Removal of the 2D editor - why - options are good, workflow slowdown for modders

[Beagle 684]

bla bla bla ;) why you dont check that the 2d - editor is still in. so you stop anyway to make missions or do you stay and make missions now, since

it is still in ??

 

and you still can do the same in the 3d - editor.

While the 2D editor still is in, it is already proclaimed that it will be removed completely with APEX.

[katipo66 94]

I used the 3D editor a bit on Dev when it first came out and ive been playing around on it a bit more now, my biggest fear was some features from 2D were not going to be included but it seems all bases are covered and then some.

 

The difference for me is like Notepad compared to Word... It would be nice to have the 2D in the same capacity the 3D was available in A2 (ALT+E?)

 

Im not sure when the novelty of placing items on roof tops will wear of though.

[Nife 33]

After reading through the thread, I would like to leave my two cents on this matter.

 

Before anything, I need to go on record on congratulating BI for their excellent work on EDEN, which was a sorely needed improvement over a tool that's already far beyond its life span - thanks for listening to the players and working as hard as you do, we all deeply appreciate it. This post is in no way an attempt to advocate against EDEN - just hopefully bring some attention to its flaws so that they can be fixed and everyone is happy.

 

However with that said, I have to say that under its current state, EDEN is not yet ready to substitute the 2D Editor. Now, it seems that if this thread is anything to go by, people assume that this is some knee-jerk reaction to change and that we are all grumbling haters with nothing better to do, but I'd ask those with this point of view to reconsider over how stupidly simplified that sounds: development of either missions or addons in ArmA takes many shapes and forms, and I think that before completely scrapping the tool we've used for nearly a decade, some further improvements are required in order not to alienate those out there making content for the game.

 

With this in mind, I'll list some of my concerns and annoyances with EDEN - some small, some big - and hopefully this will make things a bit clearer to those unable to sympathize with our stance.

 

 

The loading times

 

These have already been mentioned in the very OP, but just to make sure this doesn't go unnoticed: EDEN has lots of moments spread out through its workflow where it'll hang up for an increasingly annoying amount of time, in particular during loading a mission, and going back to the editor - things that for most mission makers will go down as a minor inconvenience, but if you make addons or work on scripts, you will know that this is a major pain in the ass.

 

I have to be honest, this sort of soured EDEN a bit for me, because it was just that tiny thing that managed to taint perfection. If improvements could be made around this area and bring the speed back to what it used to be, I would gladly kiss the 2D Editor goodbye with no regrets.

 

Not reading description.ext Headers

 

EDEN has the great functionality of editing variables previously only accessible through editing the description.ext file, which is awesome, but for some scenarios this can be quite confusing. Case in point: I maintain a mission framework which makes use of extending the description.ext class Header in a separate file. It has already occurred to have people asking which is the valid one and if those are now obsolete and what-nots. Of course this is much more of a case of adapting, but it would really be great if EDEN could read and fill the relevant fields into class CustomAttributes from the mission config whenever loading, in order to avoid confusion and redundancy.

 

Weird scripting behavior

 

Now this one I'm leaving last because I'm not sure if I can call this a bug or if this is by design - either way there should be a solution to this issue, so if you don't mind I'll get a bit technical. In the previously mentioned framework I maintain, there has been a bit of a weird behavior I've noted: in the task condition checker script, once I run the mission once and return to the editor, for some reason the while loop declared in line 32 will keep running, which will result in script errors since the objects being checked do not exist within the context of the editor itself. I'm going to assume this is a simple matter to fix and so if anyone has any ideas on how to work this out, I'm all ears.

 

Binarized mission.sqm breaks everything

 

This one I'm leaving left because it was fixed very quickly and once again, for all I know might just be an issue with legacy code. With that said, running the framework with a binarized mission.sqm will basically break every single damn script running, with no survivors. However since this is easy to fix, I'm not really upset.

 

It's too damned good and I feel awful for not making full use of it while sticking to the 2D Editor

 

OK, this one is obviously not a real complaint but it's still true to I'm sure most of us complaining ITT. I love EDEN and I am looking forward to what people will make with it, but for us who like to use ArmA to script and make dumb addons, there are still too many things that need to be worked out.

 

 

Just to make sure: a huge thanks to BI to get this far with the in-game editor. I for one am very excited for Apex and I'm sure it'll be a huge boost to the game's popularity - but in the middle of all this excitement, I would like to ask for some extra attention with this particular group of users which have been supporting the game in their own way for a long time. ;)

[cosmic10r 2331]

One would have to admit that when one says" I have been doing something for _x years and I'm not going to bother trying", there is hardly an assumption there.

However I completely agree with what you said above and approaching it from a perspective of "how do we make this better" is the only way forward.

In particular load times could be a real issue, especially if on a laptop or on a machine near min specs

Anyways... great post

[blacknite3d 3]

I think it would be best if they leave both of them in there.  Let the players/editors/modders decide which tool to use from.  Wish there is a petition for this...

[hinkkiz 10]

If I'm correct, both 2D and 3D editor will be running parallel until Apex update, so there is lots of time for testing. I believe that if BI still see 3D editor too buggy, they would keep the 2D editor alive. I really love the 3D editor, but of course I demand functionalities and stability of the 2D editor.

[sarogahtyp 1108]

I m very unhappy with that new mission.sqm format.

I used the mission.sqm to look for objects and their names, modify their init lines and to get the class names of the objects for my scripts in a fast way.

I think the mission.sqm format should be convertable from edens binary to text format and vice versa.

 

For me there is no need for the old 2d editor but i would appreciate to know there is a fall back option.

What I need for sure is an editable mission.sqm

[Greenfist 1863]

I m very unhappy with that new mission.sqm format.

I used the mission.sqm to look for objects and their names, modify their init lines and to get the class names of the objects for my scripts in a fast way.

I think the mission.sqm format should be convertable from edens binary to text format and vice versa.

 

For me there is no need for the old 2d editor but i would appreciate to know there is a fall back option.

What I need for sure is an editable mission.sqm

Disable binarization when saving. (Or was it somewhere in the settings...?)

[R3vo 2654]

It's also in the Editor Preferences.

[=242= CPT. Helios 18]

While the 2D editor still is in, it is already proclaimed that it will be removed completely with APEX.

I don't really understand what you're missing besides gamelogic waypoints

 

 

I was comfortable with the 2D editor for 15 years. Im not goinf to relearn all of this. I rather phase myself out and fall back to ArmA II whre the CTI community is better and more popuated anyway. BIS dies a great job of alienating the OFP/ArmA players of the first days when we did text editing of the Demo even before there was any editor at all. We never needed a 3D Editor because we knew after a while how thinks would work out in the engine.

 

I mean, okay then. There's really not much of anything to relearn, you can pick up pretty much all of the UI changes in about 30 seconds.

I really feel that BI is damned if they do, damned if they don't by people like you. I see complaints that the tools are ancient, and need some updates, but when BI releases some updates, people complain about alienation. I really see nothing is gone save for a few features like AND OR waypoints with gamelogics, etc. But if you really must fall back to ArmA II, I guess there's really no stopping you if this is your response.

[war_lord 934]

The 2D editor is totally antiquated there's absolutely no reason to keep it updated when there's a 3D editor that does the same job, in 3D.   

[jw custom 56]

Since 3d editor was announced.

 

I thought they said it would remain along with the 3D editor :huh:

[chortles 263]

I thought they said it would remain along with the 3D editor :huh:

Nope, early on they confirmed that yeah the 2D editor was on its way out, and currently the 2D editor has a warning message overlaid about how it's being deprecated when Apex is released.

EDIT: 2 March 2016: SITREP #00145:

Now that Eden Editor is available to everyone, we'd like to clarify our plans for the old 2D Editor. You will have seen that editor is currently still available as non-default. Our plan is to deprecate that editor by the time we release Apex (and its corresponding platform update). In all likelihood that means it would be removed from the game, because we'd want to focus on one tool and not support two full code-bases. We feel that Eden can do everything the old editor could and much more. In case you didn't realize, there is a 2D map mode in the Eden 3D Editor as well! If you feel something is missing or not working how you'd like, please don't hesitate to let us know via the forums.

[JackCapwell 1]

Ever since ALPHA release, I have used the 2D Editor. Seeing the 3D Editor is lovely, but when I make a mission in the 3D Editor, I get distracted, by the 3D-ness, and end up taking what would be 1-2 hours. into 4-5 hours. Which isn't good.

 

I would HATE to see it go.

 

I have spent most of my hours in the 2D Editor, I would HATE to be forced to use the 3D editor, even if there is a "map". it's still not the same as the 2D editor.

 

My two pence.

:p

 

Jack.

[das attorney 858]

I've changed my mind after using the 3d editor for a while.

 

I'm not too worried if they get shot of the 2d editor.  If they keep it, then cool; but if it goes, then that's ok too.

 

The slightly slower loading is offset by better workflow while in it  (easier to test certain things and also easier to look up classes than going into config editor or external websites to get classes).

[dnl04 76]

I have to post again because someone was hurt by my words and apparently removed everything I've posted in this discussion... Am I wrong?

However, let's just hope BI doesn't remove the great & classic 2D editor which is basically one of the main, most groundbreaking features of ArmA.

So... Dear Bohemia Interactive, could you please listen to our lost voices and understand the reasons behind our desperate claims? Please, we've already shed enough tears through our arid cheeks... I know that y'all considering different factors from different points of view but, in my honest opinion, you're basically crafting an abstract Berlin wall within the community. I really hope that you'll do the right thing...

That being said, I'll always love your outstanding work, service and passion but please... Avoid any suicidal choice and make ArmA great again.

[cosmic10r 2331]

I've changed my mind after using the 3d editor for a while.

 

I'm not too worried if they get shot of the 2d editor.  If they keep it, then cool; but if it goes, then that's ok too.

 

The slightly slower loading is offset by better workflow while in it  (easier to test certain things and also easier to look up classes than going into config editor or external websites to get classes).

 

this ^^^

 

 

 

 

 

================================================3DEN == WALL=================================================

 

[Rydygier 1309]

Yes, since I found it on main branch, tested for a short while and I would say, loading times IMO seem short enough. If so, thus for my personal use I see no reason to stay with 2D. Good for me, as they said, 2D will be likely gone anyway in time, which is fully reasonable choice, if Eden is all, what 2D was + much, much more for very low to none workflow cost. 

[tortuosit 486]

I must say meanwhile I am OK with the eden editor, usually I switch to 2D map view...

I'd appreciate if there was an option for defining a default start view (3D/2D map view). Maybe even in a way that it does not load the 3D terrain until you switch to 3D via (Preview Mission/Press M).

EDIT: OK, just recognized "Start in map".

EDIT2: "Start in map" could zoom in a bit more at startup, I think.

[HeroesandvillainsOS 1504]

this ^^^

 

 

 

 

 

================================================3DEN == WALL=================================================

 

Yeah man after using it for a bit, I'm 100% on the 3den train.

Makes me wonder why I was so worried in hindsight. They did an outstanding job and map view gets the job done. My missions have come a real long way thanks to the new editor. I'm thoroughly impressed.

[Guest]

I thought I'd chime in here as well.

 

I have only very briefly used the 3d editor, and right now, honestly I have switched steam to offline mode to prevent Arma 3 updates from happening so I can keep the 2d editor for now.

 

Reasons :

 

3D mission .Sqm's are apparently in some new encrypted form, I cannot access them with good old notepad - I would assume they are only accessible by textView now?

I like the basic view, uncluttered and simple, script reliant stuff rather than so much seemingly turned into menu buttons.

I use a modified version of Neo's MapBuilder for static object placement, and I have to say that overall his 3d editor seems so much smoother, precise in object placement, object manipulation of all types including setVectors is all keybound stuff so it's all super quick and simple, and the 3d panel overlay is small and un-obstructing leaving a very clean view, object properties are a click away where everything essential can be hand tweaked.

 

Fortunately, Neo's MB still works even with the 3D editor, as his editor is basically a mission, and the created .Sqm's fortunately can be imported into the 3d editor.

 

Empty vehicles are now accessed in the 3d editor by accessing the normal 'side' vehicles and then setting them to be empty - I sure hope they then fixed the issue with pre-set sided vehicles that are empty showing as enemy objects to opposing forces, as before this would cause enemy units to fire on those empty side-set vehicles. I actually liked just putting down purely empty vehicles, and assigning units to them if I wanted non-empty vehicles, this both avoided the vehicle ever becoming considered an enemy when empty and encouraged putting unique units in the vehicles as well.

 

I'm sure the Bis 3D editor in many ways is indeed a jump ahead from the 2D editor, but Tbh, removing the 2D editor seems to me a bit excessive. I don't really even see how there needs to be much effort involved in continued support for the 2D editor, I mean, if the 3D editor can convert 2D missions to 3D, then isn't that requiring continued support for the 2D editor form in itself anyhow? (I know, there probably is more to it than I am aware of). Still, I have to admit that I for one would probably just stick with the 2D editor if they left it in, well at least as long as I am getting more out of object placement in Neo's MB 3d editor than Eden.

 

It seems to me like, the Bis 3D editor may be something that is generally more user friendly to those that do not know much scripting, and either do not use a user made 3d editor or prefer it over user made editors, but for those that have become accustomed to using the more simplistic 2d editor with or without a user made 3d editor - it really comes across as both more limited in various ways and also a more cluttered view. If and when the day comes that I no longer have access to the 2D editor and have no choice but to work with the 3D editor, over time maybe I might find that I was wrong about some of this stuff, but I'd rather just stick with the 2D editor either way, I've been more than content with it lol. What can you do right.

[cosmic10r 2331]

The missions can be binarized or not... that particular setting can be changed in 3den.

The ability to hide the menus creates the same look exactly for 3den in map mode. And it is far easier to browse units now. Especially with a lot of modders using custom icons for their units. Having used Zeus a bit now it is pretty intuitive to use one or the other having used one of them.

I'll be curious to test the empty thing with vehicles and see if they are indeed still put to a side..

[Guest]

That's good to know about the binarized setting option, I have definitely gotten used to mass converting/adding init field code through just popping open the file in notepad and using replace.

 

I figured I was missing some stuff, sounds like there is some good customization options there for setting up the overlay.

 

Yea that would be uncool if the empty vehicle bug does not have a workaround anymore (provided the issue still has remained).

 

Either way, I'd keep using the 2D editor if they decided to leave it there, for what an added vote is worth towards that anyhow.

[cosmic10r 2331]

A couple of very helpful things that 3den does

-gives the marker center a point. Very helpful not having to move cursor around trying to find marker center to move it.

-ability to sort missions into folders. I keep missions sorted and only the 10 or I'm working on stay in main folder

-there is a setting to launch into map mode. I don't bother because what I have found is it loads in last map type so I keep forgetting 3D is even there because I usually save as last thing in map mode.

-once u get the hang of Zeus style side bar, I have found it much faster to browse for units and groups.. it does take a bit to get comfortable with new organizational system. I still laugh when I see sports and recreation as a class of items..

Main things that took some getting used to

-empty... had to do a Google search for that...

-generic map marker is a bit hard to find

-sync is easier... early on in kept forgetting where it was

-weather settings and making independent hostile to sides wasn't the easiest to find first time around.

Honestly I use 2d mode still 95% of time.. it's just nice to know that 3D is there if needed. Now that I'm about a month in to using 3den, seems like a non issue for me. Once I learned where they had moved a few things I use more than others, I don't even notice it anymore...

[dazzz666 0]

why do they have to take it away, cant they just leave it in place, doesn't need any,more updating. have a think about all the poor bastards like myself who have spent hundreds of hours on custom missions to now be forced to start all over again. I really couldn't care for this new editor. I have the missions I want but soon they will be useless.. please, please if possible make the mission SQM files Compatible. how would you guys at BIS like it if I just came a long after hundreds of hours work and just deleted it on you... don't think you'd be too happy..please just keep it available to those who prefer it and have poured blood and stressful sweat into their missions.. I mean im happy to slowly try the 3D out when I feel. but don't take away something that is not broken and that so many still use and enjoy... after all we are the ONES who keep you in a job.. buying your forever annoyingly changing GAME... and ps if I have mentioned something that has been before or in the wrong topic area I don't give a shit,, don't bother with your replies. =  0  shits given...