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Co-op Campaign: APEX PROTOCOL

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I really hope we don't have a case here of stubbornness... Please BIS, the feedback was very clear, please add an option to play without respawn, or be able to set the amount of respawn tickets. It will also encourage players to replay the campaign in a more challenging (and more Armalike) way.

 

I really hope that APEX coop campaign remain as it is right now.

 

I'm speaking with the voice of the all newbie/rookie players that like respawn and that dont know the core mechanics of the game, dont touch anything...!!!

 

The easy gameplay of APEX campaing "IS PERFECT" to learn the core mechanics and provide an "easy way" to add more and more players to the mil sim community. Now I see the mil sim multiplayer dinamic mission populated,,,

 

Forget the usual comments of the "Armalike way", theres no such thing in a sandbox game like Arma. Every day I read the same comments coming from the same posters but they dont act for the entire community.

 

This game needs a JIP with unknow players to revive the old fashion way to play Arma and a easy way to learn mechanics, theres a plenty of mission for the clans to fullfill his destiny with the "Armalike way", plenty of realism settings and other features, leave the APEX campaing free of this and let the player play and enjoy of the game.

 

Much of this new players may join in the future to the realism units but if you convert the APEX campaing in a new "realism hell" they never came back.

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I'm very convinced by the sandox side of the game, and by the 'play it as you want' motto. But i'm not sure that attracting people with the 'you can't lose whatever you do' way is a clever way to compete against fast paced shooters that do that much better than Arma, and will always do it better.

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I'm very convinced by the sandox side of the game, and by the 'play it as you want' motto. But i'm not sure that attracting people with the 'you can't lose whatever you do' way is a clever way to compete against fast paced shooters that do that much better than Arma, and will always do it better.

 

And how much time are you playing Arma/OFP games 1,2,3,4,5,6 years or more?

 

Arma 3 is one or the latest old-school games that belongs to another era, and remains intact on his core fundations, and if we want to remain like that we need teach to the younger generations the benefits of the strong coop gameplay.

 

You can achive that only if the mission help to coop gameplay in a "easy way".

 

The apex expansion help to learn the core of the coop gameplay in the old-school way to the new generation in way never see before in Arma 3 and this is great.

 

Instead complaint about the "pure" gameplay of Arma think about the benefits to slowly learn to achive the "realism" in another way.

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And what did you learn from Apex Protocol exactly? Does it require any form of tactics or careful approaches? Or proper teamplay? All of that is pretty much irrelevant due to low diffculty. Yes, you can be very stealthy, and very slow for example. But there is no incentive to do so other than you forcing yourself. If the purpose of Apex Protocol was to familiarise new players with the more complex game mechanics and "teach" them how to succeed at Arma 3, it contradicts itself in so many ways.

 

Bootcamp was aimed at new players. It brought tons of VR training courses to teach the core mechanics. Walking, shooting, fatigue, weapon types, vehicle controls for helicopters, weapon stabilisation, etc. - it's all in there. Then it brought a mini-campaign that taught the player basic navigation, driving, and again shooting. It was topped off with a really small section of rather easy combat, as sort of "trial by fire". I don't see how Apex Protocol does any of that. It drops the player into the first mission without a single piece of information on how to actually play the game and then spawns endless waves of enemies. Then it adds some sort of training wheels with that weird respawn mechanic, so it doesn't become too frustrating for the newbie. :huh:

 

By the way, I don't think anyone wants to have the campaign to be full on milsim. The consensus I got from this thread is that the respawn mechanic should be disabled in SP and replaced by a save system. And for MP, respawn should be optional and customisable. No one talked about removing it entirely.

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And what did you learn from Apex Protocol exactly? Does it require any form of tactics or careful approaches? Or proper teamplay? All of that is pretty much irrelevant due to low diffculty. Yes, you can be very stealthy, and very slow for example. But there is no incentive to do so other than you forcing yourself. If the purpose of Apex Protocol was to familiarise new players with the more complex game mechanics and "teach" them how to succeed at Arma 3, it contradicts itself in so many ways.

 

Bootcamp was aimed at new players. It brought tons of VR training courses to teach the core mechanics. Walking, shooting, fatigue, weapon types, vehicle controls for helicopters, weapon stabilisation, etc. - it's all in there. Then it brought a mini-campaign that taught the player basic navigation, driving, and again shooting. It was topped off with a really small section of rather easy combat, as sort of "trial by fire". I don't see how Apex Protocol does any of that. It drops the player into the first mission without a single piece of information on how to actually play the game and then spawns endless waves of enemies. Then it adds some sort of training wheels with that weird respawn mechanic, so it doesn't become too frustrating for the newbie. :huh:

 

By the way, I don't think anyone wants to have the campaign to be full on milsim. The consensus I got from this thread is that the respawn mechanic should be disabled in SP and replaced by a save system. And for MP, respawn should be optional and customisable. No one talked about removing it entirely.

 

Can you explain to me how to learn the coop gamepay in a SP bootcamp?

 

Even better how to teach someone something that dont like?

 

To me the APEX campaing is perfect to fullfill this objetives and at the same time is fun.

 

As I say before theres a lot of COOP community scenarios based on realism but theres a few that help to the new players how to play coop without help, APEX fill this gap perfectly.

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Can you explain to me how to learn the coop gamepay in a SP bootcamp?

 

Even better how to teach someone something that dont like?

 

Define "learn the CO-OP gameplay". Talking to your friends on VOIP? Practicing how to move in a formation? Communication / radio protocol?

 

I don't really understand your second question.

 

It's not necessarily about realism. It is about being authentic. And that is one point where Apex Protocol fails for me. It's not believable. And again, most people wish for more customisability. No one wants to take anything away from you. Instead, people just wish to add some options to be able to tailor the respawn mechanic at least. The quality of the misison design and its variety is an entirely different matter though.

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Define "learn the CO-OP gameplay". Talking to your friends on VOIP? Practicing how to move in a formation? Communication / radio protocol?

 

I don't really understand your second question.

 

It's not necessarily about realism. It is about being authentic. And that is one point where Apex Protocol fails for me. It's not believable. And again, most people wish for more customisability. No one wants to take anything away from you. Instead, people just wish to add some options to be able to tailor the respawn mechanic at least. The quality of the misison design and its variety is an entirely different matter though.

 

The core mechanic behind the co-op gameplay is playing a game with unknow people.

 

The formations are tactics and the voip is an gameplay aid but isnt deeply related with the core of coop gameplay.

 

Right now a lot of players of Arma 3 doesnt know the coop mechanics and they are playing alone, STEAM is filled with game petitions to play with people that only wants play a coop mission, but when they find people dont have any help in a helpful mission.

 

The realism is not related with concepts like "authentic" is a kind of gameplay and for the begginers is most a barrier than a help.

 

To me is clear the divorce between newbies and the "Armalike" ideas and now there's a complete new generation that doesnt know the benefits of coop gameplay.

 

The apex expansion right now is a wonderful idea that will be ruined if you change the effort of the devs to bring new players to the main core of Arma ( small units with helpful missions) removing the respawns to achive a realims goals. Instead asking for more realism missions leave the APEX campaing free of realism and leave the campaing fun focused.

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The core mechanic behind the co-op gameplay is playing a game with unknow people.

 

The formations are tactics and the voip is an gameplay aid but isnt deeply related with the core of coop gameplay.

Been more than 25 years playing video-games and just now I discover that the co-op core is to play with unknown people?  :blink: 

I always thought that it was about playing with mates, having comms and have a consensus about what to do, which tactics to employ, cooperating to achieve goals.

That includes asking your friends to assist you when you are in trouble, etc.

Heck I even had groups of mates with whom I played dozens of coop games (from Gears of Wars to Left for Dead , even MMORPGs... )

I guess I'm getting old... So now coop means something like Tinder but in games, aka the computer randomly assigns you an unknown guy, you play for some mins and then farewell. Ok, first time I heard but ok...

 

Instead asking for more realism missions leave the APEX campaing free of realism and leave the campaing fun focused.

So all known FPS that include co-op mode (practically none of them uses spawn points) are realist and not fun focused... Marcus Phoenix will be happy :D

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And how much time are you playing Arma/OFP games 1,2,3,4,5,6 years or more?

 

Arma 3 is one or the latest old-school games that belongs to another era, and remains intact on his core fundations, and if we want to remain like that we need teach to the younger generations the benefits of the strong coop gameplay.

 

You can achive that only if the mission help to coop gameplay in a "easy way".

 

The apex expansion help to learn the core of the coop gameplay in the old-school way to the new generation in way never see before in Arma 3 and this is great.

 

Instead complaint about the "pure" gameplay of Arma think about the benefits to slowly learn to achive the "realism" in another way.

 

 Its had a following that long due to its realism like roots. Thats why Rainbow 6 and Ghost Recon do not. What your talking about can easily be achieved by a simple server setting to Recruit. If im joining the police academy, you dont give me a toy gun with Duck Hunt to get me accustomed to  life on the streets. Silly analogy yes, but Arma is known to be a steeper learning curve than average shooter and anyone wanting to take that step shouldnt require the entire train being lowered to their level just so they can get aboard.

 

 Else, you have frustrated fanbase jump ship  while placating some kid who'll be gone in a few weeks anyone leaving only a empty hull for all

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The core mechanic behind the co-op gameplay is playing a game with unknow people.

 

The formations are tactics and the voip is an gameplay aid but isnt deeply related with the core of coop gameplay.

 

Right now a lot of players of Arma 3 doesnt know the coop mechanics and they are playing alone, STEAM is filled with game petitions to play with people that only wants play a coop mission, but when they find people dont have any help in a helpful mission.

 

The realism is not related with concepts like "authentic" is a kind of gameplay and for the begginers is most a barrier than a help.

 

To me is clear the divorce between newbies and the "Armalike" ideas and now there's a complete new generation that doesnt know the benefits of coop gameplay.

 

The apex expansion right now is a wonderful idea that will be ruined if you change the effort of the devs to bring new players to the main core of Arma ( small units with helpful missions) removing the respawns to achive a realims goals. Instead asking for more realism missions leave the APEX campaing free of realism and leave the campaing fun focused.

 

And how exactly do you learn to play with unknown people? And how is playing with unknown people violated by tailoring the respawn mechanic? I don't get your point.

 

Then what is the core of CO-OP gameplay if not - well - co-operative gameplay where one complements another? And where multiple people try to achieve goals together a single person cannot? Right now, what we have in Apex Protocol is four dudes running and gunning through Tanoa. There's no need for co-operation whatsoever because there is no challenge to overcome together. It might be fun for some - which is absolutely fine - but I fail to see how it emphasises any form of co-operation other than "oh look, there's other people here". Let's take a look at Portal's two-player CO-OP for example. Or Splinter Cell Chaos Theory's. You are simply not able to succeed in these missions without having a buddy.

 

I don't get this point again. You complain that there are no "helpful" CO-OP missions out there. But at the same time you emphasise Apex Protocol as a good example while it doesn't even contain any explicit help texts / dialogues or tutorials. (To be fair, it doesn't really need to anyway.)

 

What?

 

What new generation? I'm 25 years old for fuck's sake. I am part of the current generation. (Please support me guys, I'm not that old, am I? Am I? :o )

 

I hate to repeat myself but all I wish for is to add options so people can tailor the campaign to their preferences. A huge part of my original complaints would become obsolete if I were able to turn off the respawn in SP. That has nothing to do with realism. It has to do with terribly flawed game design that contradicts itself. And what the heck is "fun-focused"? Isn't that implicit for a game to be centered around the player's enjoyment? And does that not go together with authenticity or realism if that seems to be what a part of the community is looking for? Again, a lot can be ironed out by simply allowing us a more customisable experience. Without taking anything away from the players that already enjoy it.

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If casual-oriented gamers want their respawn the way it currently is, cool, but an option which enables turning it off (and e.g. let the dead players enter a restricted spectator mode) would be great. I'm all for failing a mission when 50% of the unit is dead.

 

However, a main issue I'm seeing is the lack of realism from a military/tactical standpoint.

After playing the first missions, I have to agree on the whole "Call of Duty" thing a bit. The amount of enemies is just absurd considering this is a 4-man fireteam. It would be understandable if the campaign would be stealth-focused, but right in the first mission it is "kill them all" and the mission design makes it impossible to avoid most enemies.

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Been more than 25 years playing video-games and just now I discover that the co-op core is to play with unknown people?  :blink: 

I always thought that it was about playing with mates, having comms and have a consensus about what to do, which tactics to employ, cooperating to achieve goals.

That includes asking your friends to assist you when you are in trouble, etc.

Heck I even had groups of mates with whom I played dozens of coop games (from Gears of Wars to Left for Dead , even MMORPGs... )

I guess I'm getting old... So now coop means something like Tinder but in games, aka the computer randomly assigns you an unknown guy, you play for some mins and then farewell. Ok, first time I heard but ok...

 

So all known FPS that include co-op mode (practically none of them uses spawn points) are realist and not fun focused... Marcus Phoenix will be happy :D

 

Do you remember the OFP times when all the people plays coop missions with unknow people? or the the Doom times playing in an old 28k modems? there's no ts or battlelog in those days...

 

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Hey guys, so basically what I would say is but echoing what other people have said. So Ill try to add my own stuff to contribute to the discussion.

Firstly im always a SP guy, the campaign is usually the first thing I complete on a game that has it unless it's not built for Sp. Arma is no different, I have downloaded loads and loads of community made missions and campaigns for Arma 2 and Arma 3. All which involve some sort of core Arma mechanics like squad commanding etc. So to see it here chucked out of the window is disapointing.

I made a thread on steam around the same time this thread popped up last week here

http://steamcommunity.com/app/107410/discussions/0/365172408528515109/

Here is one post I made which sums up how I feel

"

The claims BI have made to justify this terrible campaign for a Sp player prove they are out of touch with their fan base.

A quick look at some of the most downloaded stuff on the workshop show a lot of Sp scenarios mixed in with the usual Mp modes and maps. Not to mention looking at how many have downloaded said maps here is a 3 i quickly grabbed

Resist: 10000+ downloads

Mercs: 8000+ downloads

Deliverence: 9000+ downloads

These are 3 campaigns. I could get more which I might do later but the fact is a lot of people enjoy the sp content.

BI say that they did the campaign the way that they did was because many people didn't know there was official content for the game which isn't BI's fault cause it's all presented there if people actually click on and read it. They then claim it's also for those who are new to Arma and want to learn the game with a friend, but to do this they have to both buy the main game and the expansion which doesn't make a lick of sense considering they could teach them everything through just playing the campaign or joining Mp servers like invade and Annex to learn plus the scenarios and the boot camp update which was specifically designed to teach new players.

Instead they are moving away from what made them successful to go after the casual crowd to make more money and leave people in the mud. There was no reason Apex Protocal should not of launched with some sort of playability for a solo player that didn't include having to become Rambo to acomplish it's goals.

What made it worse was their silence on the subject untill 3 weeks ago when lots of the info dropped but much was still now known untill 6 days ago where they basically showed their new direction with the campaign which included leaving people who play their content solo in the wind.

They claim they will be going back to their roots with the next release or Dlc or something along those lines so it will be seen but the fact that two developers, one who is now the lead developer only shows that they know people are disapointed "

I don't understand why they are now deciding to move away from everything they have done in the past. Not to mention the campaign itself outside the Sp abandon ware is disapointing.

1. The campaign was way too short with one mission taking like 20 minutes (mission 3) and it was over before much really happened and was padded out in sections. Only took me just over 4 hours to finish compared to the 12 or so the east wind took on a first try.

2. The objectives were bland and basic (ie clear this area, blow this up, defend) was the crux of the missions, you said it was made to encourage replayability so where was a mission or two that offered choices on what to do? Or even an alternative ending like East Wind to encourage people to try new options.

3. The stuff added was not really explored. Like why add the local police force if they don't really have a roll outside the first mission and cutscenes which must be said were well done.

4. The story as already mentioned on other pages was very bland and non-exisent on the missions and only really filled out before mission and after missions. Also Im sure there were some continuity errors as well which didn't make sense like Miller and the stuff surrounding him.

Of course all of this is my own opinion but I can see its echoed here.

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Do you remember the OFP times when all the people plays coop missions with unknow people? or the the Doom times playing in an old 28k modems? there's no ts or battlelog in those days...

No. One thing are pub servers for PvP. But coop with random strangers? No.

I remember going to Internet cafes to play LAN with mates. In OFP there were a lot of sim-groups, I was in one, but don't remember any random system to play with unknown people.

I guess that as I always had friends to play coop games, never had the need for random strangers. And judging by my experiences with games like Squad of BF, were people can't coordinate anything...

I only enjoy coop if I play with valid mates, friends or even my wife (who is quite good with shooters).

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.. I'm sweating right now with this debate and the hot summer in Madrid...

 

Ok I try to explain to everybody:

 

First clear your mind and breath.

 

Now read I try to think in another way.

 

I'm a younger boy that only play KOTH, WASTELAND and other gametypes. I dont know nothing about coop because I dont wanna be a realistic soldier. I want only play a coop mission. Sadly the mission are very difficult to me or need a lot of pleople to play or I die at the begining and I cant play unless the mission is finish.

 

APEX coop EXPANSION saves my day. I can play, I can play with other people because the I can respawn following a route and I can select my equipement before the mission. I'm happy, this is fun.

 

One month later:

 

Mmmm what is this of the realistics mil-sim units? mmm is like coop misions of APEX but with real veterans of Arma that can help to play even better!! Oh my gosh... this is awesome...

 

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I think the problem is that it isn't possible to fulfill the desires of both sides. Especially because the two sides don't understand eachother.

I'm a milsim guy, 60+coop missions with coordinated hierarchies, maneuvers, pre-planning, the mission ends for you when you're dead (no spectator), stuff like that. I can't imagine playing with randoms, like, seriously, before someone mentioned it I didn't even think about just hopping into a random session.

 

On the other hand there are casual gamers like djotacon who never really experienced this kind of coop. For them, "coop" means just having some other guys around and maybe talk to them a bit. It's not wrong, just a different perspective.

And it seems as if a majority of players outside this forum (and now even inside) are the same.

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The title of the thread is APEX CO-OP Campaing disapointing to SP player - without the CO-OP in the title -

 

Nothing strange here.

Would you mind sharing with us what other fps games in the market include a coop campaign with the same spawn-point mechanic as Apex? Or simply a spawn-point mechanic? And yeah please include all of those that feature a drop-in/drop-out option? (feel free to include other shooter games, like Gears of Wars and such...).

Let's see what BI says about the campaign in their own store, hence the information they give before you pay:

 

Co-op Campaign & End Game Multiplayer

Take on the role of a NATO CTRG special operator in the 1-4 player "Apex Protocol" co-op campaign. Connected to the events in the original Arma 3 "The East Wind" campaign, your team is sent to Tanoa in order to prevent a humanitarian disaster, but quickly find themselves facing a far bigger threat than they bargained for. The co-op campaign consists of highly replayable missions, featuring a drop-in/drop-out multiplayer structure, and the difficulty scales up or down based on the number of players. In addition to the co-op campaign, Arma 3 Apex adds two brand new End Game multiplayer scenarios on Tanoa, as well as a new singleplayer Showcase End Game scenario to familiarize players with the mode's objectives and rules.

APEX coop EXPANSION saves my day. I can play, I can play with other people because the I can respawn following a route and I can select my equipement before the mission. I'm happy, this is fun.

There are multiple coop missions with squad-respawn that allow you to always be with your mates. And most coop missions allow you to choose gear and equipment at the beginning of the mission. So the spawn-point system has nothing to do with that.

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Ok I try to explain to everybody:

 

 

That was a much better way of stating what you meant instead of "co-op = playing with unknowns" :)

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.. I'm sweating right now with this debate and the hot summer in Madrid...

 

Ok I try to explain to everybody:

 

First clear your mind and breath.

 

Now read I try to think in another way.

 

I'm a younger boy that only play KOTH, WASTELAND and other gametypes. I dont know nothing about coop because I dont wanna be a realistic soldier. I want only play a coop mission. Sadly the mission are very difficult to me or need a lot of pleople to play or I die at the begining and I cant play unless the mission is finish.

 

APEX coop EXPANSION saves my day. I can play, I can play with other people because the I can respawn following a route and I can select my equipement before the mission. I'm happy, this is fun.

 

One month later:

 

Mmmm what is this of the realistics mil-sim units? mmm is like coop misions of APEX but with real veterans of Arma that can help to play even better!! Oh my gosh... this is awesome...

 

So, essentially you're saying you prefer a low difficulty? Alright, I don't judge you, I for example currently play XCom 2 on easy (no hate please, it's my first XCom game) because I kept losing my main character to some tough enemies. But here's the thing: XCom as much as Arma offers four or five difficulty settings. In the case of Arma, one can even customise them to an extreme extent. The problem is, Apex Protocol doesn't seem to give a shit about your difficulty settings. It plays the exact same on any of them. (I've actually tried Regular and Veteran to see if there's any difference other than not being able to see oneself on the map etc.) That is what baffles me. The whole game screams customise me, only the campaign is as static as it can get. It doesn't really blend in.

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The title of the thread is APEX CO-OP Campaing disapointing to SP player - without the CO-OP in the title -

 

Nothing strange here.

The store page and media state 1-4 players. So like it been mentioned here a gazillion times, it's not wrong to think of them doing a red harvest esc campaign like they did for Arma 2 which was also a CO-OP campaign that fully allowed Sp which is what is being debated here and over there

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Also speaking of disapointments. I find it odd how the Showcase "Firing from vehicles" is now locked behind a paywall. Could be a bug or it could be a sign of them changing which isn't too pleasing if true

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Also speaking of disapointments. I find it odd how the Showcase "Firing from vehicles" is now locked behind a paywall. Could be a bug or it could be a sign of them changing which isn't too pleasing if true

As far as I remember it's linked to the Helicopter DLC, hence it makes sense with the BI strategy of content-paid and features-free.

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Would you mind sharing with us what other fps games in the market include a coop campaign with the same spawn-point mechanic as Apex? Or simply a spawn-point mechanic? And yeah please include all of those that feature a drop-in/drop-out option? (feel free to include other shooter games, like Gears of Wars and such...).

Let's see what BI says about the campaign in their own store, hence the information they give before you pay:

 

There are multiple coop missions with squad-respawn that allow you to always be with your mates. And most coop missions allow you to choose gear and equipment at the beginning of the mission.

 

I cant say what very popular game is using unlockables auto spawn points.

 

And I cant say what very popular scenario has the same unlockable spawn points that create the same front-line you have in APEX.

 

Sorry I dont remember. :)

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As far as I remember it's linked to the Helicopter DLC, hence it makes sense with the BI strategy of content-paid and features-free.

Unfortunately your wrong. Firing from vehicles was a free mechanic added in the marksmen DLC. Alongside that dlc was a free showcase that demonstrates this feature. Up untill 2 days ago it could be played by everyone but now out of the blue its behind the marksmen dlc as either a bug or something else. Yes I know it's off topic but it added salt to the womb with the apex campaign

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