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Damian90

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7 minutes ago, GBee2 said:

 

I'm really not sure what your point is?

 

You can turn out in all vehicles where the positions physically allow turn out? The driver and gunner cannot turn out in the Slammer (Merkava Mark IV) in real life. The Kuma driver can't turn out because they can't in the real-life Leopard 2 Revolution. The commander positions on all tanks can turn out, all positions on the T-100 can turn out and the gunner/commander on the Kuma can turn out.

 

In all cases where you can't turn out it's not a missing feature, but the design of the real world tanks.

 

You are not correct in everything.

 

In Merkava Mk4 driver can open hatch and turn out, same in Leopard 2 series including ones upgraded with Revolution kit.

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6 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

 

You are not correct in everything.

 

In Merkava Mk4 driver can open hatch and turn out, same in Leopard 2 series including ones upgraded with Revolution kit.

 

Neither hatch can physically be opened while the turret is not orientated forward, the turret covers the hatches? If BI were to implement turn out, it would have to lock the turret in position until the driver turned in again.

 

Edit: Correction Merkava driver hatch can only be opened when the turret is pointed  at 90 degrees to the sides? In Leopard it's the only when it's forward?

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6 minutes ago, GBee2 said:

 

Neither hatch can physically be opened while the turret is orientated forward, the turret covers the hatches? The hatches are purely for access purposes, they can't be used to increase visibility?

 

In real life, in case of both vehicles, hatches can be opened not matters where turret is orientated.

 

However you rarely seen it, because standard operating procedure for drivers in NATO armies or armies that are in terms of training and doctrine similiar to NATO ones, as SOP says, driver should keep his hatch closed when tank is operating in combat environment.

 

Of course if needed he still can open the hatch, get in or out through it, or just stick his head out for better visibility.

 

By the way in my previous post about Merkava Mk4 armor, you can see a photo of Merkava Mk4 driver hatch opened with turret facing forward.

 

LeopardIIA4Revolution.jpg

And here is Leopard 2 with IBD addon armor package used in Evolution and Revolution upgrade packages, as you can see, no problem with driver hatch being opened.

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7 minutes ago, Damian90 said:


And here is Leopard 2 with IBD addon armor package used in Evolution and Revolution upgrade packages, as you can see, no problem with driver hatch being opened.

 

Ok, we're talking at cross purposes here. The OP was talking about turning out, which is still physically impossible even in the picture you posted. The hatches might be open, but the only benefit, except maybe when going down a steep slope is fresh air and a little bit of blue sky.

 

I confused the issue by talking about hatches, when I meant the ability of the driver to stick out his head to get a better view.

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3 minutes ago, GBee2 said:

 

Ok, we're talking at cross purposes here. The OP was talking about turning out, which is still physically impossible even in the picture you posted. The hatches might be open, but the only benefit, except maybe when going down a steep slope is fresh air and a little bit of blue sky.

 

I confused the issue by talking about hatches, when I meant the ability of the driver to stick out his head to get a better view.

 

He can stick out his head, no problem. I was inside several Leopard 2 variants, or around them, including ones with turret addon armor, no problem with sticking out your head.

Same with Merkava Mk4 or earlier Merkava variants. I know at least one Israeli tanker who served on Merkava Mk4, and I can ask him again for confirmation.

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Sorry to doubt you but there's absolutely no room to do so.

 

Edit: When turret is not in the right position, as described earlier.

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there is no issue in as driver turning out. mainly we do it when needing to drive around garages or on the roads... or when in firing positions to go orient yourself with the terrain around you.... the hatch on the 2a4 revolution does swing to the right, which makes the driver able to crawl out and in if needed and look up... usually only with turret at its 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock position since the turret if not would block that but hatch can be opened as damian said... convoy travelling always happens with turret either at 12 or at 6'oclock...

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1 minute ago, dk||ses|| said:

there is no issue in as driver turning out. mainly we do it when needing to drive around garages or on the roads... or when in firing positions to go orient yourself with the terrain around you.... the hatch on the 2a4 revolution does swing to the right, which makes the driver able to crawl out and in if needed and look up... usually only with turret at its 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock position since the turret if not would block that but hatch can be opened as damian said... convoy travelling always happens with turret either at 12 or at 6'oclock...

 

Right, which is what I said earlier, only when the turret is locked in the forward (or rear) facing position for the Kuma (Leopard) (or seemingly at 90 degrees for the Merkava which would be impractical for convoy on normal roads) . Both of which would require the game to simulate the same, gunner unable to move the turret if the driver was turned out.

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well its not hard to implement turret locking in arma... its simple configging..                  lockWhenDriverOut= 1; that little line there locks the turret

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Yeah, we have it in RHS where turret is locked in proper position. BWMod do the same.

 

In Leopard 2 Revolution/MBT-52 BI could use the same position as Leopard 2A6M in BWMod uses, and Merkava Mk4/M2A1 Slammer should lock the turret 12 o'clock.

Simple as that.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Damian90 said:

Yeah, we have it in RHS where turret is locked in proper position. BWMod do the same.

 

In Leopard 2 Revolution/MBT-52 BI could use the same position as Leopard 2A6M in BWMod uses, and Merkava Mk4/M2A1 Slammer should lock the turret 12 o'clock.

Simple as that.

 

 

 

Merkava driver hatch is off-centre, it would have to lock the turret at a minimum of something like 45 degrees. It would also lock the gun elevation to high since the driver would be crushed if the gun was declined in both case?

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7 minutes ago, GBee2 said:

Merkava driver hatch is off-centre, it would have to lock the turret at a minimum of something like 45 degrees. It would also lock the gun elevation to high since the driver would be crushed if the gun was declined in both case?

 

There is enough space there for drivers head, and Merkava Mk4 is designed in such way, that turret is locked 12 o'clock when driver hatch is opened, also during long range movement in non combat conditions, notice where external gun lock is lockated, at the center of the upper front hull plate, so turret is locked 12 o'clock.

 

MerkavaSimanArbaBAZstraightON.jpg

MerkavaIVCallingInAerialFireRetardent.jp

And another example, turret facing 12 o'clock and drivers hatch opened.

 

 

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Well I'll take your word for it. It still doesn't look possible for the driver to be able to put out his head, helmet and all and see anything at all over the prisms with the turret in that position. Measured from the centre point of the hatch, to the underside of the turret, it's what 20 cms at most?

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You can do it because you do not stick out your entire head obviously. You only stick out as much to be able to see outside world without using periscope vision blocks.

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I dont know how its done in merkava, but in LEO all addon armour have cutted space for drivers head.
In mekrava Its enough space for head, if not for fully turn out, lets just say 50%, so you can keep your eyes above hull roof level.

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Not necessarily a tank in the sense of Kuma, T-100, etc. but you can't turn out in the Kamysh. :>

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7 minutes ago, lexx said:

Not necessarily a tank in the sense of Kuma, T-100, etc. but you can't turn out in the Kamysh. :>

 

Yep, and it should be possible, there are visible hatches.

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Ok now about Leopard 2/MBT-52 Kuma armor.

 

Let's start with base armor. MBT-52 Kuma is simply Leopard 2A4 with Revolution upgrade package, which means that base armor of the Leopard 2A4 is not replaced, and only addon armor is added. This means that in terms of protection, such tank only reach protection levels of more deeply upgraded vehicles that uses improved base armor.

 

Now, because Leopard 2 have a rather complex shape of it's base armor, a proper graphic can explain how it's distributed on vehicle.

 

lpG9XVq.jpg

 

Ok now what does this mean.

 

In case of hull front it means that altough composite armor module is relatively thick (around ~600-640mm), it's shaped in such way that protection is not even on it's entire surface, in other words, the lower you aim and hit, the thinner is front hull composite armor.

 

Similiar situation with turret. As we can see on the drawing, the right turret cheek have a very complex shape due to placement of gunner primary sight, and due to that there is significant weak zone there.

 

NOTE! This significant weak zone is present in all Leopard 2 variants, it was slightly reduced in A5 and newer variants, but it's still there.

 

What I mean by a weak zone, this is how the gunner primary sight area looks like in reality, on example of Leopard 2HEL (an improved Greek A6 variant).

 

cCHn3bZ.jpg

 

In general this means that there is a weak zone directly behind the sight and below it. Below in front of the sight there is around 200mm of armor, then gap for the sight components not visible from the outside, then 660mm of armor. Directly behin the sight there is around 660mm of armor. 

 

Leopard-2A4-LOSy.jpg

 

In general this drawing shows the armor distribution on Leopard 2A4. These are not estimations, but meassures done on real vehicle by my friend. NOTE! Do not confuse armor due to colors, red just shows so called weaker protected zones like gun mantled and hatch.

Hatch itself have the same thickness of 40mm as the upper front hull plate.

 

However Leopard 2 in game as MBT-52 Kuma is upgraded with Revolution upgrade package which involves addon armor.

 

These armor modules due to the weight restrictions to not exceed significantly weight limit of 60 metric tons, are not very dense, and to further reduce weight, are made from nanometric steel and nanoceramics. However their thickness is enough to bring protection levels up to standards of modern tanks.

 

The thickness of front turret modules are around 600mm, with sides for turrrt and front of around 300mm. Hull front module is around 40mm over upper front hull plate, and exceeds 100mm over lower front hull composite armor module.

 

Base side hull armor is relatively thin not exceeding 60mm over crew compartment, and not exceeding around 30mm over engine compartment.

 

So the tank over majority of frontal and side areas should provide comparable protection with Merkava Mk4M known in game as M2A1 Slammer.

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I played Iron Front since week. Iron Front was in A2 engine, and i just saw how great effects can be, if developers just want to.
- When there is penetration of tank armor, something like smoke should appear on all hatches in moment of hit (or dust), then when some part was heavly damaged, smoke should be more intensive, and in case of critical hit, fire should appear, not explosions - this look very silly, when all tanks explode just like in case of ammo explosion - this can happen after certain time, when fire will get the ammo containers. (just look how georgeus they did it in Iron Front)

- Detachable parts of additional armor (side Skirts, all side armors fitted to this (ERA for example), fenders, equipment fitted externally - if used, externall mounted spare parts, all that can be detached in RL)
- CORRECT PhysX for tracked vehicles, for no jumping 1KM high beacuse of hitting some tent, bush or tree. Also launching tank in random direction should be finally fixed.
- AI crews shall use HE rounds for Infantry, static weapons and light vehicles - its done in Iron Front, so its able to gain in engine.
- Possibility to destroy sight glass, to not let gunner properly aim at target (extra) - not made in Iron Front, but possible in A3 Engine.

Thats just my 2 cents.

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On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 8:31 AM, Vasily.B said:


- Possibility to destroy sight glass, to not let gunner properly aim at target (extra) - not made in Iron Front, but possible in A3 Engine.
 

 

YES!  Reminds me of Russian use of 14.5mm AT rifles during WWII to shoot out sight glass and other glassed vision slits on armor and APCs.

 

 

 

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Upgrade the coax-es to .338 for M2A1 and 9.3 for T-100, using the 6.5 in the M2A1 would be analogous to using an M249 as the M1A2's coax.

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hi guys, couldn't read entire topic.

is it revealed which tank models will be available? 

are they going to be fictional tanks or known models? i don't want to see fictional future tanks. 

tanks like m-60, t-72 would be great imo.

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1 hour ago, cenkcnk said:

hi guys, couldn't read entire topic.

is it revealed which tank models will be available? 

are they going to be fictional tanks or known models? i don't want to see fictional future tanks. 

tanks like m-60, t-72 would be great imo.

I'm afraid not, at the moment all we know is that its coming around Q4? of this year and that it involves tanks. Any info regarding the DLC in this thread is pretty much pure speculation. Given that the Jets DLC was said to be due out sometime in Q1 and we've still yet to see the new aircrafts it's safe to say we'll know nothing solid about the Tanks DLC until at least this summer unfortunately.

 

As far as what your asking for, the only way we're going to see anything less than cutting edge modern/futuristic is if the armored vehicles in question are being made for FIA or Syndikat, which I highly doubt. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if the vehicles in the DLC aren't even actual tanks, but vehicles to fill in the gaps in the current unit list, in fact, if they do add actual tanks with the DLC, unless what I've already stated about FIA happens, they will likely be even more futuristic than the current tanks in game, which by the way aren't really futuristic. Because at the moment the 3 main factions already have good solid tanks, not perfect, but solid, so any tanks added to those factions would likely be meant to supersede the current tanks in them, which would mean more futuristic or fictional tanks. But as I said I think that it's likely going to be other armored vehicles besides tanks that get added, because filling in the blanks seems to be the going theme with BI's DLC's so far, marksmen added MMG's for NATO and CSAT, Helicopters added heavy lift aircraft for NATO and CSAT. So I expect Tanks DLC will add something in the armored vehicle category still missing or not very fleshed out in the main factions, maybe better AA or AT vehicles for some factions?

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odie0351's got a good point -- heck, as much as people may believe that "air superiority jets" is a niche that doesn't merit filling, they're the only aircraft type stated for the Jets DLC, soooo...

 

The main vanilla armor gaps I can think of are (as odie0351 also speculated) AA/AT vehicle options, but then the main ways I can think of to fill them would be new turrets for existing APCs/MRAPs which (as variants of existing vehicles) should not be behind the paywall like all-new armor would be, while "legacy armor" seems thematically out of bounds with Bohemia's seeming favoritism for BLUFOR/REDFOR (just when did we last get a GREENFOR exclusive?)...

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