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Damian90

Tanks DLC Feedback

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We really need ability to use modern multi purpose rounds, like airburst or delayed. It is way overdue.

Not only on tanks, but also artillery, IFV, airplane bombs and machine grenade launchers (XM307).

While some mods have it by using scripts, such as ABX on Puma in BW mod, or on BMP3 in RHS, it should be vanilla function universal to all units.

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"real" fuzes are long overdue... i just hate it when a round hits the ground at a shallow angle, explodes, but at the same time bounces off the terrain and may hit something else and explode yet again. Its silly.

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"real" fuzes are long overdue... i just hate it when a round hits the ground at a shallow angle, explodes, but at the same time bounces off the terrain and may hit something else and explode yet again. Its silly.

You can observe this with almost any HE ammo.

As long as the projectile hits anything at a shallow enough angle you can hear the explosion sound with the projectile still flying.

 

Also the issue lex__1 mentioned needs to be fixed.

driving a tank at speed with the gunner moving the cannon makes the entire tank swerve.

 

Cheers

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You can observe this with almost any HE ammo.

negative, if projectile has explosive value > 0.7  it dissappears on the first thing it hits (leaf of a tree etc).

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since we are at it -

please make recoil force configurable (currently hardcoded) and give shotShell the same features as shotBullet (initspeed override, multiple memorypoint option)  https://feedback.bistudio.com/T121475

and bug:

turretstabilization for turrets that shouldn't have stabilization https://feedback.bistudio.com/T121429

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Does vanilla Arma 3 have tank main gun concussion stuff like ACE does? Was thinking if wasn't in Vanilla that would be a nice addition to tanks. 

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In the first seconds of video - axis offset ballistic computer AI,
for an explosive charge HE, T-100 on. Centre sight arrow above the target. But AI is on target. Keeping sight position, your shot is off target.

https://youtu.be/2SHxhEWiyQw
How it works ?
AI gunner is ballistic eyes on the target?
In 99,9% AI arrow hits the target.
tank gunner player has no ballistic correction optics, optical center does not match with ballistics barrel in most situations. The only factor drawing and the brightness of the green square to the target.
Manual adjustment of shooting distance does not correct ballistics shot to the center of the sight optics. Correction takes place relative to the horizontal line of sight optics.
When the tank is not smooth, with a slope of the hull to the left or right arrow frame optical sight and the commander will also have a slope. The reason for the absence of angular stabilization optics. tank gunner player has no reference points on the lens for precise shots are usually necessary to make a few shots, to their own adjustments. To speak in this case about the shooting at a moving target does not make sense. You do not have any reference points in the sight and ballistic capture no purpose.
The tanks used games mesh sighting frame scopes modern tank with onboard ballistic computer, the capture and target tracking. Implemented all only arrow AI, no implementation for the player hand.

Personnel at the end of the video clip show -
The total lack of inclusion AUTO correction distance for a shot discontinuous in the infantry.
Laser lights drone did not help to do it.

 

AI view of an optical sight, relative to the point of impact

The_offset_axis_ballistic_computer.jpg

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T83302

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Well besdies what everyelse wants down below... 

I think that APS should have a rearming timer so that you can kill a tank with teamwork and multiple warheads, and RPG such as the RPG 30 can be effectice aganist such systems, also a limited ammo count for APS usage and a dirrection in which the APS will work, so if a system like the Drozd which only works on the front of the tank and has 4 rounds for each side 8 in total. 

 

 

working Heat, AP rounds 

killing crew and destroying/ damaging modules inside.

Modules similar to war thunder

vehicle interior with working view ports possible fix PIP

manual gearbox

ect 

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People seem to have mentioned most, but some more simpler things I would like to see is a few more default Ai behavior in regards to vehicles.

 

Ai default behavior:

 

Turrets:

If an Ai is in a gunner seat of a tank or large turret IFV (Stryker 105mm, CV90 or Bradley etc) and in combat mode. He should not watch a "hard" direction, but scan a bit left and right of that direction. Watch North should, in combat mode, mean a gunner scans the turret between NE to NW. If hes ordered to watch somewhere else like South. He should do that and if nothing after a few sec, start scanning slowly between SW and SE.

 

Minor turrets on lesser vehicles like a gunner Ai on a Landrover or something should automatically scan 360 in a slow manner if in combat unless told to watch a given direction and if so do the same as the "large turret" units.

 

Vehicle Formations:

Ai formation should have presets that are dependent on how many they are and what formation they are using. Basically, if an Ai commander has 4 tanks under hes command and in combat mode. The "where to look" default should be in regards to type of formation. So line formation would be all units scan front, bit left and bit right in ref to hull heading. If its a column then the lead vehicle would scan N,NW,NE, the next would East, NE, NW  and so on so you would get a more visually realistic combat advancement.

 

Hull down and up:

Ai, if on a hill or similar, should have an ability to reverse into cover between main shots like 120mm and so on. Obviously slightly slower than humans do in real life, but it should have the ability to do so. I think this would be doable if Arma had a dedicated "reverse" core script command that enabled units to just reverse instead of turning around or similar silly stuff. With such a command one could check if terrain behind vehicle was ca 10m lower than current position and thereby deduct if it will have terrain cover if it backs up 5-15 meters. If yes, then do the back and forth between shots etc to emulate what tanks would do in real life. If the tank hits something while reversing, just have a max time to reach "reverse point" and if that time experiences break out of the "hull" up down script with a few min cool down before recheck. Most likely the contact will be over by then with the tank winning or destroyed before it does a recheck behind after shooting at an enemy.

 

Catastrophic damage:

There should be a check on damage done. If the incoming fire on a Ai tank does "massive damage", aka the tank blows up. The Ai should be deleted from the vehicle instead of having that silly "thrown out" thing one sees today.

 

Crew bail:

A crew leaving a tank after its disabled should be a % thing. Basically to emulate panic. A zero chance of panic should prevent the Ai from leaving regardless and so on. Giving mission makers the option towards what they feel is more fitting. If the Ai panics because of disabling damage they should get out and flee away from enemies or have a switch between flee or defend vehicle.

 

 

3D modeling and armor:

 

Reactive armor:
I think Bi should consider making (modern) tanks in a manner that reactive armor are separate parts added on the core model. I am not thinking of this in regards to older T72 type reactive all over the place armor which would be impracticable, but the more larger part of default hull types one start seeing today on the Leo 2 ingame or the Russian T14 etc. This so one can, similar to Ironfront (ww2 game based on Arma engine), have more realistic armor while at the same time being able to blow those separate parts off without having some "decrease value to penetrate" thing. Its ether penetrate, yes no or reactive armor triggered. A tank takes a side shot, the reactive armor triggers, the model part falls off/blow up etc and you see the core model under. How weapons act can be a setting on if they have tandem HEAT or similar. Basically a tandem HEAT would be a double hit for for example 150mm/1100mm. Meaning if the reactive armor has 50mm to trigger. It will blow and the armor under it will then only be defeated if its less than the second charge of 1100mm. A modder wants to change the core model with new types of reactive armor or similar he can do so without needing the change the whole tank and so on. Reactive armor than be config changed etc. I also think this will make it easier in the future, Arma 4 or whatever, to "update" tanks with differing looks and such if such tech was added.

 

 

Just to explain a bit more with numbers on tandem HEAT: (RA= Reactive armor. HA=Homogeneous armor, aka pure steel)

Missile: 50mm/800mm. Armor: 30mmRA/900mmHA. Result: RA destroyed, tank unharmed.

Missile: 20mm/800mm. Armor: 30mmRA/900mmHA. Result: RA not triggered, RA destroyed, tank unharmed.

Missile: 20mm/1000mm. Armor: 30mmRA/900mmHA. Result: RA not triggered, RA destroyed, tank unharmed.

Missile: 50mm/1000mm. Armor: 30mmRA/900HA. Result: RA destroyed, tank destroyed.

Missile: 1500mm (no tandem HEAT). Armor: 30mmRA/900mmHA. Result: RA destroyed, tank unharmed.

 

(Sabot needs some game wise math formula to decide if it penetrates. For example maybe: SabotPen=RA+HA*1.3)

Sabot: 1000mm Armor: 30mmRA/900mmHA. Result: RA destroyed, tank unharmed. (30+900*1.3=1209-1000=+209)

Sabot: 1500mm Armor: 30mmRA/900mmHA. Result: RA destroyed, tank destroyed. (30+900*1.3=1209-1500=-291)

Sabot value = On contact at X range. Obviously mm would reduce over range, but that is not the point here.

 

 

 

My2cent apart from the standard stuff other people have mentioned.

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ZMLorg.jpg

vXgvdp.jpg

yNPr87.jpg

BMP-3kulelArma_zps4d83edbe.jpg

 

We need the big brother of MSE-3 Marid - Maybe we can call it MSE-4 Wardog ? I mean look at that BMP-3 Turret ;)

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@JojoTheSlayer have writed very well about vehicle formations - one vehicle should scan one direction, second vehicle should scan second direction, etc, so in resoult whole field of viev should be scanned except rear.

Vehicle repairs

Ability to take toolbox in hands - please, imagine situation if you cant find backpack on the battlefield, and you need to fix vehicle - you will NOT BE ABLE TO (in arma). If this limit could been killed, you could take toolbox from vehicle (equipp all vehicles with toolboxes) directly to your hands, and start fixing the vehicle.

To fix vehicle you would need 2 people - driver and gunner or commander, so one of them could cover you from vehicle. So when you are nex to the damaged vehicle, you choose action to fix it from action menu, and your character are waiting till second of crew will come next to you (he will be forced to by order, disregarding nearby enemy) and once he will stand next to you, animation of fixing on both of you start to play, and repaired component will be fixed.

Eventuall smoke cover from vehicle would be nice addition.

Vehicle communications

Are vehicle should spread informations between each other about enemy positions. It should depend of range - for example tank would comunicate to range of 5KM, jets, choppers - 8KM.

APU

 

To wait for enemy convoy (AI) you usually need to take down his fuel so he will stand in one place, or place module to wont let him move at all. Auxillary Power Unit order would be nice addition to this. Once after that order tank will switch engine OFF, and work on APU. APU would be an order of vehavior in this case.

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5 hours ago, Vasily.B said:

Vehicle repairs

Ability to take toolbox in hands - please, imagine situation if you cant find backpack on the battlefield, and you need to fix vehicle - you will NOT BE ABLE TO (in arma). If this limit could been killed, you could take toolbox from vehicle (equipp all vehicles with toolboxes) directly to your hands, and start fixing the vehicle.

To fix vehicle you would need 2 people - driver and gunner or commander, so one of them could cover you from vehicle. So when you are nex to the damaged vehicle, you choose action to fix it from action menu, and your character are waiting till second of crew will come next to you (he will be forced to by order, disregarding nearby enemy) and once he will stand next to you, animation of fixing on both of you start to play, and repaired component will be fixed.

 

Interesting ideas!  On that note, currently if a vehicle is damaged to a certain degree, AI cannot enter it no matter what, even though a human player can.  Many times I have had to enter a damaged, immobile tank to use perfectly functional gun and turret to defend since I cannot order my AI squadmates to do so.  This should be changed so that if human player can enter a damaged vehicle, AI should be able to also.

 

Edit:  The Tank DLC could provide a logical opportunity to fix the inability of AI to refuel vehicles at petrol stations on terrains:

 

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T85572

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3 hours ago, OMAC said:

 

Interesting ideas!  On that note, currently if a vehicle is damaged to a certain degree, AI cannot enter it no matter what, even though a human player can.  Many times I have had to enter a damaged, immobile tank to use perfectly functional gun and turret to defend since I cannot order my AI squadmates to do so.  This should be changed so that if human player can enter a damaged vehicle, AI should be able to also.

 

Edit:  The Tank DLC could provide a logical opportunity to fix the inability of AI to refuel vehicles at petrol stations on terrains:

 

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T85572

You can try my addon (made by lot of people and finally relased by me) as palceholder. I wish Bohemia could take this addon, and improve it, then put into game. Right now (in vanilla) automated AI behavior works very bad in terms of damaged vehicle. They will not get back to vehicle after it gets repaired. Its very strange, i reported it years ago, even recorded movie.

AI is getting back to vehicle which was upside down, and was fixed on tracks, so behavior in game is present but not used in damage-fix circumstate. And most important - someone need to fix this vehicle, isnt it? ;)

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^ ^ Your addon looks cool.  For me in vanilla, at least a few weeks ago, I was able to order AI subordinates into a repaired tank (Kuma, Bingo Fuel mission).

 

On another note, should BI decide to add one or more AFVs for the Tank DLC (I'd be happy with new, complex, SP-compatible missions, updated armor/damage models, and some bugs fixed, personally), what about a 2035 version of this little number!  :shoot:

 

Shortest version:

 

Short, firing only, techno soundtrack:

 

Full version with awesome metal soundtrack:

 

Terminator 2 (lighter by 3 tons, grenade launchers removed to reduce crew to 3, redesigned turret with AT missiles covered in protective armor, badass urban camo paintjob):

 

Idea for mellow, calming soundtrack to put people into proper mood for Tank DLC (first song, The Beast) :f::

 

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16 hours ago, OMAC said:

^ ^ Your addon looks cool.  For me in vanilla, at least a few weeks ago, I was able to order AI subordinates into a repaired tank (Kuma, Bingo Fuel mission).

 

 

Yes, YOU ordered, but AI commander will not do this.

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3 hours ago, Vasily.B said:

Yes, YOU ordered, but AI commander will not do this.

 

Yes, it seems to me that if an AI-controlled tank had waypoints and the tank gets damaged, surviving crew should re-enter the tank once it is repaired (by anybody) and proceed with the existing waypoints.  And it would be even better if, like in your addon, the crew at least tries to repair the tank themselves.  :scratchchin:

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Since we're talking anecdotes about armor here... planted a Tigris and an airborne Huron in the Editor back-to-back with each behind the other so that the Huron would be flying away upon preview start... don't know why an AI Tigris crewman called the contact, but at least he didn't turn the turret to engage the Huron until I'd switched on the active radar and the Huron was detected and tracked on the Tigris' sensor display.

 

Although the first post of the sensor overhaul thread specifies that "Tanks have a narrow field (60°) IR sensor to allow for ballistic computer and targeting aids. Tanks however don't have any sensor display", the above AI behavior might have interesting implications for community-made armored vehicles...

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GUYS you are missing something far more simple than any of these features I CAN'T FUCKING TURN OUT in most vanilla vehicles.

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I hope the Tanks DLC will allow us to have PROPER AI for tanks.... a gunner that will track and fire automatically, a commander that will call targets and a driver that can REVERSE !

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I remember addon for this feature. Don`t know about work in 1.66

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26618

Spoiler

Features:

Vehicles assess the threat/value of the targets and fire at the most dangerous/valueable target it range. It will prefer AT rifleman over autorifleman, tank over MRAP etc. Threat and value calculations use the type of target, distance and ammo types available (for tanks only). For example: AT rifleman 700m away is a more valuable target for the tank than MRAP-HMG at the same distance, but only if the tank has HE rounds. Otherwise it will prefer to fire AP round at MRAP, as the infantry unit is unreachable with current weapons. But AT rifleman still remains more dangerous than MRAP.

Tanks will use appropriate rounds (if available) for different types of targets: HE for infantry and static weapons, HEAT for lightly armored targets (MRAPs, trucks), AP for heavily armored (tanks, APCs etc).

Tanks will identify groups of infantry and use HE rounds agains them. A group is 3+ men in 15m radius. By default the tanks will not spend HE rounds on a single infantry unit (unless it's a high-threat AT soldier).

If the vehicle is a tracked vehicle (tank, tracked APC etc), it rotates the hull to face the most dangerous target.

If the threat is too high (for example an AT soldier at a close range), the moving vehicle will stop immediately, rotate the hull and fire. When the immediate threat is eliminated, it will proceed with the previous move order. This will presumably save the vehicle in situations when a hit is inevitable and the best decision is to stop and take the hit to the frontal armor rather than continue moving and take the hit to the side/rear.

 

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14 hours ago, sammael said:

I remember addon for this feature. Don`t know about work in 1.66

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26618

  Reveal hidden contents

Features:

Vehicles assess the threat/value of the targets and fire at the most dangerous/valueable target it range. It will prefer AT rifleman over autorifleman, tank over MRAP etc. Threat and value calculations use the type of target, distance and ammo types available (for tanks only). For example: AT rifleman 700m away is a more valuable target for the tank than MRAP-HMG at the same distance, but only if the tank has HE rounds. Otherwise it will prefer to fire AP round at MRAP, as the infantry unit is unreachable with current weapons. But AT rifleman still remains more dangerous than MRAP.

Tanks will use appropriate rounds (if available) for different types of targets: HE for infantry and static weapons, HEAT for lightly armored targets (MRAPs, trucks), AP for heavily armored (tanks, APCs etc).

Tanks will identify groups of infantry and use HE rounds agains them. A group is 3+ men in 15m radius. By default the tanks will not spend HE rounds on a single infantry unit (unless it's a high-threat AT soldier).

If the vehicle is a tracked vehicle (tank, tracked APC etc), it rotates the hull to face the most dangerous target.

If the threat is too high (for example an AT soldier at a close range), the moving vehicle will stop immediately, rotate the hull and fire. When the immediate threat is eliminated, it will proceed with the previous move order. This will presumably save the vehicle in situations when a hit is inevitable and the best decision is to stop and take the hit to the frontal armor rather than continue moving and take the hit to the side/rear.

 

Yes, i know this also, but its very outdated.
 

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Dear Bohemia Interactive developers. Considering Tanks DLC we also need to take in to consideration that vehicles, especially tanks armor model needs to be improved.

 

I will post here my recent research on the subject for tanks that are already in game, and will start with NATO M2A1 Slammer based on Merkava Mk4M.

 

Just recently some more reference materials were released, and now we can say a bit more about this tank. Which I must say, become kinda more impressive for me.

 

dUKtUD4.jpgvTEzaoy.jpg

 

So this is the placement of composite armor on Merkava Mk4. Composite armor protects turret front, sides and top, and also hull front and sides.

 

About the hull armor, let's start with it's sides protection.

48sDsC6.jpg

As we can see hull sides themselfs are protected by homogeneus rolled steel armor, which have maximum thickness of around 80mm. However sides are protected by additional composite armor modules (orange) both in form of solid modules and side skirts. Side skirts are around 100-150mm thick, while solid modules protecting upper hull sides, seems to be around 300mm thick.

Also as you can see belly armor is spaced, and shaped in to shallow V, it's also empty inside, thus providing good protection against underbelly mine and IED blasts.

 

Now let's speak about front hull armor.

iW64u5G.jpg
WzMt0GF.jpg

 

The upper front hull armor is actually impressive, it's a 200mm thick two piece composite armor module creating both front upper hull armor and engine deck. This upper front hull is angled at around 72 degrees, thus effective armor thickness head on is around 650mm.

 

However lower front hull armor is thinner and simpler being only homogeneus steel armor with thickness of 80mm max.

 

Tu14rzE.jpg
kH6IFvY.jpg

 

Additional protection here is added by a fuel tank, and transmission block, however any hit here will immobilize vehicle.

 

Ok now turret. What is interesting and unique for Merkava Mk4 is that turret front and side armor provides more or less equal protection.

 

kboH5m1.jpg

 

Now about turret roof.

is12sNf.jpg
aYNF5Qx.jpg
daGFIoA.jpg

Turret roof protected is by 200mm thick composite armor modules. Also commander hatch and optional loader hatch are 200mm thick and is made from composite armor.

Hull roof protection is something around 40mm.

MerkavaIII-Ref_Images-29.jpg

 

Speaking about commander hatch, it have very specific opening and closing movement pattern.

 


You can see it in this video at 0:45.

 

As for rear hull and turret armor, it's less effective, and spaced. Rear hull is made from two, around 40mm plates, and inside primary fuel tanks are placed. Also rear door altough they look super thick, in reality are made as spaced armor, so they can be light enough to be opened or closed.

 

iAD2q8M.jpg

 

Additional protection is provided by foldable storage baskets mounted to the hull and turret rear. These storage baskets also sometimes supplemented with steel chains, act as spaced armor against RPG's.

 

f0a64f2bea3de2d36a71bb13bbb79bdd.jpg

Of course armor thickness alone is not everything, there is of course protection it provides against Kinetic Energy Projectiles and Chemical Energy Projectiles, this is problematic subject due to classified nature of modern tanks armor, however considering real combat performance, we can assume that front turret armor is capable to provide protection against ATGM's like 9M133 Kornet, and thus front turret and upper front hull should provide protection comparable to other modern tanks like newest M1 variants, or newest Leopard 2 variants.

What is worth to note, heavy APC Namer, also known in game as IFV-6 Panther, should have exactly the same hull protection + hull roof protection equal to turret roof protection of the tank.

 

In general Merkava Mk4 or M2A1/A4 Slammer in game, should be probably be heaviest protected tank, considering the most recent research.

Later on I will try to provide similiar data for Leopard 2A4 Revolution known in game sas MBT-52 Kuma, and Object 640 known in game as T-100 Varsuk.

I would also want to encourage Bohemia Interactive developers involved with Tanks DLC to participate in topic, it's a very wide subject to discuss, and I believe your direct questions about specific vehicles can be more benefitial than flood of posts. ;)

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On 23/12/2016 at 11:48 PM, knightlight said:

GUYS you are missing something far more simple than any of these features I CAN'T FUCKING TURN OUT in most vanilla vehicles.

 

I'm really not sure what your point is?

 

You can turn out in all vehicles where the positions physically allow turn out? The driver and gunner cannot turn out in the Slammer (Merkava Mark IV) in real life. The Kuma driver can't turn out because they can't in the real-life Leopard 2 Revolution. The commander positions on all tanks can turn out, all positions on the T-100 can turn out and the gunner/commander on the Kuma can turn out.

 

In all cases where you can't turn out it's not a missing feature, but the design of the real world tanks.

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