AI Driving - Feedback topic

[klamacz 447]

AIDriving debug should provide you with info:

- current path of vehicle

- current steer point as red circle on the path, during reversing violet marker on path

- debug informations about most of real time parameters, like safe speed, wanted speed etc

- 3 graphs, speed, steering and convoy - those are PID result graphs which shows how AI controls the driving process
(green line is wanted value, red is current value, blue is wanted change - you can also call them Setpoint, Input and Output respectively)

The most useful, from mission maker purpose - if you see strange AI behaviors, going out of the road - this diagnostic will provide you with knowledge why that happened, what path was created and if the problem is in the path or driving itself.
In case you find problematic situations which you want to debug and/or report here, diagnostic will provide very precise info for us on what was really happening. Making a video with diagnostic enabled, for our internal purposes is great way to diagnose your issue. If I could ask you to not spam youtube with them, that would be awesome though ;)

[.kju 3239]

Ok great - much appreciated!  ^_^

 

 

Two last points from me for now:

 

1) can we also test with 3rd party mods (that uses standard configs in regards to AI driving) (but different model, physx, mass, etc), or just BI A3 assets?

 

2) would it be possible to have the dataset (Setpoint, Input and Output/wanted value, current value and wanted change) accessible via sqf?

 

that way I think we could automate the testing by having AI drive around terrains with randomized paths and configuration,

log/visualize the data in case of the delta being too large with the position (and vehicle/convoy configuration) and finally easily build repo

mission that way

[klamacz 447]

Ok great - much appreciated!  ^_^

 

Two last points from me for now:

1) can we also test with 3rd party mods (that uses standard configs in regards to AI driving) (but different model, physx, mass, etc), or just BI A3 assets?

2) would it be possible to have the dataset (Setpoint, Input and Output/wanted value, current value and wanted change) accessible via sqf?

that way I think we could automate the testing by having AI drive around terrains with randomized paths and configuration,

log/visualize the data in case of the delta being too large with the position (and vehicle/convoy configuration) and finally easily build repo

mission that way

 

Ad 1: yes, this will work with any vehicle having AICarSteeringComponent, be it vanilla or modded. By default all entities inheriting from Car would have it. 

Ad 2: As much as I would love automatic repro missions, believe me when I say, that PID datasets wouldn't help much with it. In the end, failed test needs to be reviewed anyway, there are too many factors, which will not be represented in datasets. 

[.kju 3239]

Ok thanks again!

 

Too bad PID datasets don't help. I could imagine logging situations with AI driving backwards, or sudden sharp stops, or continued slow speed,

and maybe a few more could be used at least a basis for further analysis - combined with the screenshot sqf cmd, one could get a visual snapshot impression too.

 

Plus use something like Operation Capture And Playback (AAR system) or something more simple to visualize the path and related statistics (speed, acceleration, damage, what else?).

[R3vo 2652]

Here's a repro video with AiDriving enabled. The prowler didn't manage to get unstuck.

 

 

*The video is not listed so I am not spamming youtube with it ;)

[klamacz 447]

Here's a repro video with AiDriving enabled. The prowler didn't manage to get unstuck.

 

//https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVuRydBZIvY&feature=youtu.be

 

*The video is not listed so I am not spamming youtube with it ;)

Awesome, thanks a lot.

Yes, fix for the main issue with reversing at 0:46, with few other improvements going to be on dev soon. As you can see, there is a piece of path underneath, with two segments going in opposite directions, which is the main reason. Also, proper offsetting from central line of road is slowly incoming. 

[Varanon 892]

Interesting to see the "brain" behind the AI driving, especially when stuck. What I don't get, though, is the total lack of any anticipation of objects on the road. For example, place a barrier on the road, and they will not see it. And when reversing, instead of steering towards the closest "free" side of the obstacle, they turn the other way around, towards the obstacle. Do they even take road blocking obstacles into account ?

 

Also, the yellow line showing the planned route: Isn't it a bit excessive to pre-plan the whole route ?

[.kju 3239]

For the start I've ported ruebe's findRouteDemo to A3 for Stratis and Altis:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/184527246378139648/234226229354561539/findRouteDemos.7z
 
It determines dynamically a path from a CfgLocationTypes start to end point oce can select in a dialog.
One can also tweak the search algorithm in the dialog, yet this is not so relevant here.
 
You can also change the number of the vehicles (1 or more in a convoy), set the vehicle type, or have them randomly selected.
Also it activates the AIDriving debug by default (toggle via radio) and you can change the behavior of the AI radio.
 
So in summary you can watch AI drive from A to B.
 
 
My observations:

• WaypointCompletionRadius still does not work well/at all for vehicles - AI always drives up to the exact position.. this should really be fixed/improved as it plays very much into AI driving
• Behavior seems to play less of a role. It seems careless/safe is no longer needed to have cars/trucks stick to roads well - good. Combat behavior still makes some difference but its limited - maybe only for armed vehicles or when in combat mode now? Stealth can still cause AI to take crazy detours at times.
• AI "path waypoint" precision seems not narrow enough in sharp turns and at intersections. Also when one road segment leads to another this can cause problems at times.
• Initial to get onto a road still leads of to crazy back and forth, or very slow movement/temporarily none at all.
• Intersections are also still a problem. Instead of passing by, the AI often tries to take an AI "path waypoint" from the other road, leading to problematic or even dangerous sheering of course.
• When a vehicle gets stuck, it causes the convoy still to slow down overall hoping to have it eventually catch up (not easy to handle though).

Overall sticking to road and convoys seem to work considerably better though - its been a few years I've last tested this. The CIT still has probably several useful tickets and demo missions for that.

If useful, I might spend a few days to code an automated testing framework. OO_PATHFINDING - shortest route between two positions - looks useful in these regards.
It would still require people/someone to extract the data, and make repo missions for them (or videos).

[Vasily.B 529]

Interesting to see the "brain" behind the AI driving, especially when stuck. What I don't get, though, is the total lack of any anticipation of objects on the road. For example, place a barrier on the road, and they will not see it. And when reversing, instead of steering towards the closest "free" side of the obstacle, they turn the other way around, towards the obstacle. Do they even take road blocking obstacles into account ?

 

Also, the yellow line showing the planned route: Isn't it a bit excessive to pre-plan the whole route ?

Thats the only way to not let them stop every minute. Do you know addon VCOM_AIdriving?  Its succes was just beacuse of disabling detection of obstacles. If there was any radious around obstacle that AI was detecting, they were staring the dance forward-reverse. I personally think it can be somehow sorted by ignoring obstacles with size up to X, and avoiding larger ones, that can harm the vehicle.

[inlesco 233]

Thats the only way to not let them stop every minute. Do you know addon VCOM_AIdriving?  Its succes was just beacuse of disabling detection of obstacles. If there was any radious around obstacle that AI was detecting, they were staring the dance forward-reverse. I personally think it can be somehow sorted by ignoring obstacles with size up to X, and avoiding larger ones, that can harm the vehicle.

Always thought a param for AI driving, like, "aggresiveness", would be very useful in case you want to disable AI's avoidance of obstacles in their path for mission / performance / whatever reasons.

[xon2 102]

I know this thread is mainly about car ai at the moment, but i am not sure whats going on with the helicopter ai. When i plan a flight route with multiple waypoints for a helicopter (editor or zeus behaves the same), the helo behaves in a sort of stop and go fashion. It does not fly smoothly along the approximate waypoint path like a plane, but slows down beforehand, comes almost to a complete standstill at the waypoint and once past speeds up to the next to slow down again. Am i just remebering it wrong or is something off at the moment? This behaviour happens even when i load arma 3 without mods. Any idea whats going on?

[.kju 3239]

Why is there so little feedback on this topic - especially specific demo video or repro missions?

This topic should be important to many SP and COOP players, so what is it?

 

Not clear enough what feedback is needed and how to give it?

Not enough guidance how to provide useful input?

No demo missions available to use for testing?

[inlesco 233]

Why is there so little feedback on this topic - especially specific demo video or repro missions?

This topic should be important to many SP and COOP players, so what is it?

 

Not clear enough what feedback is needed and how to give it?

Not enough guidance how to provide useful input?

No demo missions available to use for testing?

Maybe no communication whether more AI driving improvements are planned to be implemented or not?

 

So the folks think all is set in stone for the time being and there's little point to make mature repro missions.

 

Just my 0.02.

 

Of course, clearer instructions or even an easily usable and loadable AI driving repro mission that lets you select different locations for driving tests across current terrains (etc.) would be great.

Also, that repro-framework mission should visible and easily accessible in A3 main menu, at least on dev branch :) (IMO)

[kerodan 25]

I can only speak of my stable branch experience at the moment but I do not really see the need to provide extensive feedback as I do not encounter alot of critical issues.

 

Small issues like a vehicle running into small objects or getting stuck taking a certain turn are still present in some situation but are these things to report? In my opinion they are not as I suppose that these issues are getting smoothed out over time and can not really be fixed for every difficult spot on any given map.

 

 

Maybe no communication whether more AI driving improvements are planned to be implemented or not?

 

They just implied one the last page that changes to tracked vehicle AI are coming at some point.

[R3vo 2652]

For me it's just the lack of time, I'll do further testing hopfully soon ;)

 

No demo missions available to use for testing?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4998ypyik8rzgt3/AI_vehicle_pathfinding3.Tanoa.zip?dl=0

 

That's what I use for testing. I was able to see improvments over the last few weeks in this mission.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

What have you guys done to the remote control driving?

 

1.62 and prior, used to feel like I was driving the vehicle when remote-controlling an AI vehicle.

 

Now it feels like my inputs are giving orders to the AI driving.

 

Feels horrible

 

repro:

 

put a vehicle down with zeus and use the remote control module on it

try driving around

[HeroesandvillainsOS 1504]

I'm really disappointed with the new driving AI. I'm not really sure what I was expecting TBH. Just place a truck inside the NE base on A2 Summer Sangin and ask him to follow you as you try to exit the base. They just bang bang bang over and over and over again on the same spots. It's literally inpossible for them to make their way out of the FOB.

I really wish after they hit something, the code would tell the AI not to try that path again. Or maybe they could be programmed to follow the path the player takes? As it stands now, they'll literally keep making the same bad maneuver perpetually. What a shame.

I'm also disappointed with their formations too. Even when I ask them to form a line, they follow in very wide sweeps. Why can't they move in a straight line?

Though note, I am using RHS snorkels and MRAP's. Maybe they don't get the inherited improved AI?

[danny96 79]

I'm really disappointed with the new driving AI. I'm not really sure what I was expecting TBH. Just place a truck inside the NE base on A2 Summer Sangin and ask him to follow you as you try to exit the base. They just bang bang bang over and over and over again on the same spots. It's literally inpossible for them to make their way out of the FOB.

I really wish after they hit something, the code would tell the AI not to try that path again. Or maybe they could be programmed to follow the path the player takes? As it stands now, they'll literally keep making the same bad maneuver perpetually. What a shame.

I'm also disappointed with their formations too. Even when I ask them to form a line, they follow in very wide sweeps. Why can't they move in a straight line?

Though note, I am using RHS snorkels and MRAP's. Maybe they don't get the inherited improved AI?

Well try Vanilla trucks. AI of vehicle is defined by single vehicles, not drivers.

[inlesco 233]

I'm really disappointed with the new driving AI. I'm not really sure what I was expecting TBH. Just place a truck inside the NE base on A2 Summer Sangin and ask him to follow you as you try to exit the base. They just bang bang bang over and over and over again on the same spots. It's literally inpossible for them to make their way out of the FOB.

I really wish after they hit something, the code would tell the AI not to try that path again. Or maybe they could be programmed to follow the path the player takes? As it stands now, they'll literally keep making the same bad maneuver perpetually. What a shame.

I'm also disappointed with their formations too. Even when I ask them to form a line, they follow in very wide sweeps. Why can't they move in a straight line?

Though note, I am using RHS snorkels and MRAP's. Maybe they don't get the inherited improved AI?

Yep - your problem - you're not using vanilla content that has been adapted to use new AI driving.

 

Last RHS update was released even before the AI driving enhancements were released, so this clears things up and removes doubt.

[R3vo 2652]

AI driving became worse after today's update. The vehicles are zick-zagging alot and cutting corners, the convoy seems to als move slower than usual. No repro video yet-> no time.

 

*Tested with the above posted pathfinding_3 mission.

[klamacz 447]

What have you guys done to the remote control driving?

 

1.62 and prior, used to feel like I was driving the vehicle when remote-controlling an AI vehicle.

 

Now it feels like my inputs are giving orders to the AI driving.

 

Feels horrible

 

repro:

 

put a vehicle down with zeus and use the remote control module on it

try driving around

 

Aren't you remote controlling commander at this moment? I checked it for drivers and seems to work just fine. 

 

AI driving became worse after today's update. The vehicles are zick-zagging alot and cutting corners, the convoy seems to als move slower than usual. No repro video yet-> no time.

 

*Tested with the above posted pathfinding_3 mission.

 

 

Retweaking in progress, sorry for inconvenience. Zig-zagging can be lowered by lowering the speed of vehicle (waypoint limit speed or limitSpeed). 

 

[R3vo 2652]

Aren't you remote controlling commander at this moment? I checked it for drivers and seems to work just fine. 

 

 

Retweaking in progress, sorry for inconvenience. Zig-zagging can be lowered by lowering the speed of vehicle (waypoint limit speed or limitSpeed). 

 

No need to be sorry, the work you do is amazing;)

[HeroesandvillainsOS 1504]

Aren't you remote controlling commander at this moment? I checked it for drivers and seems to work just fine. 

 

 

Retweaking in progress, sorry for inconvenience. Zig-zagging can be lowered by lowering the speed of vehicle (waypoint limit speed or limitSpeed).

How do you lower speed if you command a grouped unit inside a vehicle as driver (and then command him to follow/regroup) mid-mission?

[old_painless 182]

Yep - your problem - you're not using vanilla content that has been adapted to use new AI driving.

 

Last RHS update was released even before the AI driving enhancements were released, so this clears things up and removes doubt.

I am confused - is the AI driving enhancement on a per-vehicle basis? Is it not improvements in the logic for the AI behind the wheel, regardless of what he is currently driving? Bicycle, quadbike, Humvee, truck - same logic, just adjust for size/weight etc. which should be input for the AI routines, right ?

[Vasily.B 529]

I am confused - is the AI driving enhancement on a per-vehicle basis? Is it not improvements in the logic for the AI behind the wheel, regardless of what he is currently driving? Bicycle, quadbike, Humvee, truck - same logic, just adjust for size/weight etc. which should be input for the AI routines, right ?

I'm also thinking the same, the changes touched wheeledX, and AI routines, which apply to every vehicle, including modded. I also have impossible big problems with VTN and RHS whelled vehicles.