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daveallen10

Disappointed with lack of Interactability on Tanoa

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I don't have experience with Enfusion Engine, does anyone know what are pros and cons compared to VR4 and maybe to some other open world powered engines?

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We survived Arma 1 and most of Arma 2 without enterable buildings and I'm sure life will go on after Tonao, if not in a sea of pouting.

In fact "Armed Assault" had more accessible houses than ArmA II did. It were not much and most were the same but there were more of them at towns.

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I think in a way what you're concerned about is somewhat superficial and doesn't really detract from your imagination in-game. It also confirms that what we've actually got is a pretty good expansion.

It's a bit like a list from 1 to 10. When you get your number 1 feature, number 2 becomes number 1 and the level of "disappointment" remains.

Which is fine because that's how games evolve and progress.

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I don't have experience with Enfusion Engine, does anyone know what are pros and cons compared to VR4 and maybe to some other open world powered engines?

Con of every other engine:

-AI

They could now build some kind of Arma AI system in Enfusion but that's a lot of work. Enfusion rendering works now dam well because the Arma AI was removed which was pretty tied in the rendering/simulation and the server-client architecture is different.

They've naturally deep knowledge on their own engine so Enfusion is the only real option for RV. Future will show how things evolve.

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Maybe the environment has changed for the past few years? I mean just look at what SC is doing with Cry Engine.

I imagine that some 'customizing Unity for our own purposes within the limits of the license(s)' is going on for Bohemia's Unity-based games, but that 'within the limits of the license(s)' is key... versus being able to do whatever they want with Real Virtuality 4 and Enfusion.

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Not intending to sound too douchey but this is very disappointing and I am not satisfied with a "sorry we had no resources" explanation.

 

ArmA2 OA (before DayZ) sold a fraction of copies compared to the sales what we see now and it had working interiors in most of the buildings (with furniture too...).

 

Also, if truly "no resources" are available (which is kind of hard to believe), why not sideline the project - officially - as a community effort? Ask who is interested, give access to the MLODs and let the community to a little magic.

 

When I still had time to mod, I'd have been interesting in doing that for ArmA3. But I had had faith in BIS that they'd put in furniture on their own. I always thought it was a temporary thing...

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Not intending to sound too douchey but this is very disappointing and I am not satisfied with a "sorry we had no resources" explanation.

 

ArmA2 OA (before DayZ) sold a fraction of copies compared to the sales what we see now and it had working interiors in most of the buildings (with furniture too...).

 

Also, if truly "no resources" are available (which is kind of hard to believe), why not sideline the project - officially - as a community effort? Ask who is interested, give access to the MLODs and let the community to a little magic.

 

When I still had time to mod, I'd have been interesting in doing that for ArmA3. But I had had faith in BIS that they'd put in furniture on their own. I always thought it was a temporary thing...

 

They did exactly that. They were asking on the forums for modders to model buildings for them, and PuFu was one of them as far as I know.

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They did exactly that. They were asking on the forums for modders to model buildings for them, and PuFu was one of them as far as I know.

And even with community artists pitching in it still wasn't enough, going by the initial admission almost a year ago.

I don't have experience with Enfusion Engine, does anyone know what are pros and cons compared to VR4 and maybe to some other open world powered engines?

You can experience an iteration of Enfusion via DayZ standalone's experimental branch, but that has its own complications/special use cases (i.e. no plans to ever implement soldier/bandit AI over in DayZ).

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I imagine that some 'customizing Unity for our own purposes within the limits of the license(s)' is going on for Bohemia's Unity-based games, but that 'within the limits of the license(s)' is key... versus being able to do whatever they want with Real Virtuality 4 and Enfusion.

 

Possibly, but I think Cry Engine source code was made public and something like "pay what you want".

 

SC made practically it's own engine from Cry Engine, with different physics grids, procedural planets, incredible damage system, etc. I'm guessing there is no pressure on them to jump forward with big improvements since there is no competition on the market. :)

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Not intending to sound too douchey but this is very disappointing and I am not satisfied with a "sorry we had no resources" explanation.

 

ArmA2 OA (before DayZ) sold a fraction of copies compared to the sales what we see now and it had working interiors in most of the buildings (with furniture too...).

 

Also, if truly "no resources" are available (which is kind of hard to believe), why not sideline the project - officially - as a community effort? Ask who is interested, give access to the MLODs and let the community to a little magic.

 

When I still had time to mod, I'd have been interesting in doing that for ArmA3. But I had had faith in BIS that they'd put in furniture on their own. I always thought it was a temporary thing...

 

How many games that you see in your entire life or the entire game industry with a 400km2 map full of interactive buldings full of tables, lamps, art, doors, windows, chairs, closet, wardrobes - with clothes obviously - ... ???

 

With 100 km2?

 

With 10 km2?

 

How many??... none... ahhh hummm... interesting...

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Tanoa is a very very very OK terrain. I would restrain myself from making such sweeping statements like "the best BIS map ever". The general atmosphere is fantastic, panoramas and whatnot... The detail... depends. E.g. the electricity sign on the electricity boxes becomes so blurred at close distance (1-2 m) that it becomes hardly recognizable. Advertisement signs, shop signs and other billboards, when you look at them, they are kinda "loading" a few seconds, initially they are blurred, and sometimes remain so if the distance is greater than 20-30 m. It seems somebody has even addressed the issue somewhere over the forum. With regard to enterable buildings, I was not surprised at all. It was announced waaaay back then. Initially I was disappointed after that SITREP, but it seems they've concentrated their effort on the "feel" of the map - atmosphere, style, outlook of the buildings etc. They delivered on that, thooough the map is maybe too "civilian-esque" (BIS had Life-mod in mind while elaborating Tanoa?).

I was also thinking what if the creators of Lingor or N'Ziwasogo would take some of the buildings and flora from Tanoa and implement these in their maps? That would be great.

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How many games that you see in your entire life or the entire game industry with a 400km2 map full of interactive buldings full of tables, lamps, art, doors, windows, chairs, closet, wardrobes - with clothes obviously - ... ???

 

With 100 km2?

 

With 10 km2?

 

How many??... none... ahhh hummm... interesting...

 

he just said which one. arma 2 operation arrowhead. just saying :P

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 You know I remember a dev or 2 here mocking Operation Flashpoint Dragon Rising for there completely empty bare boned houses when it came out :rolleyes:

 

 And yet that game did have specific AI behaviour for entering houses in a clearing manner, and using windows -sure not much else, but BI hasnt even entered the ring on this one.

 

 That said, Tanoa is fantastic and having only fought around one jungle entrenched village, the outdoor CQB there is fantastic with Ai using much of the landscape for cover -top notch with great immersion.

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Hello there

 

Here's my 2 pennies as everyone else is having a say :)

 

Personally, I would have preferred empty but enterable buildings along the lines of Altis as they can be  populated by hand as needed and although a little sparse do give great cover.

 

I didnt find the "ghost town" design choice gamebreaking or immersion breaking, in fact I just dont notice it.

 

I can understand the rationale behind the dev choice, but in an ideal world I'd have liked to be able to go indoors regardless of detail in polys or textures.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

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How many games that you see in your entire life or the entire game industry with a 400km2 map full of interactive buldings full of tables, lamps, art, doors, windows, chairs, closet, wardrobes - with clothes obviously - ... ???

 

With 100 km2?

 

With 10 km2?

 

How many??... none... ahhh hummm... interesting...

Dying Light comes to mind.

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Dying Light comes to mind.

Still only <30% of the buildings are enterable there though and even some of those are just one or two rooms that are accessible.

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I think if anyone were to say that closing the buildings helped make the map seem less empty, that would be a poor excuse I think.

 

There are some obvious things that can be done to make a place seem more natural:

1) Keep some doors open in a village, so that the doors aren't all closed.

2) Randomize things spawning in the village.

3) Add the appearance of destructibility on the map, so that some buildings already appear collapsed (random), and other times they aren't.

 

One thing I learned from playing Battlefield 3, is the notion of what I like to call 'verticality', places a player can go, that have the player move above or below ground level in some fashion. So, making "verticality" type of buildings closed would imo be a bad idea I think.

 

Having said all that, I have not looked at the Tanoa map myself. :)

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Well, have you? ;)

 

This daddy is either an actor in some dumb Hollywood movie about Iraq War or a moron of unbelievable proportions because the second he takes that AK he instantly transforms from civilian guy to a combatant. Trying to counter even a team of trained soldiers on active duty in a combat zone (who normally would ignore him because he is not a real threat) is practically a death wish both for him and his family as they will kill all of them (not because they're bloodthirsty psychopaths but simply to defend their own lives) without taking a second thought just because he had that AK. The last thing a civilian want in a combat zone is to became a threat to the soldiers.

 

Last time I checked even the completely illiterate people weren't that dumb to live in a combat area. People don't live in a combat zone, they flee, usually to Germany. Moreover, pretty much any footage of urban combat from Chechnya to modern Syria or Ukraine shows an extensive use of civilian buildings most of which are damaged by artillery/tank fire.

 

It is the combination of streets and buildings which can be used as a cover/firing positions that makes urban combat uniquely intense and unforgiving, not the fact that a certain firefight is taking place at something marked as city on a tourist map so IMO mitrail has a point.

Some do flee (mostly the shite bags of fighting age), others (women, sick and elderly) do not, Fallujah, Ramadi, Kobane, Allepo, all have many residents. Some are prevented from fleeing by the occupiers ;) 

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Still only <30% of the buildings are enterable there though and even some of those are just one or two rooms that are accessible.

Yeah but they're fully furnished and highly detailed, which seemed to be the main point of the rhetorical question I answered. Dying Light actually does a pretty good job of conveying the whole abandoned vibe, you don't spend time thinking up scenarios in which zombies ate all the furniture :)  

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Yeah but they're fully furnished and highly detailed, which seemed to be the main point of the rhetorical question I answered. Dying Light actually does a pretty good job of conveying the whole abandoned vibe, you don't spend time thinking up scenarios in which zombies ate all the furniture :)

 

The thing though about stuff like Dying Light (and a lot of other first person games like that) are very specialized around being on the ground and within contained areas. They load parts of the map as you're walking around, so you'd never be able to say, jump into a plane and fly around, or fire a mortar shell and have it explode and hit enemies on the other side of the map.

 

It's more like a bunch of open-layout levels that make up the whole map, which, while pretty big, is no where near the scale of something like Altis or Tanoa. Don't get me wrong it's an impressive and very polished game, just not really comparable to something with one large landmass as a map. Not to mention having more than a couple people in the world at once, interacting with each other.

 

 

 

Regarding Tanoa, I would also have preferred to see more buildings with interiors, even if they aren't furnished. I think it opens up the gameplay options a bit more.

 

The big skyscrapers and office buildings are tricky, but there's a mod right now floating around that has a trigger at the doors that take you to the roof of them when you get close. I think that would have been the best approach, something like that built in, with a short timer and a black screen while you're 'climbing the stairs' as it were. 

 

I'm ok though with the interiors they do have, it makes sense to me to just have a couple main rooms enter-able in some of the larger buildings. Like someone else said though, they just need to be communicated better, with clear indications of which are 'false' doors and windows.

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The big skyscrapers and office buildings are tricky, but there's a mod right now floating around that has a trigger at the doors that take you to the roof of them when you get close. I think that would have been the best approach, something like that built in, with a short timer and a black screen while you're 'climbing the stairs' as it were.

For those of us who have been around long enough to remember when Nogova was released as part of the 'Operation Flashpoint' expansion titled 'Resistance', another alternative would be similar to how they approached a few taller buildings there. A few smaller 4 or 5 story apartment blocks had a small lobby and then a stairwell leading to the top floor (which was fully explorable) and then a ladder leading up to the roof. Even taller 10 or 12 story buildings had a small lobby and a (disabled) elevator with a hatch that you could access via a small maintenance hatch, and then a much longer ladder leading up the entire shaft to the roof.

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Yeah but they're fully furnished and highly detailed, which seemed to be the main point of the rhetorical question I answered. Dying Light actually does a pretty good job of conveying the whole abandoned vibe, you don't spend time thinking up scenarios in which zombies ate all the furniture :)

 

Dying ligth is a joke compares with ballistic supported by Arma 3 and the main poit of the debate is a fully enterable city with all distinct decorations. Even a engine like frostbite can`t do a render of a entire city without generate a horrendous fps slideshow.

 

Right now you can try create a tiny city with no more than 1km2 with full decorations if you put a skycraper with 20-30 floors plenty of fornitures and immediatly you have a fps nigthmare in the same that the player point the buillding.

 

Kavala is generates a fps drops playing inside near some building but is a miracle that only 2 gigas of ram to do things that other engines only achives using 500m - 1km2 at max length.

 

Right now the frostbyte engineers are pullin his hair thinking how Arma 3 do something like a map like Altis using 1/4 of ram and half of cpu power, but sadly in this community is a sin creating some non-enterable buildings albeit has in the same map a huge dense jungle forest in a 100km2 island.

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when I first saw Altis and saw that building have no furniture I thought that's disgusting why devs didn't create beds and tables at least? Or something? Well then I tried original Chernarus and noticed that pretty much all buildings are closed completely. After a while I got used to Altis empty interiors, furniture would get in a way actually especially with the Arma 3 engine where your character gets stuck easily in stairs even or doors. Or walls. So I hope that Tanoa will have at least 30 percent of enterable buildings. Otherwise it's just pretty empty map. I like the nature of it, but being able to hide inside is what makes it realistic and actually quite moddable map/game. Even Kavala hospital, while partially enterable doesn't seem empty completely and it is a good thing. They should do more buildings in Tanoa like with Kavala hospital, or those office buildings in Altis. Partially enterable to hide from danger.

 

Of course it is all to save FPS, but Altis is way bigger map and runs just fine. Well it doesn't have as many trees as Tanoa. At least Altis is not as dense in trees if you know what I mean, so maybe that's the reason.

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when I first saw Altis and saw that building have no furniture I thought that's disgusting why devs didn't create beds and tables at least? Or something? Well then I tried original Chernarus and noticed that pretty much all buildings are closed completely. After a while I got used to Altis empty interiors, furniture would get in a way actually especially with the Arma 3 engine where your character gets stuck easily in stairs even or doors. Or walls. So I hope that Tanoa will have at least 30 percent of enterable buildings. Otherwise it's just pretty empty map. I like the nature of it, but being able to hide inside is what makes it realistic and actually quite moddable map/game. Even Kavala hospital, while partially enterable doesn't seem empty completely and it is a good thing. They should do more buildings in Tanoa like with Kavala hospital, or those office buildings in Altis. Partially enterable to hide from danger.

 

Of course it is all to save FPS, but Altis is way bigger map and runs just fine. Well it doesn't have as many trees as Tanoa. At least Altis is not as dense in trees if you know what I mean, so maybe that's the reason.

 

Skycrapers, dense jungle, volcano, port cranes, gorgeus port, enterable buildings, beachs, 100km2 and the comment is .... "just pretty empty map"

 

Is a total mystery to me why some people are happy playing in a pool and think a map like Tanoa is empty because dont have enterable buildings (with a cat poster).

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I also felt a bit disappointed to encounter simple huts/houses that were not enterable on Tanoa. At first I thought it was a bug, or I was not looking correctly at the door. I do understand everything is a trade-off in resources and priorities, and I love the rest of the atmosphere of Tanoa. I'm really glad there is an official jungle environment for Arma 3 including all the new extra stuff in Apex. 

 

But hopefully we will have more buildings available, especially the little ones, open for access somewhere down the line.

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