Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Boss-Starstreams

Seems the IA's spot distance can see behind terrain, hills.

Recommended Posts

There are too many things going on with the realism in A3 with regard to the AI's ability to know someone is there even when they have cover.  The 3den Enhanced helps control the spot distance, but I don't think the mountains, and terrain is actually blocking the radial spot awareness of the AI. Here are a few examples:

 

  • A tank comes over a hillside and wipes me out every time I hit replay, even though I'm hidden further into the woods while my 12 guys are out in the open. even if I move to new positions before the tanks gets over the hill on my side, It's as though the AI is programmed to target the player more often then the enemy, ...while my guys were out in the open.
  • A tank comes over the hill and wipes out about 10 guys in a matter of 3 seconds, even though the guys are all spaced out at distances from each other of about 30 to 50 feet, and they were commanded to take cover before hand. How in the world would a tank know where everyone is that quick? My friend is an Captain officer in the Army, He's says it's BS.  It would take the tank some time to aim at everyone. I can change this behavior with the 3den Enhanced AI settings, but why is the setting so jacked up by default.
  • I'm in prone position sneaking up on some guys in front of me who are about 100ft behind the hill I'm crawling up: about a second before I can see them through the weeds I'm already being shot at and killed by the infantry on foot. It's as though the radial awareness of the AI is NOT being blocked by terrain or even trees.

 

Last point. I realize that the "tanks" and even the infantry have heat sensor abilities, but then wouldn't the other army have heat deflector outfits to help a little? And how can they detect heat when your behind a hill? And it's not like every squad or platoon has that ability at all times. Either way, even if they knew I was there as soon as my head peaked over the hill, there is no way someone can aim and kill me every time on their first shot from 100 feet away while I'm laying down. Unless it's just luck. And the AI seems to have a LOT of luck in A3.

 

The question here is: is the spot distance blocked by terrain?  Hills, Mountains? ... Or is it NOT?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 While i tend to agree it can "feel off" I believe it is for the most part on the up and up in terms of needing to establish LOS with the infantry units. One aspect is that the way terrain appears to us is far different than how it appears to AI so areas that seemed covered with tricky foliage collages dont have the same effect on AI.

 

 As far as AI straight up cheating its been pretty disproven again and again and expect a Grump Ol Guy to show up in here shortly ;)

 

 Best is to upload mission -id like to take a look. Infantry dealing with armor and vice versa is a very hard balance -so hard even top down strategy games often get it wrong

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....One aspect is that the way terrain appears to us is far different than how it appears to AI so areas that seemed covered with tricky foliage collages don't have the same effect on AI.

 

I agree.  I'm sure there are some invisible blocking volumes in the game that don't always fit the shape of the terrain. The radial characteristics of the AI's spot distance comes to mind. But I'm thinking it has less to do with the shape, and more to do with whether or not the spot distance is able to trigger from an enemy object that is behind a hill.  I know some of this can be controlled by lowering the spot distance with the 3den Enhanced add-on. But if the AI is say 5 feet in front of you on the other side of the hill, the question becomes, does he know you're there because his spot distance is not blocked by terrain?

 

By the way, froggylov, does my font look ok to you?

I had some people here say that it's not looking right. I've been having some strange font issues on these fourms. Just here though.

I made a post on it here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 LOL I noticed the funky font when i first opened thread but now...hell im not sure my eyes are playing tricks on me!

 

 Back to your question -can they see thru hills? The answer is no way. Can they knowsAbout an enemy behind the hill -sometimes. Would doubt that a tank could knowabout an infantry but definitely the vice versa due to sound. You might want to download Greenfist's awesome LOS checking tool that can pretty much prove/disprove any discrepency.

 

 All that said, there is something strange going on. When turning on your own avatar's auto report -you'll hear your guy call out things that theres just no way you can see from time to time ie "Man 700, front" - when behind a tree surrounded on all sides... If thats the case, then AI must have similar anomalies.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, what you said about the AI calling out far distances might have something to do with the crazy high spot distance. I don't know why it's so high. It was never like that in ArmA 2. But if you crank it down too low then they don't know you're standing there. But I sometimes wonder if the scrips in the game doesn't always get executed in order, maybe if say the CPU is not fast enough, some of the executed scrips get delayed from having a lower priority over visual aspects of the game.  But as far as the IA, I don't know how sensor volumes in this game work, or even collision and block volumes as some game manufactures call these detection circumference methods. Every game engine has it's own BSP method. But you're right, there are some screwy things that sometimes take the fun out of it.

 

 

I'm curious how this LOS tool works? I'll Google that.  Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few threads from my AI compilation list should help and add to the discussion about spot distance.

 

So, AI can still see through completely obscuring grass and shoot at the player.

http://tinyurl.com/qjyjt62

 

AI spot distance
http://tinyurl.com/q48yyvf

 

Adjusting AI skill based on distance with setskill and distance to assignedtarget?
http://tinyurl.com/okxtduz

 

AI detection
http://tinyurl.com/k24v3fr

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Example of AI spotting in Tanoa

 

I think your mistaking their estimations for exact coordinates. The AI has always had a predicting element to it, were it determines a possible location by your last seen speed, direction, ect. As you can tell with this video, the AI even shoots ahead of the guy in estimation that he is running at the same speed. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the links Gunter Severloh! But these seem like they're for ArmA v1?

@silentghoust
That makes perfect sense. The only thing is, to be able to shoot ahead takes a LOT of skill. I could bump the accuracy and aim time down on the AI's crew using 3den Enhanced. But there are still things not right. for example. I had two BMP3 tanks and three BMP2 tanks I needed to take out. So I radioed in two Harrier bombers and one Harrier 84MK, I think it was, and did another radio bravo for two AH-64 anti tank choppers. (All at the same time) and they all got wiped out. These are all add-ons made by CUP, which I'm sure they've been tested on ArmA3.

 

 


 Best is to upload mission -id like to take a look. Infantry dealing with armor and vice versa is a very hard balance -so hard even top down strategy games often get it wrong

 

This is the mission froggyluv. The jets on the main island work great when you radio them in, and there are two AH-64 standing by for the second radio call. I wasn't sure which folder to grab. In MyDocuments folder under Win7, I grabbed them out of ArmA3 - Other Profiles/ Username/ Saved and missions folder.

You'll need CUP, CBA, and Apex, I have the Marksman DLC, but I don't think I used anything from that.

http://www.pyramid-of-wisdom.com/hideaway4.tanoa.rar

By the way,  a few screenshots of the attached mission

http://www.pyramid-of-wisdom.com/20161002231509_1.jpg
http://www.pyramid-of-wisdom.com/20161002231607_1.jpg

http://www.pyramid-of-wisdom.com/20161002214509_1.jpg
http://www.pyramid-of-wisdom.com/20161002164424_1.jpg
http://www.pyramid-of-wisdom.com/20161002164539_1.jpg
http://www.pyramid-of-wisdom.com/20161002164217_1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The question here is: is the spot distance blocked by terrain?  Hills, Mountains? ... Or is it NOT?

 

My experience has been that SOLID cover like hills/mountains/walls/buildings/treetrunks/boulders etc blocks the enemies line-of-sight, but SOFT cover like grass/bushes/leaves etc does not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My experience has been that SOLID cover like hills/mountains/walls/buildings/treetrunks/boulders etc blocks the enemies line-of-sight, but SOFT cover like grass/bushes/leaves etc does not.

Bushes do definitely block LOS but sometimes it doesn't match what we humans see visually; bushes have holes and semi-transparent parts which shouldn't make the AI spot enemies. But if the bush is totally opaque to the eye, it will most likely block AI's vision too.

 

Grass is completely different matter. Since it isn't an actual terrain object, the engine dynamically generates an invisible LOS blocking grass layer. Its height apparently depends on clutter model sizes, their density and transparency, and terrain type. The layer is just an approximation, so it never matches the reality 100%, i.e. individual blades of grass don't block the view. Sometimes it hides a prone unit completely, but more often while you may think you're hidden, the AI can in fact see some part of you, usually a raised head peeking out through the layer.

 

Grass on the official terrains is pretty much useless for total concealment, but for example Chernarus has lots of effective grassy areas. When in danger, hitting the dirt and rolling sideways is viable tactic there.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..Bushes do definitely block LOS but sometimes it doesn't match what we humans see visually; bushes have holes and semi-transparent parts which shouldn't make the AI spot enemies. But if the bush is totally opaque to the eye, it will most likely block AI's vision too.

 

Yes but the problem is we can't always rely on our eyeballs to tell us if a bush is opaque, I've lost count of the number of times I've crawled behind a thick bush, only for shots to start coming through it later; I suppose the AI's have got thermal sights which can pick up the tiniest gap between the leaves.

PS- I play on the King of the Hill servers against human opponents and always- but always- go into battle carrying a Titan AT or AA launcher so that I can also use it's thermal sights to spot warm squishy bodies. For example only yesterday i was being sniped at but couldn't spot him with my eyeballs, so I shouldered my AT launcher and quickly spotted  his head and shoulders as a white dot looking out of a top-floor window. I could have switched back to my rifle to engage, but I fired my missile through the window instead and it was adios muchacho..;) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Multiple times in MOUT training we have seen the AI actively track the team through an alley way through the actual buildings. We have had issues with grass where they appear to not care it exists but see straight to you and turning if off makes it obvious that they can see you. But other than that it seems to work OK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More about the AI in general and detection can be found in https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/150499-ai-discussion-dev-branch/ (primary A3 AI discussion thread evah ;))
Several detection improvements have been done prior to the Apex. Mainly detection of sounds, detection at night, in fog, under water, target recognition and target tracking distances, detection in foliage.
Few quick notes:

  • AI doesn't see through terrain or objects.
  • AI can see through semi transparent objects, esp. if they are closer to the AI than the target. It depends on the alpha. https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/checkVisibility should help you verify whether you have your foliage configured well. Vanilla vegetation has been tested and should work well.
  • Grass affects the AI vision in two ways
    - by an artificial layer created above terrain that blocks the AI vision
    - and by reducing the target's vis. signature depending on the surface the target is positioned at (so a standing target in high grass is much less detectable than the same target on a road).
    Same as with vegetation atm we can vouch only for vanilla grass.
  • Once the AI looses the line of sight to the target it may still decide to fire at the target's estimated position for next 5 seconds or so.
  • AI can hear you. Especially if you are closer to the AI than ~30m you should think about moving carefully. The AI may learn about your position from your footsteps. At the same time the footsteps don't reveal the allegiance of the target. So the AI will first check who is making those footsteps. However if target opens fire the AI will automatically expect an enemy.
  • AI in vehicles can easily be more efficient due to the alt. vision modes and sensors available via the vehicle. On the other hand the AI's vision is limited to the field of view of the vehicle optics and sensors and its hearing is usually...next to none.
    Vehicles equipped with radar (depending on its configuration) reveal more or less immediately every active vehicle in the radar's range. There are new config options being recently introduced that should help with limiting and balancing it.
  • AI prioritizes targets according to their types, roles, ranks. Squad leaders, AT soldiers and similar tend to be magnets for the enemy AI.
  • To maintain reasonable performance the AI detection updates happen in matter of seconds. If you hide the AI may not stop seeing you immediately in the next frame but only after a second.
  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I play Pve mission, an AI chopper pilot can see enemies (and vehicles) at 1 to 1.5km! AI friend spot everything that is not appeared, that I can not see. I am so sad because there is not surprise... :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I play Pve mission, an AI chopper pilot can see enemies (and vehicles) at 1 to 1.5km! AI friend spot everything that is not appeared, that I can not see. I am so sad because there is not surprise... :(

Considering the amount of IR sensors and TI imagers these choppers have, it's not really a surprise they can spot you, no matter how deep within cover you are.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AI spotting may have been improved but they can still spot enemy (player) much too easily when prone in grass.

Try to crawl prone towards an AI. They will ALWAYS spot you before you see them!  And its far enough away that sound shouldn't affect their detection.

 

Some bushes do obscure their sight but others do not even though they should.

The problem is that AI can identify you as enemy even if they only detect a small portion of you.

 

They also fix on your exact position as soon as you start firing at them.

Humans take much more time to pinpoint a distant shooter.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now the spotting distance of troops has been reduced to like 400m maximum (with a subskill for spotting of 1.0). Beyond that they are blind like they have a fog past which they can't see. Its kind of scary that this sort of tweak made it in and so few have noticed that you can walk around in the open with no consequences at this sort of range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now the spotting distance of troops has been reduced to like 400m maximum (with a subskill for spotting of 1.0). Beyond that they are blind like they have a fog past which they can't see. Its kind of scary that this sort of tweak made it in and so few have noticed that you can walk around in the open with no consequences at this sort of range.

Put some powerful scopes on their guns, set them to combat mode and they'll see you 2km away.

But the 400m is indeed true for aware state, and that is too low for detecting a running enemy in broad daylight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oukejs post should be a sticky, there's lots of myths about AI...

 

I've lost count of the number of times I've crawled behind a thick bush, only for shots to start coming through it later; I suppose the AI's have got thermal sights which can pick up the tiniest gap between the leaves.

 

If AI sees you walking behind a bush they know you're hiding behind it and shoot at it.

I'm doing the same.

 

You can also hide from them if they know you're around somewhere even if you're closer than they might think, as long as you break the line of sight.

 

When I play Pve mission, an AI chopper pilot can see enemies (and vehicles) at 1 to 1.5km! AI friend spot everything that is not appeared, that I can not see. I am so sad because there is not surprise... :(

 

Unless you're hiding behind hard cover, inside a building at best, if a hostile chopper spots you, you're toast. Especially within 1.5km.

 

 

AI spotting may have been improved but they can still spot enemy (player) much too easily when prone in grass.

Try to crawl prone towards an AI. They will ALWAYS spot you before you see them!  And its far enough away that sound shouldn't affect their detection.

 

If they don't know you're there you can basically hide within 10 meters in front of them in broad daylight.

 

Cheers

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try doing that if they're aware...

Sneaking up on an enemy that's already aware of a threat is a bad idea in the first place.

 

Cheers

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, this is getting away from the point.

 

The problem is:

 

If you are prone and crawling towards an aware prone enemy AI, they will ALWAYS spot you before you can see them because they see through the grass.

 

That's the main issue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, this is getting away from the point.

 

The problem is:

 

If you are prone and crawling towards an aware prone enemy AI, they will ALWAYS spot you before you can see them because they see through the grass.

 

That's the main issue

 

Don't you think you're being a bit vague here?

 

Against how many AI?

Where are they looking?

Are they aware of you?

Did you already engage them in combat?

Is it night or daytime, if night, do they have NVGs?

What skill is used on the AI?

What kind of grass are we talking about?

Are you running any mods/AI scripts?

 

That's the main issue, it needs a plethora of information to actually try to figure out why the AI is spotting you.

 

You also need to be aware that while crawling, your eyes are below most other parts of your body, your backpack or launcher is probably giving you away earlier than you think it would.

Therefor you can't see the enemy while he very well might be looking at your Bergen with 8 AT missiles sticking out of it and a launcher.

 

These kind of discussions are pointless without providing videos/repro missions.

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, this is getting away from the point.

 

The problem is:

 

If you are prone and crawling towards an aware prone enemy AI, they will ALWAYS spot you before you can see them because they see through the grass.

 

That's the main issue

Really??

 

http://imgur.com/a/GSseb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×