, Radars can discern geometric shapes from ground clutter, but not identify what the object is. Some radars can produce detailed images, but they still require a human operator to evaluate and assess the information.

 

Yes, they help.

Not some radars, just the latest APAR with ground-attack modes, like APG-88. I've seen their images and well, they aren't remotely precise and high-resolution. You can distinguish a tank from a transport plane mostly by their size. The range in syntetic aperture mode is limited as well, don't recall to what extent though. So it's too much of a cash and logistics for such limited featureset. And purely CAS planes are better to be simple and inexpensive to be maintained from loosely prepared airstrips, since their range is more limited than that of figters like F-35.

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4 hours ago, darksidesixofficial said:

It would be nice to get a simple AWACS version of the Blackfish using the data link feature.

Altough first it would be nice if the Blackfish was actually useful in its primary role :)

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It is a pretty good troop and vehicle transport, if you're talking about that. The armed variant is so-so after the recent improvements (still a step up from before), but don't forget that it is, first and foremost a transport VTOL, where it works (even if the AI is lousy at flying it). 

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On 3. 4. 2017 at 9:20 PM, PredatorPie said:

Make it possible to control the targeting pod when it's not full screen and at least the following keybindings separately just for the pod; moving, toggle zoom, nvg/flir mode. Of course the current bindings should still work in full screen mode.

Switching display spectrums is already possible via panel modes (RCtrl+] or [). Moving has been discussed. But because our picture-in-picture doesn't provide an image good enough for precise targeting it doesn't seem that vital to have it. Most of the time you'd need to go fullscreen anyway.

On 3. 4. 2017 at 9:20 PM, PredatorPie said:
  • Slaving TGP to boresight

Num 5. You're welcome ;) (If you have a target marked, then Num 5 will take you to your target instead)

On 3. 4. 2017 at 9:20 PM, PredatorPie said:
  • Need a lot more movement speed when binding aiming (the pod) to an analog axis. Adjustable sensitivity would be nice.

The rot. speed is identical on keybinds and analog, just the mouse is much faster, right?

On 3. 4. 2017 at 9:20 PM, PredatorPie said:
  • Re-sizable panel windows.

Could be possible via a different iGUI preset. We may investigate that later, but everything takes time, as usually, no promises. Give us an extra 24h each day and you'll see wonders :)

On 3. 4. 2017 at 9:20 PM, PredatorPie said:

Separate key to toggle laser on/off. It's a bit annoying to switch weapons back and forth just to do that. Why do I even need to keep turning it on and off? Well I could say it's not polite to confuse other pilots by lasing at nothing, but it's mostly because of next thing :)

 

 

Any keybind ideas? :) Ideally coupled with a contextually similar but not conflicting. Light and col. lights come to mind, but those would conflict. Other ideas?

On 4. 4. 2017 at 4:30 PM, woore said:

Back to the topic, oukej, what air and ground vehicles will have visualTargetSize and irTargetSize of 1? It'd be good to have a measurement point for configuring our vehicles.

Darter - 0.1 :D
Parachute - 0.2 :P
Greyhawk, Ababil - 0.5
xh-9 family, Blackfoot, Caesar, Falcon - 0.7
Buzzard - 0.8
Wipeout, Neophron - 1.0
Tanks - 1.2
Xian - 1.4
Blackfish - 1.8

 

On 4. 4. 2017 at 8:33 PM, PredatorPie said:

"Next target" doesn't seem to work if I'm pointing at the target with only the pod. I think for "next target" to work the target needs to be in the macer lock on cone or otherwise identified? About your theory, the laser doesn't interfere with the final locking procedure of the macer, if the target is  "vehicle" (or more specific) on the sensor screen. It's just comes up there as "laser target" most of the time.

"Next target" toggles targets that are tracked by the sensor suite. Shouldn't work if you have weapon sensors only. Standard "Lock" pick what's under the cursor / center of view and works with everything.
The problem seems to be, that laser targets are prioritized. But Macer can't lock on laser target and you need to mark the actual vehicle. And laser can be blocking both ways of doing so. I'd say switch the laser off as a workaround for now :/

On 5. 4. 2017 at 2:01 AM, dragon01 said:

It flies onto the nearest laser target. I believe that's how it works like right now, and how it worked in ArmA2. "Locking onto" a laser is stupid - in reality, the missile will simply go into whatever direction the laser reflection is coming from (in fact, IRL, aircraft generally can't track lasers at all). Same goes for laser guided bombs. You don't need to "target" a laser, heck, you don't even need to see it. If you've got somebody on the ground (or another aircraft) painting the target, you could lob Hellfires from behind a hill and there'd be a good chance they'd find the laser after clearing the hill and successfully guide. Laser-guided arty shells are the best example of that.

This is possible to certain extent (as mentioned) by using autoSeekTarget . The munition still needs a marked target, but it doesn't require lock. It will fly towards the marked target and in the configured distance it will look for appropriate targets to lock onto. Usually that will be the marked target again (unless the marking was based on different type of sensor on the vehicle than what the missile will now use to search for targets).
So some form of LOAL is possible and we're investigating whether it's usable enough as it is and are considering using it at least on LGBs . But there are concerns about how to communicate that firing without a lock can be a valid approach as we don't have a scope to do big changes.
Other than that automatic locking (as on Titan AA now, or gen. heatseekers) in vehicles has proven to be a bigger issue than we thought and probably wont be possible.

On 5. 4. 2017 at 0:00 PM, Strike_NOR said:

I would also like to see a few handy TGP features:

  • Laser spot track

When in TGP view and piloting a jet/heli, allow the player to use a "Laser Spot Track" key bind to search the TGP sensor Field Of View of active laser designations, and slew the TGP to that spot. This will allow pilots to quickly find a laser designation and start asessing the target.

See the answer above and second reply in this post.

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On 5. 4. 2017 at 6:40 PM, snoops_213 said:

And is it me or has the buzzards radar range been increased to 8km now? Cause holy shit AA units are really fucked now lol. Oukej can you explain how the neophron (in fact all jets and helis) is targeting AA vehicles from 9Km+ with skapels and macers (and DAGR from around 7.0km)? If RWR can't target without proper missiles/components whats gives? I understand that with RWR the AI becomes aware of the active radar but its still outside my draw distance (8.5km) so it shouldn't be from my visual/thermal sensors and no radar. If i play the same thing with radar off i can have the planes circling 5km above the AA  and neither party would be aware of each other lol.  And vehicle rwr warns of a launch straight away no matter the launch distances. Shouldnt be sitting in a vehicle and have smoke go off because some plane 8 clicks away just shot at me. 

Buzzard isn't really good at finding radar targets near the ground, especially if they don't move, so there should be that balance. Otherwise the mentioned missiles haven't been reconfigured yet. Definitely crippled AAs is not our intention. Thanks for the notes!

On 6. 4. 2017 at 0:24 PM, xon2 said:

I totally appreciate what you have described over the last couple of posts. I am in the process of learning the dcs A-10c and the laser designation with unique laser codes provides some pretty fun gameplay. Since launch, BIS kept the A-164 as a CAS plane to a good deal dependet on a second element as JTAC, but it was always annyoing that you could not self designate. Why? As often stated, it was meant to encourgae 'combined, cooperative' gameplay. Now, i really think its about time to give the CAS planes a way to laser self designate as in real life.

Already in the game ;)

On 6. 4. 2017 at 0:24 PM, xon2 said:

For instance, in RL the A-10 has no radar installed. I am not on dev branch so i don't know whether a mp server could disable radar for specific aircraft or not. But imagine, if the A-164 on a server has no active radar capability and is totally dependet to find target with a tgp visually, having GPS cooridnates provided or dropping stuff on a laser with a specific code. With no active radar the A-164 would not see any white boxes designating targets on the ground, but would either have to find them visually (with tgp) or given the laser code by a jtac + ingress/approach directions via voice comms. Since there is no CCRP mode implemented as of yet, the ballistic flight trajectory could be handled pretty liniently and you drop the laser guided bomb from gut feeling.

There's even no Radar on Wipeout, you have to find targets via TGP (which can automatically track IR or VIS targets within its FoV). And there's at least a CCIP in the HUD for dumb fired bombs, cannons and rockets.
Installing dev-branch already? ;)

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8 hours ago, oukej said:

This is possible to certain extent (as mentioned) by using autoSeekTarget . The munition still needs a marked target, but it doesn't require lock. It will fly towards the marked target and in the configured distance it will look for appropriate targets to lock onto. Usually that will be the marked target again (unless the marking was based on different type of sensor on the vehicle than what the missile will now use to search for targets).
So some form of LOAL is possible and we're investigating whether it's usable enough as it is and are considering using it at least on LGBs . But there are concerns about how to communicate that firing without a lock can be a valid approach as we don't have a scope to do big changes.
Other than that automatic locking (as on Titan AA now, or gen. heatseekers) in vehicles has proven to be a bigger issue than we thought and probably wont be possible.

What do you mean "communicate"? I'm not sure what's the problem here. Can't you just say that in VR training or the manual? I don't think any indication of "if you fire now, the missile will lock later" will make sense. LOAL should be available on both LGBs and laser-guided missiles. In fact, marking a laser target seems redundant and somewhat silly to me (you already "mark" a target by pointing the laser at it. Why should it be needed to "lock on" to that?).

 

Also, it'd be a shame if vehicles couldn't autolock their missiles. What's the problem with them? 

Quote

Any keybind ideas? :) Ideally coupled with a contextually similar but not conflicting. Light and col. lights come to mind, but those would conflict. Other ideas

Maybe "C" or "B" would work? I don't think that aircraft use them for anything, currently. The latter is somewhat related (it brings up laser designators for infantry).

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8 hours ago, oukej said:

Any keybind ideas? :) Ideally coupled with a contextually similar but not conflicting. Light and col. lights come to mind, but those would conflict. Other ideas?

Why not Lx2? or swap lights with Lx2 and have laser as L? As for crippling the AA  why not have A2 version with a "block 2" titan missile with a "new" motor, to increase its range and radar guidance to overcome the short range of IR version? That way no model changes needed and we have a slightly longer ranged AA? 

25 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

What do you mean "communicate"? I'm not sure what's the problem here. Can't you just say that in VR training or the manual? I don't think any indication of "if you fire now, the missile will lock later" will make sense. LOAL should be available on both LGBs and laser-guided missiles. In fact, marking a laser target seems redundant and somewhat silly to me (you already "mark" a target by pointing the laser at it. Why should it be needed to "lock on" to that?).

 

 

 Yeah this should be a thing for LGBs and a indicator shouldn't be necessary as long as you put it into the area where the laser is you should have a good chance of a hit. 

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