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Water, Water & Water

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  1. 1. Would you like to see more water play style?



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I'm sure the community can side with me on this one.

 

I love ArmA, I have 7000 hours combined since Harvest Red. I try to play every aspect of the game equally, but I find lacking in one sector - the waterborne aspect. Awesome, we have 4-5 vehicles to play with and diver suits water guns etc., this was expressed greatly in the Alpha with Stratis when the team always showed us that the game would be balanced on all zones. 

 

With Tanoa, I really really do feel that something is missing in the Ocean, during the campaign I've always heard the soldiers talk about ships and the pacific. Ok we have the pacific, but where are the ships? I've been to all the coral reefs and explored them underwater in Tanoa, but its not enough. Tanoa is a beautiful map, but some of the Islands are only accessible by boat.

 

Honestly, I would love to see more features, objects and environments in the water: boats, static ships, bases (since CSAT is a "destabilization" force which is like what, China and Iran?), more water-borne units (Landing Craft lets say). Hell, what is this Blue line industrial port and message saying "Tanoa has been devastated by its shipping industry", there are no ships on Tanoa.

 

I'm not saying BI didn't do a good job, they did, definitely. They're adding all these new launchers, units and out-of-game features and kind of missing something that was 50% of us (the community)'s focus back 3 years ago. Regardless, awesome game.

 

Sorry for the grammatical errors, I did this in a hurry.

Thanks!

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The Problem is all interesting Seacombat in the Open Sea happens with big Vessels with huge Crews and stuff like that is out of scope.

River Combat on the other Hand with Patrol Boats would be awesome but there are no rivers. I was disappointed with Tanoa lacking any rivers.

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Things I would like to see:

  • Better interaction with objects while underwater. In most cases I can't get addAction to work with objects underwater. I can't normally open large containers while underwater. Makes many possible gameplay options impossible.
  • Attach explosives to vehicles/objects while under water. In most cases the only real option to use explosives under water is to put the explosives on the water's bottom and hope the effect reaches your target.
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The Problem is all interesting Seacombat in the Open Sea happens with big Vessels with huge Crews and stuff like that is out of scope.

River Combat on the other Hand with Patrol Boats would be awesome but there are no rivers. I was disappointed with Tanoa lacking any rivers.

I don't think huge crew would be any issue, since crewmember in vehicle is basically nothing but a value in variable.

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My #1 Wish!

 

Water, water, ....and Water! YES!!!!!!!!!!!! I can completely understand not having large ships due to game engine limits. But smaller boats and even just STATIC SHIPS would be AWESOME.

 

There have been several threads about this in the recent past. I don't think any (rational) person would ever vote against it. If you count the KM2 of Tanoa, Altis or Stratis (since you can go off the map into forever water), then 90% of the Map is.... wait for it.... WATER.

 

I was extremely disappointed with no Swamps, or Rivers on Tanoa. What a bummer. BIS doesn't seem to care much for the water aspect. Which is sad since they would be the ONLY game/sim to have a heavy focus on that environment (that is a huge multi-style infantry sandbox focus that is). Can you imagine a River Patrol in the thick, humid, jungles of Tanoa. Slinking back and forth through the soup and muck....

 

There are also several issues with the whole water thing as well. No Sidearm in the Wetsuits. You can NOT open your inventory when underwater (what the hell?). You can't place/drop items, chems, explosives, etc. And the list goes on! I had a huge list on another post in the past so I'm not going to repeat it.

 

I think BIS is missing a golden business opportunity here, with so few Paid DLCs. I'd fork over huge $$$ for a Naval DLC Package. Anyone ever play Rise of Flight? I think that's the way to go. Game is FREE, but you have to pay for all your toys, maps, items. So you can play for next to nothing, or if you are a rabbid fan, you can easily sink hundreds of dollars into it. I'd easily pay $100 for a Swamp Island with just a handful of Ships/Boats by BIS.

 

Sorry, I got excited when I saw Water, Water & Water in your Title. LOL :lol:

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I agree- even some sort of step towards making water/ diving on par with infantry stuff in regards to visible sidearms and inventory/ throwing chemlights underwater or stufflike that would make water inserts much more intresting. Also, SDV and Assault Boat speed increase would be great, they current only go 28KM or less, so it takes years to get anywhere- often a little bird insert onto the actual beach works out more effective. 

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We had a Zues session few days ago. Were a Tempest Device was lost in between some islands of Tanoa and we had to retrieve it. It became a fire fight between dive teams, and we had to defend it as they sent a chopper to air lift it out. It was actually pretty fun, the sea puts a dynamic on cover and such. 

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Yep! I see more actions in the airports then in the water, Tanoa has small swamps but not large enough for any scale combat.

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I too would like to see more small patrol craft and landing craft for getting around Tanoa.

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The Problem is all interesting Seacombat in the Open Sea happens with big Vessels with huge Crews and stuff like that is out of scope.

 

These days, battles would also happen across hundreds of miles using cruise and super-sonic anti-ship missles, with ships having no sight of each other or much warning before they explode and sink.

 

Smaller scale stuff, with litoral craft, patrol boats and landing craft would be a nice touch. Also, what about hovercraft? Several nations are using them as landing craft now, with the advantage that they can lodge themselves a little further inland where the troops can disembark with more cover. Large hover/landing craft using the new vehicle-in-vehicle system to deliver up wheeled/tracked vehicles too.

 

Small dinghies and fishing boats for the civilian side would also make for a more interesting backdrop. i.e. instead of them just appearing as wrecks or out-of-water props, allow them to be usable.

 

The sea surface is also a little too sterile. More navigation buoys, fishing net and crab/lobster pot markers and sea birds on the water surface would just add to the feeling of realism.

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All these new games are having more interesting available water assets, War Thunder, BF1, even JC3 had interesting options for Naval combat on a manageable scale. Arma 3 kinda slipped on that, while i feel they could have added Naval Assets before it was cool to do so. But i'm ok with them finishing Apex marginally on time. I still hope for Naval assets that fill the role of up armed combat in the channels. Doesn't have to be big ships, just well thought armored and armed fighting and transport boats. I've even put up a decent example list in the wishlist thread not too long ago. Would be cool if the boats were a little bigger than those, but the idea is to make it interesting, and Arma 3 specific. Ability to have a boat capable of fighting shoreline Armor and transport a few vehicles for each team, and maybe something for the actual Tanoan forces, who only got a truck reskin... Really fails to compliment the ports and docks around the island that could make interesting for various missions centered around strategic water access points.

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I think watercraft would add a fun dynamic, of course. I love being on the water and can think of some interesting applications...

 

I honestly feel like the best way to do this would be a DLC like Helos, as was said before. The amount of work that would go into this would definitely require financial compensation, and I think there would be many people willing to buy into something similar to Helos.

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I analysed AA3 frogmen, water mines, boats and subs a couple of years ago in the 'Weapon Tests' thread with a couple of dozen screenshots spread over  pages 6/7/8 beginning with post #119, pick it up here-

https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/165403-weapon-tests/page-6

 

NOTE- the posts are 2 years old so don't take them as gospel, because Bohemia might have done program tweaks and updates since then.

Here's a glimpse of some of my posts-

 

NAVAL MINES

There are currently these 3 types in the game-

The Moored mine is anchored to the seabed, it has sensors that will detonate it when a vessel gets around 10 metres, or bumps into it.
It can either sit on the surface to scare enemy ships away-
AA3-moordmin2_zpsb432ac1b.jpg~original


..or can be moored deeper like this to stay out of sight. (use the Elevation option in the editor and set a minus number)
This one is at -5 metres..
AA3-moordmin_zps34bcb69a.jpg~original




The Bottom mine sits on the seabed and explodes when it's sensors detect nearby vessels at around 10 metres. Place it with a minus number, this one is at -10..
AA3-bottmine_zps05373186.jpg~original




The PDM-7 mine sits on the seabed. Its sensors only have a range of about 5 metres so if it's placed in deeper water it won't detect vessels on the surface. It's therefore primarily a shallow water mine and shouldn't be placed deeper than around -5.
AA3-PDM7_zpsec926732.jpg~original


NOTE: remember rubber boats can't be detected by the Moored mine and the Bottom mine, but can be detected by the PDM-7.
Also don't place the Moored and the Bottom more than -10 deep or their sensors won't reach the surface.
For the same reason don't place the PDM-7 deeper than -5.
Below: this pic shows a Moored mine at -10 and is just to give an idea of what -10 metres looks like.
AA3-blast10_zps88d942f1.jpg~original

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My water list:

 

- One Carrier for all of the 3 sides (west, east and resistance)

- A battleship for all of the 3 sides

- Submarines for all 3 sides

- A hovercraft boat to transport vehciles for all 3 sides

 

Working in multiplayer + walking on deck while the ship moves.

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- One Carrier for all of the 3 sides (west, east and resistance)

- A battleship for all of the 3 sides

- Submarines for all 3 sides

- A hovercraft boat to transport vehciles for all 3 sides

 

Working in multiplayer + walking on deck while the ship moves.

 

A tad bit unrealistic of a wishlist don't you think? Not to mention how would it make sense for any of the current INDEP factions to be able to afford a carrier and a battleship?

 

All of those that you listed with the exception of hovercraft are simply out of scope for both the engine and gameplay-wise. Even then, the practicality of needing  a hovercraft is questionable given that the current heavy lift VTOLs and choppers can already do VIVT/slingload and are better because they are not limited to just shore landings (your hovercraft are not going to get very far into the jungles on Tanoa or up the mountain ranges on Altis).

 

The current implementation of A3's PhysX will also not allow for fully walkable ships, while submarines are simply ill suited for any terrain in A3 right now as the bodies of water are simply not big enough or deep enough for proper submarine warfare; custom terrains included.

 

And all of this does not even account for the lack of proper FCS that such big ships would require to use the majority of their weapons. That is unless you want tab-lock torpedoes/SSMs and magic radar that is limited to your view distance. Given how many people already cry about how "cheap" tab-lock vehicle weapons are, there would be even more complaints if BI did this.

 

There is a reason why the HMS Proteus remains as a static prop and is not functional. Anything bigger than a MkV SOC or Raptor-class speedboat is simply not suitable for A3 outside of being a "building" like the USS Khe Sanh was in A2.

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[...]

All of those that you listed with the exception of hovercraft are simply out of scope for both the engine and gameplay-wise [..]

 

Although I whole heartedly agree with you that naval combat on that scale is out of the question for a game like ARMA, I would really love to see some kind of naval asset which can be used as a base of operations. A place where I can store equipement and provide players with a logical starting/regrouping position to mount a submersible or RHIB. If it can also house a chopper and be moveable at the same time, all my expectations concerning naval-based operations would be completley satisfied.

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A tad bit unrealistic of a wishlist don't you think? Not to mention how would it make sense for any of the current INDEP factions to be able to afford a carrier and a battleship?

 

Since ArmA 3 is a sandbox i no longer care about what could be "realistic" equipment for a side, it is just for the balance. Additonally there are dozen of mods out that work with the indep side which allows nations on that side that should "story wise" capable of having a carrier.

 

All of those that you listed with the exception of hovercraft are simply out of scope for both the engine and gameplay-wise. Even then, the practicality of needing  a hovercraft is questionable given that the current heavy lift VTOLs and choppers can already do VIVT/slingload and are better because they are not limited to just shore landings (your hovercraft are not going to get very far into the jungles on Tanoa or up the mountain ranges on Altis).

 

The current implementation of A3's PhysX will also not allow for fully walkable ships, while submarines are simply ill suited for any terrain in A3 right now as the bodies of water are simply not big enough or deep enough for proper submarine warfare; custom terrains included.

 

On submarines i dont want walking, iam only intrested on waling on deck of the big ships. And i know that it dont work currently, but maybe in the future with upcomig engine updates.

 

And all of this does not even account for the lack of proper FCS that such big ships would require to use the majority of their weapons. That is unless you want tab-lock torpedoes/SSMs and magic radar that is limited to your view distance. Given how many people already cry about how "cheap" tab-lock vehicle weapons are, there would be even more complaints if BI did this.

 

There is a reason why the HMS Proteus remains as a static prop and is not functional. Anything bigger than a MkV SOC or Raptor-class speedboat is simply not suitable for A3 outside of being a "building" like the USS Khe Sanh was in A2.

 

So there is something else that could need some improvments

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No - even ships like in ArmA 2 for the marines would be great, static works, really really well.

 

I mean NATO is a developed faction and CSAT seems way in the future so there must be some new water stuff right? But AAF and whatever else won't afford a fucking destroyer lol

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No - even ships like in ArmA 2 for the marines would be great, static works, really really well.

 

I mean NATO is a developed faction and CSAT seems way in the future so there must be some new water stuff right? But AAF and whatever else won't afford a fucking destroyer lol

I know smaller island nations with Defense Forces that are better equipped than the AAF and Horizon Islands. A bit of a shame really. Destroyers, Cruisers, Frigates, Carriers, and hell, even some corvette's are out of scope for Arma. But smaller, medium patrol boats are not. Take War Thunder for Example, they're started working on ships, and everyone's hyped for the big ships... But they started with PT boats, and smaller attack craft, the kinds of things that would be perfect in Arma in terms of size, and play-ability options. We don't need Carriers and Destroyers. That would be like asking for an armored train, or hyper-sonic nuclear bombers (don't get any idea's, but think about the size), it's obviously out of scope.

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i feel like navy is a big aspect that the Arma series could bring to their player base. however i just see a lot of bugs/issues coming up with it. we can already see the issues in the current watercraft, and the mods do do a great job , however are buggy at times. i would love to see the game engine be adjusted in arma 4 to allow for water combat. having massive frigates and carriers, with jets taking off would be sweet, having air/land/water would make the arma series the true top of army simulation  

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i feel like navy is a big aspect that the Arma series could bring to their player base. however i just see a lot of bugs/issues coming up with it. we can already see the issues in the current watercraft, and the mods do do a great job , however are buggy at times. i would love to see the game engine be adjusted in arma 4 to allow for water combat. having massive frigates and carriers, with jets taking off would be sweet, having air/land/water would make the arma series the true top of army simulation  

 

ArmA 3 was that, as I explained in the OP. ArmA3 was branded as a sea-friendly-underwater-adventure experience with Altis and all that underwater caves and stuff they only did in the BETA and Alpha. Since ArmA 2 had no underwater and an extremely buggy swimming system, ArmA 3 was to fix that. Thats why im saying we should as a community maybe ask to bring more in this certain area, as ArmA 3 (honestly) is almost perfect!

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I am right with the OP on this one. I was really hoping that with Apex we'd also see more "water" assets. Not necessarily huge naval ships like carriers or LHD or littoral cruiser, we all know about the limitations of the engine regarding such huge models.

 

Personally I was looking forward to smaller civilian craft like fishing boats, crab boats, yachts (Tanoa Yacht Club!) even small freighters, pleasure craft etc. On the military / gendarmerie side I was hoping for something like a coastal patrol boat, perhaps even an offshore combat vessel. I had lowered my expectation so far that I'd even just be happy with more static assets. Oil platforms, underwater science buildings, barges, emergency vessels etc. There are so many opportunities for (small scale) things happening along the shore / coast but these have once again been completely snubbed.

 

NONE of these have appeared and TBH I'm tired of hearing things like ships are too big for the engine to handle, naval combat is too long distance for missions, maybe think smaller scale when it comes to naval operations, there is enough going on along coastal regions - I can not believe this is not possible.

 

Sure we have the the frogmen, underwater rifles, underwater mines, some rubber dinghies (Zodiaks) and speedboats, but that's it. Oh right the SDV and a static submarine. With Apex came the RHIB, a jet ski and a static, non-walkable (afaik) cargo ship. So yes I am sort of disappointed how the most innovative thing (for me) in Arma 3 has been snubbed with the first official expansion and I do not understand why they are being so coy with it. Never mind that even the smallest steerable boats like the Zodiaks are way to slow and move in km/h what they should be doing in knots per hour. I gave up on that a long time ago.

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