Architects & Firefighters about 9/11

[Tonci87 163]

The goal of that group was fairly simple. They just needed to keep it secret long enough until they were aboard the planes. That is a fairly short ammount of time. 

Furthermore that group acted within the moral values of their souroundings. They and the people around them didn´t percive their actions as something bad. 

 

The situation would be different if that conspiracy was true. The people behind it would live within a society that would percive their actions as inherently evil. It becomes much harder to keep a secret in such an environment. 

[cosmic10r 2320]

Well first of all: everything is already a conspiracy. A conspiracy is a plan involving a group of people. However, the word has been commandeered to mean a different thing now.

 

Second, is an idea I had. If I were some shady government department who's job it is to deflect attention from information that points to the truth, I would simply join in. If genuine, or at least on-the-right-track videos started coming out on the topic of high-level assassinations, government frauds, terrorist false flag operations etc, I would add to the list by making thousands of versions myself. Some would be true, some would be false, some would contain mixtures of truth & false in variable proportions, all would be low-cost amateur investigation, all would help to obscure and cheapen the genuine efforts. I would create the culture of "conspiracy nut" so that it wold be easy to dismiss, and even simply ignore, any investigation that seemed to be closing in on the truth.

 

I think that if some information DID emerge that was convincing and damning, that it simply would not get any attention, and if it did, it would be from an insignificant number unable to act on it. After all, if you own the truth, but everyone else ignores you, what can you do? A sufficiently throttled news media would only "prove" to your audience that you have no credibility.

 

All IMO natch :)

It's long been suspected that that is exactly what is going on. Information being fed both real and fictitious to create no clear path for the truth.

I agree that it seems fairly unlikely that a "shadow" group could keep it a secret for so long, but more unrealistic than a guy in a cave in tora bora organizing an attack on the Capitol of the world's only super power of the time ? I can't really fully believe that that is possible either.

At least it seems less possible from the cave then say... from inside the halls of power themselves.

The key if it were say an internal job would be the compartmentalization of information and them controlling the narrative after the fact.

The mainstream media are not investigative journalists... they are paid shills for the goals of the media owners and as such it is not impossible to believe that either knowingly or otherwise, they have contributed to the obfuscation and misinformation.

It's interesting trying to dig though because as you say... you can find a weird Anamoly and then in the same breath find what seems like a semi reasonable explanation but it never full answers the question.

Take for example the jetfuel, we know the Temps are off but the argument that the heat was sufficient to weaken the steel seems reasonable. If the weight of the upper floors forced that area to collapse then it does seem plausible that the upper floors would collapse but then it seems not entirely plausible that the building would fall in what 100% looks like a controlled demolition. Every floor cascading down pancaking the one below it with near zero deflection.

Seems unlikely but not impossible.

Even the reasonable answers create another series of questions...

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Pretty sure what happened was they had the buildings rigged so that if they get damaged, they didn't have to all the way to the top floors to repair it. All they had to do was demo it, and they didn't have to do work so high in the sky. This is not serious.

 

On a serious note though, It's highly likely it was staged. Think about it this way. If you want to go to war, and the people are heavily against it, what do you do to get the people behind you without question? You make them mad. You unite them, and fill them with an urgent sense of revenge. Then you give them a valiant speech and rush into battle. Not saying this is what happened, i'm saying it's a possible outcome. I don't know how they got there, only that it happened. I'm also unaware of what the US Economy was like prior to the events, and what the motive was behind going to the middle east anyways, aside from just the guise of taking out another dictator.

 

What blows my mind behind that analogy, is that if you're claiming to topple a dictator and place freedom and democracy in it's place, not only the people of that nation have to be behind the idea, but you have to take into account the nations around it, as well as the aftermath, and who you'll put in power after the topple. But what's not shocking is that they replaced the government and it's still an extremely unstable nation. What is shocking is that Bush had told Sadam to leave before they got there... why? Why not just take him out without giving him a personal chance to get out. Secondly, if it were about democracy, you'd imagine that such values would be upheld at home right? Well, it's not exactly that way anymore.

 

On another note, @Cosmic, you're correct about the information thing. In the 21st century, it's no longer really a physical conflict, ever since the 2000s it's shifted to war on information. This is one of the most devastating wars, given the fact it leaves everyone divided and doubtful, and knowledgeable, except for those who are capable of putting complex puzzles together. It becomes a real challenge to present the truth to the masses, who are already confused by all the conflicting reports, stories, and most effectively, opinions, which people pick, pull and chooses sides between. Such is the reason why it's still unclear, as 9/11 is the biggest unsolved case in human history, really, and it's important still, because that single event is likely responsible for this entire war on terrorism mess we're in leading up to the immigration crisis, and proxy wars waging and spreading in the middle east into Europe and North Africa. 

[ProfTournesol 956]

As much as i can believe that Bush's clique was able to lie and manipulate the whole world for its own interest, i still don't believe that anybody could have placed military explosives at the very floors where the planes crashed into. It wasn't possible for the wannabe pilots to aim a specific place, nor to anybody to foresee where the planes could crash. That's pure fantasy.

[Tonci87 163]

Can you imagine this?

 

"Fly slower, I have to count the floors, we have to hit the correct one..."

 

Let´s not even go into the possibility that if you plant explosives where a plane will hit, you can never be sure that the explosives are still in the intended place (most likely not) after the plane has hit.

That whole theory is just stupid.

[pedeathtrian 99]

If you want to go to war, and the people are heavily against it, what do you do to get the people behind you without question? You make them mad. You unite them, and fill them with an urgent sense of revenge. Then you give them a valiant speech and rush into battle.

Exactly. You need another Pearl Harbor.

The whole Pearl Harbor thing was about allowing Japanese to make enough damage to not just get USA involved in WWII, but also be well backed up by its society. Everything was under control long before 12/7.

Coincidences? I don't think so.

 

---

 

Let´s not even go into the possibility that if you plant explosives where a plane will hit, you can never be sure that the explosives are still in the intended place (most likely not) after the plane has hit.

That whole theory is just stupid.

You don't put explosives on certain floor to bring down the building. You put it evenly (does NOT mean on every floor) along all the height of the building. Check those failed building explosion videos on Youtube to see what I mean.

Of course you don't bring down the skyscraper by putting explosives somewhere near 2/3 of its height. What you get there is topmost 1/3 falling off and 2/3 continuing to stand as if nothing happened. Or, more likely, even if you damage bearing constructions enough, topmost 1/3 will just sit on top of lowest 2/3 just because of its own weight and because of lowest 2/3 designed to carry much more than just weight of topmost 1/3.

[ProfTournesol 956]

 

You don't put explosives on certain floor to bring down the building. You put it evenly (does NOT mean on every floor) along all the height of the building. Check those failed building explosion videos on Youtube to see what I mean.

Of course you don't bring down the skyscraper by putting explosives somewhere near 2/3 of its height. What you get there is topmost 1/3 falling off and 2/3 continuing to stand as if nothing happened. Or, more likely, even if you damage bearing constructions enough, topmost 1/3 will just sit on top of lowest 2/3 just because of its own weight and because of lowest 2/3 designed to carry much more than just weight of topmost 1/3.

 

 

But if you watch the WTC buildings crumbling, they did crumble from the dammaged floor.

[pedeathtrian 99]

But if you watch the WTC buildings crumbling, they did crumble from the dammaged floor.

That was my point exactly. Buildings do not crumble unless you make them to. I mean not old building in which you make hole with a finger, but ones in good conditions.

If you have a controlled demolition it's not that hard to control the direction, speed (with which it goes along the required direction) and many other parameters of that demolition. Check out open-pit mining explosions.

Starting chained explosion from specific point is as simple as including or excluding elements into/from electrical circuit, that is as simple as turning some switches on/off.

 

Now, what floor was damaged in WTC building 7? It wasn't attacked by planes, so it never had that amount of fuel to "soften bearing construction" up to building collapse (of whatever reason they come up with).

 

Finally, it doesn't necessary have to be explosives. Thermite could do the trick. Or couple of other ways of damaging steel.

[ProfTournesol 956]

 

Starting chained explosion from specific point is as simple as including or excluding elements into/from electrical circuit, that is as simple as turning some switches on/off.

 

But that would mean that the whole building was mined, as it wasn't possible to foresee where the planes would crush. I fail to see how it would be possible to mine multiple floors of several buildings without anybody to have noticed it. Once again, that's pure fantasy to me.

[pedeathtrian 99]

I fail to see how it would be possible to mine multiple floors of several buildings without anybody to have noticed it. Once again, that's pure fantasy to me.

If they did it, they didn't do it in one night.

Imagine you work in WTC on floor 99. One day company on floor 100 moves to office in another building on another street, or even city. Some other company moves in. They don't like what is left by previous owners, so they make some repair. They drill walls, do some replanning, etc. Why on Earth would you care? Some discomfort though... How on Earth would you know the same thing happened on 89/90 floors week ago, and the same will happen next week on 109/110? You don't even go there. Like, never ever in your life.

Why would you care about building owner is closing lift 1 (of 10 or 20 or whatever they had) for maintenance for a week? Sure lifts need maintenance. Lift 2 is the next.

Why would you care if they paint stairs in west wing (east next week) and it stinks like some weird shit, but it's ok, since the whole stairway is sealed, so little to no smell in offices?

Not saying there could be service rooms, ventilation shafts, etc. And all this concentrated in central part of the building where all bearing constructions located.

You can mine every room in your own building if you have time.

 

I don't say it was exactly this way. My point is it's not that impossible.

[Eight Ball 16]

Not that I really believe in the conspiracy theory, but the story of William Rodriguez, one of the WTC janitor, is quite...well, I'll let you be the judge:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1219050.interview_the_untold_story_of_september_11/

 

Also, and I'm just playing the devil advocate here, you guys claim such a big secret would be impossible to hold for such a long time.

But have you considered the possibility that all those involved in the preparation  of the attacks, died that day ?

Several independant cells, each one responsible of one target. The "pentagon cell" would be in charge of the attacks on the WTC and the flight 93, the WTC cell would be in charge of the pentagon attacks, etc.

Or maybe they were in the planes ?

I don't know, more than 3000 people died on 9/11. So, if there's one day where you can make a lot of "unconvenient" people disappear, there's no better day.

[dmarkwick 261]

I don't know about the probability of a number of people keeping such a secret. After all, if there were precedent for it, by definition we would not know about it.

[Tonci87 163]

If they did it, they didn't do it in one night.

Imagine you work in WTC on floor 99. One day company on floor 100 moves to office in another building on another street, or even city. Some other company moves in. They don't like what is left by previous owners, so they make some repair. They drill walls, do some replanning, etc. Why on Earth would you care? Some discomfort though... How on Earth would you know the same thing happened on 89/90 floors week ago, and the same will happen next week on 109/110? You don't even go there. Like, never ever in your life.

Why would you care about building owner is closing lift 1 (of 10 or 20 or whatever they had) for maintenance for a week? Sure lifts need maintenance. Lift 2 is the next.

Why would you care if they paint stairs in west wing (east next week) and it stinks like some weird shit, but it's ok, since the whole stairway is sealed, so little to no smell in offices?

Not saying there could be service rooms, ventilation shafts, etc. And all this concentrated in central part of the building where all bearing constructions located.

You can mine every room in your own building if you have time.

 

I don't say it was exactly this way. My point is it's not that impossible.

 

 

What you describe simply doesn´t work. 

 

If indeed every floor was mined, then you would have seen the results of those explosions, for example glass breaking. 

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

just some food for thought. The Twin towers were designed in a way so that if they needed to have them collapsed (because, lets face it, eventually, infrastructure has to come down at some point), they would fall directly down. They had this design in the top that distributed the weight evenly even if things were off balance, for instance one pillar taking too much weight then the other. So if they wanted to make it look like an accident, it's easy as hell, because it's already designed to do just enough damage so that they don't have to do excessive cleaning and repairs to the surrounding areas. Still doesn't explain building 7, but i believe that the truth is mixed in the lie in order for the lie to look like the truth, and easier for "conspiracies" to be placed on people who obviously don't wear tin foil hats.

 

But lets assume that they couldn't put explosives on all the floors and what not, it would still take demolition to take down a building that massive, regardless. Do you know how tall the damn thing was? For the pillars to have crushed into chunks has to be demolition. The jet fuel couldn't melt the entire length of the building, and we know it didn't. The weight of the collapsing building would have left the pillars floating, which only a few near the bottom did. To have it all go down dramatically, you need explosives.

 

Also, is it a coincidence that passports and such were found near by, and literally still readable? If jet fuel did melt something, you reckon it would melt the damned passports too, which were likely in the pilots seat with the terrorists, no? You reckon they tossed em out the bloody window before impact? Hahaha, i think NOT. Also, if you want to really throw the cake out the window, just keep in mind that this isn't impossible. It's easy as hell for a country that spends 600 Billion a year on defense to rig two massive tower's (with a side meal of tower 7), to crumble down as they were designed to when the time came, and make it look like an "accident". Let's not forget, that Terrorism was created under Political conditions and it remains this way today. If you look at what's going on in Syria, it's as obvious as daylight. IS it really about toppling a dictator? Think about this logically. Look how well that's gone in two other countries. But, keep an open mind. You need it.

[cosmic10r 2320]

What you describe simply doesn´t work.

If indeed every floor was mined, then you would have seen the results of those explosions, for example glass breaking.

That would be under the assumption the charges were near the outer walls.

The charges would be on the support pillars buried in the metal infrastructure of the building and if it's actually what was used they would be shaped charges (thermite) to sever the supports and not huge bundles of tnt with Wile E coyote on a trigger box...

There are a few photos kicking around of some of the alleged left over girders showing a very precise 45 degree "cut" through them...

There are a number of stories of trucks in the early mornings in the weeks b4 9/11 coming and going at an usual rate..

Also if you watch the civilian video captured that day at ground level... there is many many mentions of explosions in the lower levels... firefighters, tourists... lots of people on the ground kept exclaiming... there was an explosion in the stairwell... or some such

This was separate from the fuel from the planes...

[dmarkwick 261]

That would be under the assumption the charges were near the outer walls.

I guess if you really wanted to delve into it, the charges also don't have to go off all at the same time. Just one at a time until the structure is weakened enough to collapse on its own :) Would also match up to witness accounts of hearing several explosions?

[spooky lynx 73]

Conspiracies don´t work!

 

Something of that scale, with literally dozens or hundreds of people involved, can not remain a secret for very long. Why? because humans are not good at keeping secrets.

There's no need to keep the things secret nowdays, massive outcries like "This is just a silly conspiracy BS! Stop spreading this! Shut up you tinfoil hat user!" and other kinds of public opinion manipulations seem to be far more effective.

[ceeeb 147]

For those interested, here are the NIST reports into the WTC building collapses (each section is its own report):

https://www.nist.gov/engineering-laboratory/final-reports-nist-world-trade-center-disaster-investigation