Halo 3 Marine and Bravo-Kilos

[haleks 8206]

brutes are known for using human weapons, aswell as taking them as trophies (Seen in halo 2 when your playing as the arbiter and find the room full of human gear)

 

Yeah, but that would require different animations for each weapons - that's not really doable. Let's forget that part of the lore... :ph34r:

[hcpookie 3770]

I think they would have a hard time doing literally anything! To be honest, it is a matter of concern to me. Would it be possible to restrict actions based on being of a different 'Man' class? 

NO 

Would it be possible to restrict weapon usage??

NO

 

 

I am planning to make a completely new skeleton with all new animations. This seems to be the best option and would avoid many potential problems. Luckily I am a third-year student 3D animator at the dutch College of Arts in Utrecht, so I have a lot of experience with animating. This is the sole reason why I dare to attempt this :P

 

I am having some problems with figuring out how this system works. Right now I am focused on setting the skeleton up correctly. I have a model.cfg that is correctly set up (at least I think) and a weighted mesh in O2. Looking at the example files I noticed two things that were interesting to me. If anyone knows more, please help! Otherwise, I'll just keep experimenting.

 

1. Definitions of what looks to be the skeleton in the memory LOD.

How do you set this up? It's not just points. I understand that its a combination of single points and dual-points representing axes. Do I have to place all of them manually and hope I perfectly align the points to the bones or is there some way to convert the existing skeleton? And where do I place a single point and where a dual-point? Does it even matter?

 

2. Something called a pivots model referenced in the example model.cfg.

Again, where does this come from? How do I set it up? How essential is it exactly? I understand its at least used for the ragdolling effect, but the example model.cfg notes that its used for hierarchical animation. Any clarification would be great.

 

I'll probably keep bombarding this thread with more questions as time goes on xD

 

Good luck to you.  I am interested to see what you find as it would be beneficial if you found a way to make it happen. Everything that has ever been discussed on the forum in the past regarding "resizing" a skeleton or introducing a different "scaled" model has concluded that it won't work for the reasons previously stated.  There are several things I can list offhand that would benefit from a "rescaled" skeleton... esp. the Vietnamese "short person" skeleton example I previously stated.  But the searches on the forum for "how do I add a child model to the game" all say the same thing, so good luck!  So I'm not optimistic, but what do I know!  :D

[morthon 152]

This is going to be so awesome!

I really like the brutes, they're like the Orks from W40k : don't think too hard on strategy, just rush and stomp the enemy. They'll make amazing guys to fight against...

 

You'd be pretty surprised. Brutes are actually quite intelligent and very capable of executing advanced tactics. I would rather compare them to the Uruk-Hai in the LOTR films. Brutish and savage, but clever and disciplined. And they value each other as brothers, something the Orcs from WH40K definately do not.

 

Realistically speaking, I don't think it would be practical for Brutes to use human weapons. They are tiny compared to them. In Halo 3 they are apparently 2.8 meters tall but conveniently have human-sized fingers. I don't buy it lore-wise and I think it was done purely for gameplay reasons (So the brute weapons would fit in the player's hands). In a perfect world, I would restrict Brutes from using human weapons but allow humans to use Brute weapons with the obvious disadvantage that they would be way too heavy for humans to wield effectively. I can't imagine that it would be easy to aim a brute shot without being blown away by the sheer recoil. I mean, did you see the size of those barrels?? In the end, I want to go for realism.

 

Once again, I am not planning to "rescale" anything. I have succesfully done some tests with the rig I prepared and exported into O2 from Maya as a .p3d and the animations as .rtms. Everything seems to be working so far, safe for a few weird glitches in the fingers that won't deform correctly. But all in all, its looking good. I looked at the CfgMoves definitions a while back and I think I understand how it all works. But yeah, I'll probably run into more bumps as I go along. My first priority right now is to get the brute ingame (albeit static) and call different animations through console commands. To see if I can successfully make the skeleton work in-game and not just in O2.

 

After/If I get that done, I will prepare simple static placeholder poses to portray the different movement states and start working them into a complete moveset. I'll probably make one actual walking animation just to see if I can make a full looping animation work correctly in the moveset.

 

If I manage that, I will start replacing the animations one by one with actual (high-quality?) animations. I'm thinking of making use of the mo-cap studio at my college to do some of it, but I don't know yet. My experience with Mo-capping is pretty sparse. I don't want the animations to look or feel unnatural or cartoony, so I might rotoscope some of it to get it to feel alive. This part will obviously be the most time-consuming part xD

 

As for how I want to approach that. As far as I understand, for the basic movement set I will at least need animations for every movement state (running/walking/idle) for each stance (prone/kneeling/standing) and weapon state (gun raised/gun lowered/unarmed) and for each weapon type (rifle/pistol/launcher). So theoretically, that amounts to at least 3^4= 81 animations for a full moveset, I guess. I may be wrong as my knowledge is limited. Also, that's not including things like throwing grenades(simple throw), placing explosives(putting it down, getting back up), opening your inventory (opening, closing), entering a vehicle (entering, exiting), reloading weapons (rifle, pistol, launcher), vaulting (simple vault), being injured (screaming in pain lying on the floor, recovering), healing (going down, healing loop, getting up). I may or may not have missed a few. I estimate all those would up the amount to about 99 animations.

I'm purposely leaving out things like stance adjustments, limping and weapon deploying as I would only do them later and I fear they are complicated.

 

I had some further concerns, but I can't remember them right now xD

[somesangheili 111]

Really sorry to bring this up, but are you going to do any work on Drakedaeron's Sangheili later? It would be cool if you like tweaked your Brute animations to make them suitable for the Sangheili. 

[lumnuon 295]

Really sorry to bring this up, but are you going to do any work on Drakedaeron's Sangheili later? It would be cool if you like tweaked your Brute animations to make them suitable for the Sangheili.

You probably did not mean it this way in this a rant at all the people that flame about Drake´s work and not to you specifically:

Drakedaeron is the only person actively working on the Elites, on top of that organic modeling is one of the hardest things to do in terms of 3d art. We aren´t even talking about rigging skeletons yet and creating custom animations for them which is something ArmA´s engine only supports very marginaly, to put it mildly. Then Drake has to constantly put up with people that tell him what he achieved so far is shit. Yes he is still learning, like we all are. Yes things can be improved, which is what he is doing at the moment.

Anyway, I will stop here because I don´t want to derail this thread.

@Morthon, great work, I´m really amazed about the things you managed to implement so far.

[morthon 152]

Really sorry to bring this up, but are you going to do any work on Drakedaeron's Sangheili later? It would be cool if you like tweaked your Brute animations to make them suitable for the Sangheili. 

 

It would be cool to have lore-sized Sangheili for my Brutes to crush, but so far I don't see the need. I also don't want to get ahead of myself. Let's first focus on the brutes and see how far FC is then, alright? xD Together with how much time I have to spend on school, realistically speaking this project will probably take a year or two to complete, and that's just our dear Jiralhanae. So we'll see then! I think Drake's elites and the stuff he showed thats wip is already really good, so like I said. I don't see the need.

 

 

You probably did not mean it this way in this a rant at all the people that flame about Drake´s work and not to you specifically:

Drakedaeron is the only person actively working on the Elites, on top of that organic modeling is one of the hardest things to do in terms of 3d art. We aren´t even talking about rigging skeletons yet and creating custom animations for them which is something ArmA´s engine only supports very marginaly, to put it mildly. Then Drake has to constantly put up with people that tell him what he achieved so far is shit. Yes he is still learning, like we all are. Yes things can be improved, which is what he is doing at the moment.

Anyway, I will stop here because I don´t want to derail this thread.

@Morthon, great work, I´m really amazed about the things you managed to implement so far.

 

 

Yeah, apart from the amount of work (though for me most of it is theoretical right now), it all actually seems possible!

 

I found my old halo 3 collectors edition bestiarum while cleaning out my room! Should I go for the canon size? As in 2.8m. I defaulted to 2.6m because 2.8 seemed too big to me to be fun in ArmA xD What do you guys think? Am I crazy? There's still room to change it now.

[in005 241]

I think they should have their average size of 2.76 or 2.80m.

[haleks 8206]

I say stick to 2.6m : even that is very tall, and could cause a few issues (let's not forget those big boys will have to enter buildings eventually!).

[morthon 152]

As it stands now, they probably won't be able to enter any buildings at all, which sounds like exploiting waiting to happen. In the halo games everything is just huge to compensate for their size. Even hunters, which are 3.6m tall, can enter most buildings in halo odst. If this ends up working out, there would have to be changes to many of the mod's buildings, which doesn't sound realistic. A point of concern, I guess. In terms of vehicles I think its possible to have the covenant vehicles change shape to accomodate for the driver. I think that's how they do it in the halo games. It's why a grunt and a brute can somehow both fit perfectly in tje same Ghost. And it would make sense lore-wise given all the different alien species in the Covenant.

[haleks 8206]

Can't you define a new collision shape for the brutes? Just a wild guess, but it could force the Brutes to crouch to enter Arma buildings - although that probably won't work on the AI...

[HorribleGoat 1464]

Can't you define a new collision shape for the brutes? Just a wild guess, but it could force the Brutes to crouch to enter Arma buildings - although that probably won't work on the AI...

Could be done. The collision shape pretty simple geometry blob with few named verticles that define the deformation and while the A3 shapes are not available, A2 shapes are probably the same and could be used as base for upscaling.

[in005 241]

@morthon The building size itself is not the problem, they would only need to be resized. With the problem of the ghost there is a natural solution given. Every species is able to spread their legs over the seat of the ghost, maybe not the humans, caused by our small hips in comparision with the others. With the hip of the grunt it is a different problem, its to small, but they can spread their legs so it fits good.

So the size of the species isn't really a problem, its the only problem in our heads, that we don't like the idea of such big guys running around in arma with buildings made for their size. I think that the real problem... humans are great, but brutes in their real size are better and they would not care about our size, if they would enslave us in real life.

[morthon 152]

@morthon The building size itself is not the problem, they would only need to be resized. With the problem of the ghost there is a natural solution given. Every species is able to spread their legs over the seat of the ghost, maybe not the humans, caused by our small hips in comparision with the others. With the hip of the grunt it is a different problem, its to small, but they can spread their legs so it fits good.

So the size of the species isn't really a problem, its the only problem in our heads, that we don't like the idea of such big guys running around in arma with buildings made for their size. I think that the real problem... humans are great, but brutes in their real size are better and they would not care about our size, if they would enslave us in real life.

 

You do realize that if the buildings were rescaled just to accomodate large characters like the Brutes or the Elites that every single map that uses those buildings would have to be redone, right?

 

Just like that one halo 3 dev said "It wouldn't make for very good gameplay"  if the humans could just hole up inside a building and the Brutes would have no way of getting to them. Granted, the AI isn't very good at manuevering inside buildings anyway though it has greatly improved over the years. It would be unfair if the Brutes wouldn't be able to fortify themselves inside buildings. And it lessens the experience of engaging them if all they can ever do is stand out in the open. Maybe I'm crazy, but it feels like something that might feel boring after a while. Unless wraiths end up being very good at bringing down buildings...

[in005 241]

You do realize that if the buildings were rescaled just to accomodate large characters like the Brutes or the Elites that every single map that uses those buildings would have to be redone, right?

Yes i know this fact, you don't need to rescale the whole building, just the interior size, like corridors and staircases. The doors could keep their size, cause there is already a solution as seen on the mgb killhouses ( http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=19917 ). So every human or small species could use small doors and the bigger ones could blow the door simply away and enter the building.

Would be some work for the creators of the buildings to integrate this changes, but they don't need to change the whole map. It's just a idea of mine, it could work this way, but if noone likes this it's stays simply a idea.

[morthon 152]

It's interesting to think about, but it's also waaaay ahead of where we are now.

[haleks 8206]

It's also the wrong approach, IMO. You don't adapt existing assets to new units; if you want something usable by everyone, you do it the other way around.

[in005 241]

It's also the wrong approach, IMO. You don't adapt existing assets to new units; if you want something usable by everyone, you do it the other way around.

Thats the reason why every parkingslot in my region in germany is to small ^^ The cars become bigger, but the parking slots has an old rule older than 20 years ...

Do you see the problem? Therefore compromises have to be made, in my example between the car industry and the government. The same between different modders of the arma com... i dont want to discuss this right now, i only want to show what i think about it.

[Macser 776]

That'd be in an ideal situation though. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out that way.

 

@Morthon

I think getting them working to a functional level is the thing to aim for. There's always a possibility that scenarios can be created, with assets to suit, later on down the road. But you need something to work with first.  :)

[HorribleGoat 1464]

If the structures were made by the covenant large interior spaces would make sense, but all other they would not. Humans don't usually accommodate their buildings to fit hostile alien races into them so they can come in and kill everybody. If the building is too small no way a Brute gets in without breaking the wall. (which could be an option mind you)

 

Sure it sucks in gameplay balance and with the Arma animation system that may not be flexible enough for animations for big ass aliens peeking in small doors.

But it is natural disadvantage that comes from large body size.

[morthon 152]

It's also the wrong approach, IMO. You don't adapt existing assets to new units; if you want something usable by everyone, you do it the other way around.

 

Yeah that's very nice, but the whole point of this project is to have lore-accurate (thus, large) Brutes.... Not really willing to give that up. I'm already compromising by having them be 2.6m instead of 2.8m.

 

 

I think getting them working to a functional level is the thing to aim for. There's always a possibility that scenarios can be created, with assets to suit, later on down the road. But you need something to work with first.   :)

 

I totally agree, that's why I said its interesting to think about, but its also waaaaaay ahead xD

[haleks 8206]

But it is natural disadvantage that comes from large body size.

True that. I remember a lot of of buildings in Halo where those damn hunters couldn't enter (it wasn't really their role, mind you - those are walking tanks!).

[morthon 152]

What is a warrior without his armor?

Obviously work in progress, blocking stage.

[haleks 8206]

It's nice to finally see their ugly mug again! ^^

[lumnuon 295]

Looks absolutely gorgeous, as always ^^

[morthon 152]

What is a marine without his shotgun?? :P

 

 

The creator of OPCAN is working on textures for me, after that is done this shotgun will be released standalone right here!