ARMA 3: Conflict '85 - A CUP expansion

[R0adki11 3945]

4 hours ago, papa6 said:

Perhaps, if they continue to mod this, they could do according to time periods:

 

Conflict 1985 (since they're busting their humps to make this)

Conflict 1944- 1970 (then people can relive actual incidents, Checkpoint charlie, and other incidents)

Conflict 1970-1990

 

That would be interesting, but remember this mod is a recreation of what was in the game Operation Flashpoint so it will not be completely accurate to the 85 era.

[scimitar 221]

3 hours ago, R0adki11 said:

 

That would be interesting, but remember this mod is a recreation of what was in the game Operation Flashpoint so it will not be completely accurate to the 85 era.

 

That's true but with some work (should anyone wish to do so) from the modding community (replacement packs, config replacements, etc.), it could be made 1985 accurate.

 

I've mentioned it previously, but the primaries would be replacing the M16A2 with the M16A1, the Abrams with the M60A3 and the majority of the 5 ton trucks with 2 1/2 ton trucks. I haven't mentioned it before, but the M92 Beretta would need replacing with the M1911A1 and the majority of the Bradleys would need to be replaced with the M113 and it's variants. That wouldn't require that those things be removed though, as small numbers of some of the equipment may have been present in theater and there is always the possibility that more modern weapons and vehicles could have made their way into the theater, either before (if there were warnings that things were heating up) or after hostilities kicked off. I'm just mentioning things that I saw and used when I was there but I'm sure that there are other things that would need changing. Just to be clear, those aren't things that I'm suggesting that the mod team do, because they are aiming to be true to OFP, but for anyone looking to correct accuracy issues from OFP, those would be good starting points. Also, references from Orders of Battle to Field Manuals and many other things from the time period are available online and can be found with a bit of searching if anyone should wish to take on such a project. Admittedly, that's all a bit premature, at least until the mod is released.

[yevgeni89 163]

It would be interesting to see , I am just glad that there will be cold war era units at all, until someone decides to undertake other periods of the cold war or goes more in depth this will be my go to for everything. 

The early 80's though would be interesting as I believe the playing field would definitely be a lot more even, No Abrams/No Kevlar, relying on M60's/M48's wearing steel pots vs T-72/T-55 and bad guys wearing steel soviet pots. 

[papa6 10]

On 10/17/2017 at 1:49 AM, R0adki11 said:

 

That would be interesting, but remember this mod is a recreation of what was in the game Operation Flashpoint so it will not be completely accurate to the 85 era.

 

I understand. I just want to help simplify things. But yeah OFP is your source data of course. Should you desire, 3rd Armor Division, 8th Infantry Division, 11th ACR and others in support. But  I found a definitive website with History of units involved with the Fulda Gap mission. I was in at the tail end of the Cold war. I was with Charlie Company 3rd Battalion 8th Infantry Division(mechanized) from Jan 1989- Jul 1991. If you want to create a massive multiplayer and singleplayer missions for this event, here's the URL for the website Military History and it is pretty comprehensive about units and area involved. I visited there once in early 1989 and our sergeants took us there by German bus to see our "would be" fighting positions, mine was against a particular tree with a pretty damn good view of the entire area of battle, had it happened.

 

Also, in Aug/Sept 1987, we traded in our M16A1's for the new M16A2's. So 1987 was surely a good point to tinker with ARMAments.  We had the M1A1ASA Abrams MBT's and the best Soviet tank was the T72 and then T80's circa 1988/1989 and so on.

[papa6 10]

On 10/17/2017 at 4:59 AM, scimitar said:

 

That's true but with some work (should anyone wish to do so) from the modding community (replacement packs, config replacements, etc.), it could be made 1985 accurate.

 

I've mentioned it previously, but the primaries would be replacing the M16A2 with the M16A1, the Abrams with the M60A3 and the majority of the 5 ton trucks with 2 1/2 ton trucks. I haven't mentioned it before, but the M92 Beretta would need replacing with the M1911A1 and the majority of the Bradleys would need to be replaced with the M113 and it's variants. That wouldn't require that those things be removed though, as small numbers of some of the equipment may have been present in theater and there is always the possibility that more modern weapons and vehicles could have made their way into the theater, either before (if there were warnings that things were heating up) or after hostilities kicked off. I'm just mentioning things that I saw and used when I was there but I'm sure that there are other things that would need changing. Just to be clear, those aren't things that I'm suggesting that the mod team do, because they are aiming to be true to OFP, but for anyone looking to correct accuracy issues from OFP, those would be good starting points. Also, references from Orders of Battle to Field Manuals and many other things from the time period are available online and can be found with a bit of searching if anyone should wish to take on such a project. Admittedly, that's all a bit premature, at least until the mod is released.

 

Some units had the M1A1ASA MBT's about 1985 or earlier. It was put into service in the early 1980's. on my base, we had 3/8 with M113A2's and listed 5/8 with M2 Bradley's. so you can get away with the mod "as is."

[scimitar 221]

4 hours ago, papa6 said:

 

Some units had the M1A1ASA MBT's about 1985 or earlier. It was put into service in the early 1980's. on my base, we had 3/8 with M113A2's and listed 5/8 with M2 Bradley's. so you can get away with the mod "as is."

 

I can't say with certainty that there were no Abrams in Germany in 1985 but if there were, I don't believe that they were there in large numbers. I was stationed at Panzer Kaserne in Boeblingen and worked in an Armament shop. Tank turret repair was part of our mission supporting the 1st ID and other units. I got there in 10/84 and left 4/86 and we never had a single Abrams in our shop during that time. There may have been some assigned elsewhere in Germany but I never saw them. Also, the only tanks I saw during Reforger '86 were the M60A3 and the German Leopard II. I'm certain that there were others present and probably/possibly some Abrams but I never saw them. Thus, my assertion that they weren't present or were rare in theater at the time. During my 18 months in Germany, I also went to Grafenwoehr many times and never saw one on those trips either. Still, it's possible that they didn't go to or rarely went to Graf for gunnery training. They could have went to Wildflecken instead. Also, by 2/87, the 5th ID at Fort Polk, still hadn't received any M1 tanks either. By that date we also hadn't received Kevlar helmets and were still using the old steel pots. The Kevlar helmets first saw widespread distribution in Germany in early 86 but were being seen stateside a good bit later. I've been actively searching for a deployment history of the Abrams (and other equipment) but so far, I haven't been able to find anything in detail.

[Hvymtal 1251]

On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 2:52 PM, slatts said:

One missing piece is the AH-1 

You could modify the existing AH-1 model using the UH-1H's rear end and main rotor and sort of fineggle the cockpit, intake, and gunner camera, or you could politely ask Unsung for their AH-1 and modify the cockpit and gun mount. If you wanted to do the AH-64 as well, the AH-64D is very similar visually to the Alpha, just with the radar dome removed.

 

If you can get an AH-1F working in good order I'd fly that shit all day long!

[slatts 1978]

Biggest issue with a conversion from new models to old is the cockpits. All those shiny glass cockpits have to be modelled back into analog

[scimitar 221]

At the risk of going a bit further off topic in this thread, I did some more research and found some interesting information. I don't mind admitting that I was wrong about the M1 being present in Germany in 1985. Apparently the M1 was first received (12 of them) by a troop of the 11th ACR in Germany on 8/10/83. The 2nd ACR was supposed to start receiving the M1 sometime in 1984 but I have no idea when, as the article I read was written in 1984 and didn't mention if they received them or not. My guess is that most (all?) M1's went to units in the areas around Fulda and Hof, as those areas were the most likely invasion corridors in sectors defended by US units and that the M1 didn't start to become the primary MBT of USAREUR armored units until quite a bit later. I'm fairly certain that the 1st ID didn't have any in regular service in 1985, though it's possible that they had a few in the transition stage for familiarization. I've thought a bit more on why I never saw the M1 during Reforger '86 and though the answer should have been obvious, it didn't occur to me until I read some messages on a war gaming forum. "Reforger" stands for "Return of Forces to Germany" and the majority of participants were units stationed in the US. Most of those units weren't upgraded to the M1 until after the majority of USAREUR units received them. Another article I read stated that the M60A3 wasn't phased out of conventional service by the army until 1997, with the last few being retired as Opfor training vehicles in 2005.

 

However, there is still a major anachronism concerning the M1 as depicted in OFP and thus Conflict '85. The M1A1 is the tank depicted and those weren't introduced until 1986. All Abrams tanks in the game should be the original M1 variant. There is actually quite a bit of difference between the two tanks with the main gun being the primary. The M1 had a 105mm gun which was found to be inadequate for the killing range that the army wished it to have. The M1A1 was armed with a 120mm gun which was much superior to the previous gun. I really haven't researched the M2/M3 Bradley but since it initially entered service about a year after the M1, the statistics concerning it's operational history are probably similar to the M1 but perhaps delayed a bit longer. So yes, the M1 was in Germany in '85 and before but there is one thing that has occurred to me that hasn't been considered as far as I know. It's totally subjective, but considering that the most likely flashpoint for a war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact in 1985 would have been the border between East and West Germany (and possibly the Czechoslovakian and West German border), is it likely that the US Army would have sent a large number of M1's to the islands of Everon or Malden? Though the islands are fictional, if they existed, would USAREUR have taken away such a significant force from vital defensive positions to recapture islands of questionable strategic value. For that reason, I still think the M60A3 should have been the primary MBT of OFP. Perhaps (almost certainly!), I'm overthinking it but that's half the fun of "what if" scenarios such as that introduced by OFP. 

 

For anyone interested, this article has some fascinating information concerning border operation between the FGR and DDR from 1945 until 1983: https://history.army.mil/documents/BorderOps/content.htm

[REFORGER88 144]

I've been researching the 2nd Squadron of the 11th ACR for reasons, but an apparently now-defunct photo database showed extremely interesting photos of the 2/11 Kaserne and motor pool being prepared for renovation around 1984 to receive their new complement of M1 and M2/M3 armor. Though no other sources exist about  2/11 that I can find with such accuracy, it appears they didn't stop operating M60A3 mbt's until late 1984 or early 85 when they finally finished recieving and training on M1s. From what I could find, the earliest recipient of the M1 was the 1st Squadron of the 11th ACR, around 1983. Just wanted to throw that out there for Scimitar xD.

But, more on topic, I think the AH-1F (or whichever variant is chosen for C85) will be the last difficult US vehicle, as it must once again be scratch made; as many of the US vehicles had to be unfortunately. I don't know how viable modifying the advanced Zulu Cobra model is, but the differences between those two vehicles are many, not the least of which is an entirely different cockpit and engine.

[scimitar 221]

8 minutes ago, REFORGER88 said:

I've been researching the 2nd Squadron of the 11th ACR for reasons, but an apparently now-defunct photo database showed extremely interesting photos of the 2/11 Kaserne and motor pool being prepared for renovation around 1984 to receive their new complement of M1 and M2/M3 armor. Though no other sources exist about  2/11 that I can find with such accuracy, it appears they didn't stop operating M60A3 mbt's until late 1984 or early 85 when they finally finished recieving and training on M1s. From what I could find, the earliest recipient of the M1 was the 1st Squadron of the 11th ACR, around 1983. Just wanted to throw that out there for Scimitar xD.

But, more on topic, I think the AH-1F (or whichever variant is chosen for C85) will be the last difficult US vehicle, as it must once again be scratch made; as many of the US vehicles had to be unfortunately. I don't know how viable modifying the advanced Zulu Cobra model is, but the differences between those two vehicles are many, not the least of which is an entirely different cockpit and engine.

 

From the article I linked above: "On 10 August 1983 Troop A of the 1st Squadron of the 11th ACR unloaded 12 of the new Abrams M1 tanks and became the first USAREUR cavalry unit to receive the new main battle tank."

 

That's from section 220 on this page from the site I linked:  https://history.army.mil/documents/BorderOps/ch6.htm#p215

[slatts 1978]

The mod will contain 3 tanks for the US side. M60A3 and M1A1 (as per OFP) and an M1IP armed with the 105mm cannon. To represent the M1A1 being only out of the factory IRL, they'll be painted in flat green, while the other tanks will get service camo

[REFORGER88 144]

1 hour ago, scimitar said:

 

From the article I linked above: "On 10 August 1983 Troop A of the 1st Squadron of the 11th ACR unloaded 12 of the new Abrams M1 tanks and became the first USAREUR cavalry unit to receive the new main battle tank."

Oh very cool! I wish the Eaglehorse photo database was still up, but it's awesome to see another source that confirms it.

But I digress. The C85 mod is not lacking for tanks, and represents the whole gamut of early to late 80s armor very well for the US Army. There's just something about that Patton that screams "classic". I believe slatts and crew have outdone themselves on that front.

[R0adki11 3945]

@REFORGER88 @scimitarcan we try to stay on topic. Thanks

[scimitar 221]

9 hours ago, slatts said:

The mod will contain 3 tanks for the US side. M60A3 and M1A1 (as per OFP) and an M1IP armed with the 105mm cannon. To represent the M1A1 being only out of the factory IRL, they'll be painted in flat green, while the other tanks will get service camo

 

Is there a complete list available somewhere of all the vehicles, weapons, etc., that will be included in the mod? I'm curious to know what gear that wasn't available in OFP, might be included.

[cleggy 297]

On 10/19/2017 at 4:47 PM, REFORGER88 said:

 There's just something about that Patton that screams "classic". I believe slatts and crew have outdone themselves on that front.

 

Just to avoid confusion and possible disappointment I'd like to point out the CUP M60A3 is a different model to that being worked on within conflict85.

Unfortunate timing. We wanted an M60 but didn't realize the CUP model was so near release.

In short - we don't want to take credit for work that isn't ours!

[Hvymtal 1251]

Hey, if both are high-quality models (or at least "good enough for army work") then the more the merrier

[papa6 10]

M1 Abrams service date

 

The M1 Abrams entered U.S. service in 1980, ultimately replacing the M60 tank.[15] The M1 remains the principal main battle tank of the United States Army and Marine Corps, and the armies of Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Australia and Iraq.

 

so 1983 isn't beyond reason.

 

*** My only issue with the M1's I've used is, they're too weak. I put 5 &-72's late 80's era and they wiped out my M1's in a matter of minutes despite their bad guys not losing any tanks.

[papa6 10]

On 10/19/2017 at 5:35 AM, slatts said:

Biggest issue with a conversion from new models to old is the cockpits. All those shiny glass cockpits have to be modelled back into analog

 

would it be feasible in an update to create an M2 Bradley IFV with a working TOW launcher? even if we have to use the same sight at the Bushmaster 25MM. talk about adding the correct edge to an otherwise beautiful vehicle.

 

perhaps use the "F" key to toggle through the systems to the TOW and use the gun sight to acquire the target?

 

As a former Ms Bradley crewman, I can say with 100% accuracy that, after shooting both TOW's, you have to turn your turret a bit and have someone through the troop hatch insert new rounds. dangerous but using a loader timing like the M1 Abrams main gun reloading could add some realistic aspects to the mission. 

[slatts 1978]

On 10/21/2017 at 3:38 AM, papa6 said:

 

would it be feasible in an update to create an M2 Bradley IFV with a working TOW launcher? even if we have to use the same sight at the Bushmaster 25MM. talk about adding the correct edge to an otherwise beautiful vehicle.

 

perhaps use the "F" key to toggle through the systems to the TOW and use the gun sight to acquire the target?

 

As a former Ms Bradley crewman, I can say with 100% accuracy that, after shooting both TOW's, you have to turn your turret a bit and have someone through the troop hatch insert new rounds. dangerous but using a loader timing like the M1 Abrams main gun reloading could add some realistic aspects to the mission. 

 

The best I could do is that the TOW launcher is stowed away until you press F and it will raise up. As for how it reloads. I'm not sure you can do what you described in Arma, apart from making the reload time longer. 

[papa6 10]

14 hours ago, slatts said:

 

The best I could do is that the TOW launcher is stowed away until you press F and it will raise up. As for how it reloads. I'm not sure you can do what you described in Arma, apart from making the reload time longer. 

 

that's possible with a little longer reload time. I never really liked the TOW actually. After I got out of the Army, 1996, the Army came out sometime after with the javelin. no guide wires. If they could build a javelin into that launcher, it would probably do better. roughly the same size and less combersome.

 

oh yeah there there's also more Cold War era vehicles. I'll list them since I don't see them in any mods

 

M163 VADS

 

M901 ITV the defunct vehicle that was pretty common

 

M1064

 

Those were the ones I know of and saw personally due to my units TO&E. the Tow M901's were obsolete due to the TOW launchers on every M2 Bradley. 

 

@slatts feel free to hit me up man. I'm medically retired(retarded in military speak). I'd love to help where I can

[papa6 10]

As a cold war vet, I'd like to say that missions like border skirmishes like the one in the Berlin 27th and 28th OCT 1961 would be cool. I'm not versed in mission creation. life has kept my busy with family recently as my wife had surgery and I nursed her to health

Link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/24/berlin-crisis-standoff-checkpoint-charlie

[yevgeni89 163]

The Vads was in Operation Flashpoint , so high chance that it will be included I believe , those other vehicles are cool, and may come later, but I think for the moment they are just doing the initial operation flashpoint line up .

[R0adki11 3945]

@papa6 the VADS and M1064 can be both found in the Unsung Vietnam Mod. I am sure that the VADS will feature in Conflict 85 as it was there in OFP. Other cold war vehicles are upto the authors of the mod, as the main ideal is to recreate Operation Flashpoint.

[scimitar 221]

Some of the Cold War vehicles that have been mentioned (and some that haven't, such as the BRDM-2 ATGM variant) that probably won't be included as part of the mod when it's initially released, are already available in CUP, which will be a dependency of the mod. I don't know if some of them will need new skins to match what will come with C '85 but they will already be available for those that might want to build mission or campaigns. I'm not aware of a complete vehicles/units/features list for C '85 but if we can go by what was available in OFP, then the lists are readily available.

 

There is complete list of OFP vehicles at this link:

 

 https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Operation_Flashpoint:_List_of_vehicles

 

While not everything in CUP is suitable for Cold War scenarios, a lot of it is. A list of vehicles can be found at this link:

 

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=29716