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Longinius

The real bravo two zero

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Anyone here read the book "The Real Bravo Two Zero"? If so, how accurate do you think it might be?

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Ive read Chris Ryans side of the story, "the one that got away" and that seems credible, pretty good read too

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Heh, funny thing: I just read it two days ago and was going to post a topic about it smile.gif

Ok anyway my views on it:

When I first started my military service I read the McNab books. Hell, everybody in the platoon had a copy; it was almost like a bible.

A couple of years later I read again, and I couldn't believe that I liked Bravo Two Zero. It is so full of pure bullshit. These men were supposed to be experienced SAS soldiers, not Rambo wannabies. I then read Chris Ryan's book and it was a tad better but still not quite believable. Also Ryan does a nasty thing: he blames the whole failure on one of his team mates that died during that operation.

Last saturday I was waiting on the train station and had nothing to do (missed my train) so I went into the bookshop and bought this book "The Real Bravo Two Zero" by Michael Asher.

It was a really great read. Suddenly many things fall into their places. I think it tells the story much closer to the truth then the other two books. For those who havn't read it: it displays a completely different picture of what really happened.

Now as for the question if it is true: Well I admit that it is a bit incredible that he managed to track down all those witnesses. There are of course two possibilities:

[*] Asher is lying

[*] He got fooled by a Iraqi propaganda ploy

For the first one I can't see the point of doing that. Besides, the story fits very well with both Ryan's and McNab's versions and can point out the inconsitencies very well.

The second alternative is unlikely since 1) it would require a big effort. 2) it would be of little gain to the Iraqi.

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Here is a brief of the story from a Guardian article:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Bravo Two Zero patrol was one of several SAS teams sent deep into Iraq on 22 January 1991 to target Scud missile launchers. But things went wrong very early on. Faulty intelligence meant the eight-man patrol was dropped in the middle of 3,000 Iraqi troops. McNab says the team marched through the night to an observation post near a key road. Asher says they walked, with 200lb loads, only a few hundred yards.

Within 48 hours McNab's men were spotted by a shepherd boy. However, where the SAS men claim there was a vicious firefight with Iraqi troops, Asher, having interviewed Bedouin tribesmen who remember the events, says the patrol was merely challenged by a small group of lightly armed locals. Asher also points out that the patrol members' accounts of the action diverge radically.

The patrol split into two groups. Two men died of exposure, and one was killed in a firefight. Four, including McNab, were captured and tortured by the Iraqis. Ryan was 'the one who got away'.

McNab had tried to get to Syria by hijacking a taxi. He describes fighting his way through a checkpoint. But Asher, who says he interviewed the policemen who stopped the car, gave a very different account. 'The policemen later knew McNab's real name, not his pseudonym. There were many, many similar details that backed up what I heard from the Iraqis,' said Asher, who speaks fluent Arabic and has twice received awards from the Royal Geographic Society in a 22-year career exploring deserts. 'I won't meet Ryan for a punch-up. That's just being childish. I will meet him for a debate.' Supporters of McNab and Ryan point out that Asher, 49, was accompanied by Iraqi minders during his inquiries and lacks combat experience.

But a further attack on McNab's credibility may come from a former comrade. The British Government has failed to stop Mike Coburn, a New Zealand-born member of the patrol, publishing his own account. It is expected to accuse McNab of exaggeration. Bravo Two Zero's battles are clearly not over yet.

<span id='postcolor'>

The article

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"Last saturday I was waiting on the train station and had nothing to do (missed my train) so I went into the bookshop and bought this book "The Real Bravo Two Zero" by Michael Asher."

I bought it on monday, Gothenburg trainstation, since I had actually missed my train. : )

I really liked it a lot, mainly because just like Denoir I always thought that "Bravo Two Zero" and "The one that got away" were a tad out there. Reading this book really gave some perspective and interesting explenations to many issues in the book.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ Oct. 30 2002,12:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Isn`t there a movie with Sean Bean that was made after these incidents?  confused.gif<span id='postcolor'>

It was very poor.

It was shown on Sat-1 or Pro-7 this summer at like 3am.

I watched it tounge.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Oct. 30 2002,14:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ Oct. 30 2002,12:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Isn`t there a movie with Sean Bean that was made after these incidents?  confused.gif<span id='postcolor'>

It was very poor.

It was shown on Sat-1 or Pro-7 this summer at like 3am.

I watched it tounge.gif<span id='postcolor'>

never expect movies shown at this time to be good. biggrin.gif

especially on these TV channels wink.gif

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I haven`t seen that movie... but sometimes even these channels show some good movies, e.g. action movies from HK (John Woo, Tsui Hark and so on) . biggrin.gif

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I dont think its fair for any 'arm-chair rambos' out there to to knock Mcnab and the rest of Bravo Two Zero. Alot of your opinions are based on other peoples thoughts who may have a chip on their shoulder anyway.

The truth is, we will never really know what happened and what did not, thats the way things are. No SAS soldier can or will tell the whole truth about his service.There is always going to be differences in opinion between a unit leader and the men under his command on how well the mission in hand is going. Squaddies always bitch even in the SAS, its normal, its human.

The 'Eye of The Storm' by Peter Ratcliffe DCM is a good read, and im more inclined to believe what is in his book than any other.

Sensationalism sells, and it sold alot of books for these guys, i wouldnt begrudge them that, after all they were there, we were not.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Oct. 30 2002,18:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont think its fair for  any 'arm-chair rambos' out there to  to knock Mcnab and the rest of  Bravo Two Zero. Alot of your opinions are based on other peoples thoughts who may have a chip on their shoulder anyway.<span id='postcolor'>

That's why Longinius asked "how accurate do you think it might be?"

It is ofcourse possible that Asher has his own agenda but the stories are all so fundamentally different and inconsistent in the case of McNab and Ryan that you can easily see that there is something wrong.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The truth is, we will never really know what happened and what did not, thats the way things are.<span id='postcolor'>

Eh? Why? It happend the people who were involved are still alive. That some people don't tell the truth does not make it impossible to assert what happened.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No SAS soldier can or will tell the whole truth about his service.<span id='postcolor'>

Not whole truth about the service but the story of one operation that has been declassifed, yes and that is what they have done.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The 'Eye of The Storm' by Peter Ratcliffe DCM is a good read, and im more inclined to believe what is in his book than any other. <span id='postcolor'>

I agree on that of the books on the subject Rtcliffe's is one of the more believable. In that book he refers to Ryan's and McNab's books as 'cheap war fiction'.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sensationalism sells, and it sold alot of books for these guys, i wouldnt begrudge them that, after all they were there, we were not.<span id='postcolor'>

So you don't believe in deductive reasining. Many things that McNab describes are rediculous out of a military perspective. Not only that but he contradicts himself many times in the book.

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"I dont think its fair for any 'arm-chair rambos' out there to to knock Mcnab and the rest of Bravo Two Zero."

Even an arm-chair Rambo could see the flaws in the books. Certain things are described that just can't be done. And others are described that any elite force soldier just WOULDN'T do.

"The truth is, we will never really know what happened and what did not, thats the way things are."

No of course not, but that does not mean we should accept McNabs version as the truth, when it clearly isn't.

"No SAS soldier can or will tell the whole truth about his service.There is always going to be differences in opinion between a unit leader and the men under his command on how well the mission in hand is going. Squaddies always bitch even in the SAS, its normal, its human."

Yes, it is. But flat out lieing isn't normal. Neither is badmouthing a dead comrade in arms to the point where his family suffers from it. The fact is that Bravo Two Zero is an entertaining book, but it isnt an accurate reflection of what happened. But people accepted it as such none the less.

"Sensationalism sells, and it sold alot of books for these guys, i wouldnt begrudge them that, after all they were there, we were not."

I begrudge anyone who gets rich and famous at the price of a dead friends good name. I also happen to think that it is wrong to tell a story as the truth, when it clearly is not.

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didn't read the books and don't want to sound smart, but that asher-version, from what I can gather here, seems probable. especially if he's not a pro-soldier.

for an oda to carry a 200lb load on an extended recon, or terminal guidance, mission is not much, considering the inhospitable terrain they operated in. most of the load was water. you don't want to carry that load in unknown terrain over an extended period like all night.

and oda's are designed, or at least retain the ability, to split evenly to duplicate their capabilities.

and so on. wink.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FallenPaladin @ Oct. 30 2002,11:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Isn`t there a movie with Sean Bean that was made after these incidents?  confused.gif<span id='postcolor'>

My brothers got the video and its a good movie to watch.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Oct. 30 2002,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">didn't read the books and don't want to sound smart, but that asher-version, from what I can gather here, seems probable. especially if he's not a pro-soldier.<span id='postcolor'>

He is a former SAS soldier too smile.gif

Mark Coburn who was on the B-2-0 patrol supports his version.

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I did a thread on this about 4 months ago I know Asher from when he served in the Paras I would trust his word.

But there has been heaps of B.S going around about bravo 2.0

You can`t take away what "Ryan did but I am afraid my respect went when in his version he started bagging dead people.

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Im not suggesting anyone take Mcnabs book as the truth nor any other book written by members of B20. For sure there are many inconsistencies in all the books. But lets take them for what they are....books , not official reports...If they were official, then yes we could probably point a finger at them and criticise.

Mc nabb pissed alot of people off with that book he wrote, i wont argue, but im sure he had his reasons which was probably to make lots of money, so what? Embelish an already amazing story to an even more amazing one to sell a few more books? He is not the first and for sure he wont be the last....

The guy went through capture and torture and members of his team were killed. No matter what he said in a book for the paying public to read, he still deserves some respect for what they went through. But yes it is shitty he bad mouthed a dead comrade, if thats the case of what he has been accused of by his fellow B20 comrades.

I bought the book and read it, but i took it with a pinch of salt like i do with anything else i read or see, dont you?

At the 'Official' debrief in front of most of 22 SAS members most of the 'fiction' he said in the book was never mentioned or recorded as matter of fact.....and undoubtedly that version of events is more credible than some books that you guys are basing your opinions on men that got captured, tortured and killed....

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"This is the true story of the most highly decorated British patrol since the Boer war: an eight man SAS team inserted behind Iraqi lines during the Gulf War in January 1991."

When lines like that are used to sell a book, don't you think you should stick to the actual true story?

Or is it OK to write fictional stories based on real events and market it as the truth? I don't think so personally.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ Oct. 31 2002,07:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The guy went through capture and torture and members of his team were killed. No matter what he said in a book for the paying public to read, he still deserves some respect for what they went through. But yes it is shitty he bad mouthed a dead comrade, if thats the case of what he has been accused of by his fellow B20 comrades.

I bought the book and read it, but i took it with a pinch of salt like i do with anything else i read or see, dont you?<span id='postcolor'>

Couldn't agree more with what you said in your post, except I think it was Chris Ryan who slagged off one of his team who died not Andy? I just read The One That Got Away and I'm about halfway through B20.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Oct. 31 2002,14:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Couldn't agree more with what you said in your post, except I think it was Chris Ryan who slagged off one of his team who died not Andy? I just read The One That Got Away and I'm about halfway through B20.<span id='postcolor'>

The overall tone of McNab's book is one that he was the only competent one, and was the heroic leader who managed to keep things together as long as he could. He didnt exactly come right out and slag anyone off, but the implication was there.

I havent managed to pick up a copy of Ryan's book, but I have read Asher's , and it seems to be the most objective.

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Whereas i agree that Ryan and McNab have probably given themselves a little extra glory, I still think that they did very well to get out of what they did.

Ryan: Constantly going on and on, blaming his comrade for everything completely threw me. Why did he have to mention it so much in his book? I imagine the mans family reading the book and how much hurt that would have caused them.

McNab: I generally enjoyed his book, but I enjoyed The one that got away more.

Peter Ratcliffe: I saw this man interviewed in a Panorama special on the BBC, and from what I saw he bears close relation to the first 3 letters of his surname. I wouldnt really trsut anything he said whatsoever.

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"Whereas i agree that Ryan and McNab have probably given themselves a little extra glory, I still think that they did very well to get out of what they did."

A little extra? Hehe, define a little. Gross exadurations in enemy casualties, distances travelled and flat out lies as to what happened.

Anyway, its interesting to note that their books clearly has been accepted as the truth. Must be because people really need heroes I guess.

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I dont think any lies were told about the distance travelled. If you turn up on the Syrian border, then thats where you are. Whether you walked a straight line or zig zagged, its a hell of a distance to walk when you have barely any food/water and you are in a hostile country.

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I think McNab claimed they were dropped with chopper 20 k's from their OP and then they hoofed it in with 95+ kg worth of kit / person. Local witnesses who heard the chopper and saw where it had landed reported that it was 2 k's from the OP. It is quite a difference between 20 k's and 2 k's...

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