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What gets me about the LOD swapping (especially the quadbike example) is that the next LOD down isn't even the right colour/shade!  How can this be ?

Dark skinned civilians have pale skinned LODs, can be be a bit disconcerting at times. 

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So that would support the theory that not all LODs are finished, only the highest resolution one. Leading to abrupt changes in visual appearance once the LOD switching algorithm determines that a change to lower LOD level is required

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Dark skinned civilians have pale skinned LODs, can be be a bit disconcerting at times. 

Now that is a serious one, not only from a visual point of view. Also, lower LOD levels should preserve the sexual identity of the unit. Last one: violence is bad. Please remove weapons from ArmA ;).

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Dark skinned civilians have pale skinned LODs, can be be a bit disconcerting at times. 

I can't understand HOW the colour of the next LOD down can be wrong if people have eyes ! ... how can the artists get this SO wrong?  There have been loads of examples put up for checking .. but still nothing on this from BIS.  Please 'have a strong word with' your artists!

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I can't understand HOW the colour of the next LOD down can be wrong if people have eyes !

Yeah, because you never overlooked something. ever, in your life.

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I can't understand HOW the colour of the next LOD down can be wrong if people have eyes ! ... how can the artists get this SO wrong?  There have been loads of examples put up for checking .. but still nothing on this from BIS.  Please 'have a strong word with' your artists!

you do realize that mip-mapping is auto-generated, and not manually done, don't you?

you do realize that lower lods have the same textures and rvmats as the higher lods (maybe minus the last one who only has dissuse texture applied but no rvmat), don't you?

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i think though that the LODs of trees for example differ a lot more than other objects like buildings. so i think considering the complex foliage shading in close range being replaced by a flat poly plane eventually (far away) there could be some colouring problems happening.

 

but i think it's definately not easy to do for foliage especially. at least the more complex shading methods get because something with a lot of poly planes with a lot of different angle will almsot definately look different than something way more flat and one dimensional.

 

but that's jsut from foggy memory of looking at how arma 2/3 trees are done. so semi talking out my anus here.

 

personally i find harsh vegetation LOD switching most disturbing. not even sure why. maybe because of spotting enemies and general motion.

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you do realize that mip-mapping is auto-generated, and not manually done, don't you?

you do realize that lower lods have the same textures and rvmats as the higher lods (maybe minus the last one who only has dissuse texture applied but no rvmat), don't you?

Stop saying bs dude.

Refrain yourself from posting when you dont know what you are saying.

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Stop saying bs dude.

Refrain yourself from posting when you dont know what you are saying.

You are making a fool out of yourself. Look at the modelfile stats and see that he is right <_<

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You and him are clueless, a game engine (and this one in particular) is not making some freakin models based on tools that we got.

The world do not end on RHS.

But whatever, is due to guys like you both that we are here, stuck on limbo.

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Stop saying bs dude.

Refrain yourself from posting when you dont know what you are saying.

 

You and him are clueless, a game engine (and this one in particular) is not making some freakin models based on tools that we got.
The world do not end on RHS.
But whatever, is due to guys like you both that we are here, stuck on limbo.

 

because, unlike me, you actually worked on this game...right...

....with "the tools that we got" > really?

surely i'm the clueless one...especially when you can actually check what i wrote above...

 

are you actually trying to make a fool out of yourself with every simple post that you make?

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you do realize that mip-mapping is auto-generated, and not manually done, don't you?

you do realize that lower lods have the same textures and rvmats as the higher lods (maybe minus the last one who only has dissuse texture applied but no rvmat), don't you?

you do realise that your tone makes you look like an arse, don't you?

you do realise that this is a massive problem and needs to be fixed, don't you? 

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You and him are clueless, a game engine (and this one in particular) is not making some freakin models based on tools that we got.

[..] But whatever, is due to guys like you both that we are here, stuck on limbo.

Yep, 2 modellers, who work every week on models and textures for arma and with the tools, are clueless :)

 

you do realise that your tone makes you look like an arse, don't you?

Your post that triggered his response wasn't much more polite either. So don't be surprised when the echo isn't to your taste.

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I would say @kremator was right. The reply does sound a little condescending, especially when coming from modders and maybe not pro's. Of course that may not be the case and these modellers may be professionals at the job. I think that’s unlikely though, as pro’s would not be that condescending and would take the time to explain. Well certainly in my experience from my own background (not in gaming I would add). Giving people time and explaining what or how a process works, takes little effort and gets better respect.

 

@bratwurste has a point. The game is stagnating because we have so many modders working within the BI company now. New fresh professional people would probably move the game on and conquer some of the problems that the series has had for so long, well ever really. But perhaps pro’s wouldn’t want to work with the engine now, who knows.

 

I would add, I appreciate many of the mod makers in the series, those that build mods and that are respectful to those that play using those mod/addons. Many take time to explain what they do and are the first to say their work is ‘not’ professional, but instead a much loved hobby.

They give the game more legs and have kept it going all these years (Bi fully understand that ;) )

 

However, mod makers tend not to be professionals at the work, some are, I know. But on the whole it’s an enthusiasts hobby based thing. Many move into the industry we know, if that is a good thing or not is for each individual to judge. My own view is it can be good and bad.

 

Regards topic, I have no idea how the process (LOD) works and seeing as no-one seems to want to step up and explain, in a respectful way, how it works in the series with this engine and how it may be done better, then none of us are going to be any the wiser.

:huh:

 

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The last lods trees are managed with atlas textures, which include a lot of different trees on a same map, but it serves primarily a gain of resources, and in reality, with the distance, the details fade and blend into each other, while giving a "washed-out" aspect related to the atmosphere.

 

The leafy masses of two or three lods have their shadows generated by polyhedra groups to simulate the shade under deciduous different ensembles joined to each other to give the characteristic shape to represent a tree.

 

When we pass the lower lods, which are built mainly around plans intersecting few, especially the texture atlas, the effect of volumetric shadow is not the same, and indeed because of the limited number of pixels assigned to each tree species with this atlas texture, this generates a very opaque plane with which must match the previous lods: in other words, the large-format texture must be a solid color, with a fairly narrow leaves apart without much color variation in order to correspond to the last lod (and vice versa).

 

It shows well on ATLIS with the impression that the trees seem made of one solid color.

 

The purely artistic options with the tablet, are quite limited and improvements can only come through the addition of other calculation methods.

 

Personally I would have liked to see more variations related to the ongoing decomposition that is a rainforest, but I understand, in relation to what I wrote above that the technical requirements limit the imagination and the problems of lod away quickly resurface.

 

But one thing can be done at the eden editor, to give a tropical feel clammy and suffocating heat, setting the parameter related to the fog: what can also alleviate some of the transitions between the problems lods in the distance.

 

Or make a specific map of decaying elements to be added randomly on the trees, knowing that simulation that moves the trees in the wind may disconnect these elements (but I digress).

 

different rvmat are also applied for, on distance lods to mitigate the contrast differences between each of them.

 

So much for my own experience of self modder, so not professional.

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you do realise that your tone makes you look like an arse, don't you?

you got an answer using the same tone that you used"

I can't understand HOW the colour of the next LOD down can be wrong if people have eyes ! ... how can the artists get this SO wrong?  There have been loads of examples put up for checking .. but still nothing on this from BIS.  Please 'have a strong word with' your artists!

you do realise that this is a massive problem and needs to be fixed, don't you?

yes i agree, but pushing blame into a single direction without actually knowing how things work is not the best way to get your point across?

so, your issue is color deviation or LOD changing too soon? - because if it is related to characters changing to a different color at a distance, it might simply be a matter of copy pasting the lower lods across different models and thus this needs to be reported individually, if it is about lod changing too fast, i have explained this for you bellow. Also, when talking about an unreleased product, it is wiser to refrain from attacking people just because.

 

 

I would say @kremator was right. The reply does sound a little condescending, especially when coming from modders and maybe not pro's. Of course that may not be the case and these modellers may be professionals at the job. I think that’s unlikely though, as pro’s would not be that condescending and would take the time to explain. Well certainly in my experience from my own background (not in gaming I would add). Giving people time and explaining what or how a process works, takes little effort and gets better respect.

1. there is no difference between making an asset while working for BI and making an asset for a mod. Same process, same limitations, same sort of LODs etc. There is a reason why BI chooses to work with 3d artists from this very own community, because they are already accustomed to how things works in this engine...and there are quite a few people in this game community that are actually doing this for a living...

2. of course it takes more time to explain, it also worth noting that explaining is done when a question is asked. In this case, there wasn't. Do check the editing parts of the forums and see for yourself who answers all the issues there..pretty sure not BI btw.

 

@bratwurste has a point. The game is stagnating because we have so many modders working within the BI company now. New fresh professional people would probably move the game on and conquer some of the problems that the series has had for so long, well ever really. But perhaps pro’s wouldn’t want to work with the engine now, who knows.

see, this sort of ignorant reply gets me in a fit: so the game as a whole is "stagnating" because BI chooses to get additional force by working with external artists (just like 90% of the other game companies out there that prefer to outsource content creation)? really? what does one have to do with the other? it's like saying that the welder working for Mercedes is the one to blame for the design, lack of innovation etc etc

 

I would add, I appreciate many of the mod makers in the series, those that build mods and that are respectful to those that play using those mod/addons. Many take time to explain what they do and are the first to say their work is ‘not’ professional, but instead a much loved hobby.

while modding is a hobby (at least for arma), it does NOT mean that the work pushed out is not professionally made. One does NOT exclude the other. Some people fail to realize the amount of money this sort of work would cost if it would be "commisioned" at the industries rates..

 

However, mod makers tend not to be professionals at the work, some are, I know. But on the whole it’s an enthusiasts hobby based thing. Many move into the industry we know, if that is a good thing or not is for each individual to judge. My own view is it can be good and bad.

 Regards topic, I have no idea how the process (LOD) works and seeing as no-one seems to want to step up and explain, in a respectful way, how it works in the series with this engine and how it may be done better, then none of us are going to be any the wiser.

:huh:

This seems to be the issues of todays world> people need to be explained individually. In the case of LODs (generic) most engines out there handle it exactly the same (the main difference being in terms of distance to change and if or if not they are using any sort of procedural blending between these lods)

Moreso, BI does provide samples for each sort of "class" so one can actually open it up and have a look itself how textures are handled, and how LODs are.

In any case, for Arma, LODs change distance is based on the amount of draw calls, not fixed distance. The recent changes includes a different occlusion approach and tweaked LOD changes limits - as far as i could tell, lower draw calls. In short, there is gonna be a difference in how engine handles LODs based on the amount of objects and individual textures it needs to load in its buffers. The more objects the faster switch to a lower lod is gonna happen - it is called adaptive degradation, and is not a new tech. Changes based on fixed distance of the camera from object to a lower visual LOD is something that would not allow this sort of adaptivness.

And while from an asset point of view, the visual LODs are more or less the same (silhouette being the main concern here), there are some classes where the change is a lore more obvious mainly due to the way both geometry and textures are set up (more specifically, the vegetation).

to conclude, one cannot paint everything with the same brush when it comes down to LODs, so the best course of action would be to report it on individual basis per model on the feedback tracker (which is not the point of this thread)

lodu explained in detail how vegetation is handled so i am not gonna go over it once more, especially since he surely knows more about the vegetation subject than i do.

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And so the thread has had to be cleaned up as some member of this forum decided to get their handbags out and start throwing accusations and insults at each other. Please refrain from doing such behaviour and please be civil towards each other. Failure to do will result in forum penalties been applied.  :ph34r:

 

Now lets get back on topic. ;)

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Does "LODs of models" mean things other than vegetation? Because grass is still popping in like nobody's business. I can't really say if trees are any better because it was the grass that caught my attention more than anything else.

 

Buildings seem alot better though, if it's not my imagination.

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On the matter of wrong coloured LODs; I believe a part of the problem is the rather short shadow distance and I wish bohemia could find a way to render distant shadows without impacting performance too much.

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The latest dev branch is a huge improvement with LOD popping. Bear in mind I had optimized my video settings with the last dev build.

 

The Good

Vehicle LOD popping is non-existent (NATO stuff at least). Looks much nicer

Trees are improved as well. Much smoother and fewer transistions

Same for buildings

 

The Challenging

This change hit my FPS between 10-20 FPS when near any type of foliage on foot (I think it was just on foot)

When approaching the prowler and about 10 feet away there's visible stutter. Doesn't appear to be associated with a LOD change but I could be wrong.

 

As a sidenote, when flying over the quarry with the diggers etc, FPS dropped dramatically from 60 to 15.

 

This is a good looking island though!

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Well I made a short test drive on Tanoa and it seems better for me, atleast the trees aren't changing the whole time.

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Does "LODs of models" mean things other than vegetation? Because grass is still popping in like nobody's business. I can't really say if trees are any better because it was the grass that caught my attention more than anything else.

 

Buildings seem alot better though, if it's not my imagination.

 

I think grass and trees are handled differently, but I do see some improvement on pretty much everything else after a quick test.

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So far:

 

Object lod transitions are much better (pretty much seamless transition with little flickering).

 

FPS seems lower (may be related to other changes on todays build so I'm not auto-blaming new lod tech for this).

 

Trees seem the same (they transform after you finish zooming in/out).

 

edit:  Smoke seems to disappear from view too much when zoomed out.

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On the matter of wrong coloured LODs; I believe a part of the problem is the rather short shadow distance and I wish bohemia could find a way to render distant shadows without impacting performance too much.

 

although for some reason i never see a real performance hit when increasing shadow detail and distance. big placebo disclaimer of course.

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