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CaptainAzimuth

Arma 3 - Ropes and Climbing

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He did it again...

 

Alright, i honestly don't like talking about this particular youtuber, but now... I'm just done. most of the things he does, is basically role playing for DayZ. However, almost everything he does includes a series of mods, and it usually works better than expected. Case and point, remember how the RopeX capabilities were talked down, and said to be limited? Well, using an infantry portable rope, he throws it into a ground cave, and rappel's down as if it was an already in Engine thing.

 

https://youtu.be/KRCnkxmyjBc?t=5m19s

 

Not sure weather to be amused, or confused. Now, of course most of what he does is simply for show, but most of what he does also brings out the best in some mods. It even brings about the innovation for new features, simply through his intention for cinematic perfection. So why bring it up? He rappel'd down something, that's why. It WORKS exactly as you'd imagine it to. Not only that, i reckon it works the opposite way too.

 

Remember this?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlMNmIGt9r8

 

It's quite literally that, except you can now climb down it, pretty much like how it works in Project Reality.

 

Now, my question. Do you all think it's worth making these mechanics a Vanilla feature, leaving room to do things like get off of buildings with no latter, or down cliffs, over walls, etc? A lot of mods do this well, with limited animations, do you think if BI made the animations for climbing over objects, and holding on to ropes, would it be worth having these features in game?

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Do you all think it's worth making these mechanics a Vanilla feature, leaving room to do things like get off of buildings with no latter, or down cliffs, over walls, etc?

No. Well, IMO it depends whether regular infantry broadly uses those in real life or not. Arma 3 is about conventional infantry, not a zombie survival game S.W.A.T. operations. There are many cool features around (FW AFM, Steel Beasts-level tank simulation, mud from Spin Tires and so on) but most of them are out of game's scope.

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No. Well, IMO it depends whether regular infantry broadly uses those in real life or not. Arma 3 is about conventional infantry, not a zombie survival game S.W.A.T. operations. There are many cool features around (FW AFM, Steel Beasts-level tank simulation, mud from Spin Tires and so on) but most of them are out of game's scope.

The only force i know of remotely that uses ropes actively, would be the USMC Raiders. In fact, i believe there's a group within the USMC that specializes in rope techniques for movement, recon. I'm not entirely sure the name. Though, i'm certain many other units around the globe use the same techniques.

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Yea screw ropes, real army has no ropes either, if army has no rope, arma must not have ropes... Wait what?

Be serious, i'm asking if it's a good idea. I'm not saying have ropes on EVERY SINGLE UNIT in the game, ya know? Maybe only for specific JTAC units for example. Expeditionary Recon Units. Have it in certain Special Operations vehicles, for use by those units for example.

 

Here's my thought, give Engineers a short rope that they can hook to vehicles in case they need to tow it. We can't flip a vehicle over without scripts or ramming it with another vehicle (which in most cases will get you killed by a military grade explosion), thus bringing to use ropes for engineers. They can have a short one in their inventory. For Specific Recon units, they can have a single unit that carries a long rope for rappelling. This would allow for a more in depth infantry focus, wouldn't it? More possibilities at the infantry level. What do you think?

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I think arma shout have a ropes feature to be utilized by infantry in all kinds of ways!!! Its totally a question of a particular mission design to make considerations wether to make ropes available or restrict the according to individual circumstances but in general there shoud be ropes with hooks for climbing and vehicle manipulation and wharever might be desireable. The ropes feature adds so much strategic depht to project reality for example, it should be made dependent on decisions about actual gameplay mechanics and balance and not on naive, uninformed and speculative believes about whether swat uses ropes a lot or not oO

Give us ropes!

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Here's my thought, give Engineers a short rope that they can hook to vehicles in case they need to tow it. We can't flip a vehicle over without scripts or ramming it with another vehicle (which in most cases will get you killed by a military grade explosion), thus bringing to use ropes for engineers. They can have a short one in their inventory. For Specific Recon units, they can have a single unit that carries a long rope for rappelling. This would allow for a more in depth infantry focus, wouldn't it? More possibilities at the infantry level. What do you think?

Flipping and towing vehicles with ropes sounds interesting (I'm actually a bit disappointed that player can't tow vehicles with existing ropes but it seems that glorious PhysXTM has won once again) but I'm not sure that average infantry squad uses ropes as means for entering a building/compound. I'm suspect that rappelling is a quite special area of CQB and used mostly by special units trained to perform hostage rescue and similar counter-terrorist missions, so for that matter ropes are more appropriate for games like Rainbow Six, not Arma.

 

To clarify, I'm not implying that implementation of ropes would somehow make Arma worse but considering current state of Arma's scope and engine limitations ropes probably would not see much application in-game since there aren't many (military, not survival) scenarios that can benefit from rappelling. Towing and flipping vehicles, on the other hand, would be very useful and I'm sure that every unit in every army in the world does that.

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I'd really like to see some features taken from mods and added to vanilla game, especially rope related ones. I understand that not everyone would be happy with this and the BIS Devs will have their own priorities but it would still be pretty awesome. There are a lot of features that could be in game but I guess we can just wait and see what happens. 

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+1000 Ropes

Yes! Ropes would be fantastic. ANY and all gear would be very very welcomed. Sooooo many games

focus way to much on only the weapons and always neglect the gear & equipment.

Creative and immersive experiences unfold much easier with equipment than with yet another gun.

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Yes
 
Given the fact that Arma 3 focuses on modern/future warfare, I'd say ropes should have been planned/included into the vanilla game from the very beginning. (The same goes with one point slings, smooth/fast weapons transitions from Primary to Secondary, and speed/tactical reloads.)
 
The reason is that a large number of militaries across the world have recognized the importance of this type of knowledge and therefore have at least some sort of formal rope courses included in their most BASIC of military training.  
e.g. If you join the United States Marine Corps or Army, you take a 2 or 3 day rope/ repelling course as part of your Basic Training. (Lenght of training may have changed.)

 

The only force i know of remotely that uses ropes actively, would be the USMC Raiders. In fact, i believe there's a group within the USMC that specializes in rope techniques for movement, recon. I'm not entirely sure the name. Though, i'm certain many other units around the globe use the same techniques.

As far as the Raiders go, every branch uses ropes for various things when the situation/mission calls for it, in fact I'd dare to say that the Rangers play with ropes more than the Raiders. 
Ropes are just a specialized piece of gear that is usually included in the planning phase, depending on what the mission/terrain calls for... That way you don't get out there and find yourself having to improvise a rope when you could have just brought one. 
 
The only thing I can think of as far as a specialized group in the USMC pertaining to ropes and movement is HRST Masters (hurst) Helicopter Rope Suspension Training.  That's dealing with SPIE rigging and Fast roping, which are both an awful lot of fun.  :P
In addition there are other types of in depth rope training like during Mountain Leaders Course we had to do an extended course for repelling and rock climbing. 
 
 
Ultimately it should be something that anyone can be equipped with.
I believe engineers carrying a rope would be a fun thing however, I think there needs to be a clear distinction.
 
A rope used for climbing would not / Should not be used for towing a vehicle except in the most dire of circumstances... Mainly because it will probably break pretty quickly. 
 
Tow Ropes are thick, and heavy... They should be included in the inventory of most every vehicles to allow  for towing or rolling up right in the event of an accident. (More compact tow straps would also work) 
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Creative and immersive experiences unfold much easier with equipment than with yet another gun.

That, is a very true statement. I like that train of thought.

 

 

 

Yes
 
Given the fact that Arma 3 focuses on modern/future warfare, I'd say ropes should have been planned/included into the vanilla game from the very beginning. (The same goes with one point slings, smooth/fast weapons transitions from Primary to Secondary, and speed/tactical reloads.)
 
The reason is that a large number of militaries across the world have recognized the importance of this type of knowledge and therefore have at least some sort of formal rope courses included in their most BASIC of military training.  
e.g. If you join the United States Marine Corps or Army, you take a 2 or 3 day rope/ repelling course as part of your Basic Training. (Lenght of training may have changed.)

 

As far as the Raiders go, every branch uses ropes for various things when the situation/mission calls for it, in fact I'd dare to say that the Rangers play with ropes more than the Raiders. 
Ropes are just a specialized piece of gear that is usually included in the planning phase, depending on what the mission/terrain calls for... That way you don't get out there and find yourself having to improvise a rope when you could have just brought one. 
 
The only thing I can think of as far as a specialized group in the USMC pertaining to ropes and movement is HRST Masters (hurst) Helicopter Rope Suspension Training.  That's dealing with SPIE rigging and Fast roping, which are both an awful lot of fun.  :P
In addition there are other types of in depth rope training like during Mountain Leaders Course we had to do an extended course for repelling and rock climbing. 
 
 
Ultimately it should be something that anyone can be equipped with.
I believe engineers carrying a rope would be a fun thing however, I think there needs to be a clear distinction.
 
A rope used for climbing would not / Should not be used for towing a vehicle except in the most dire of circumstances... Mainly because it will probably break pretty quickly. 
 
Tow Ropes are thick, and heavy... They should be included in the inventory of most every vehicles to allow  for towing or rolling up right in the event of an accident. (More compact tow straps would also work) 

 

I agree on this as well, it's not hard to find use for such items, and like any other gear based item, it would be up to the mission maker, and the circumstances the player is likely to encounter to decide weather to bring a rope or not. Which brings me to a more important note, which is Tanoa. Tanoa has jungles, and Jungles, usually have lots of rock faces and interesting area's, hard to reach places. Now, of course, it depends on the how the map is designed, that the environment could be sculpted to add more hard to reach locations. For example, making more far drops would force the player to go around, waste time, or to deploy a rope to save time. That is of course, if the player decided to bring rope in the first place.

 

As for tow ropes, it would probably take far more work than a rope used for rappelling, as i came to realize yesterday that points ropes have to be attached to on a vehicle are more configured for the rope to hook on to. Though, i thought a method could be developed to have a sort of detection when looking to hook a rope on a vehicle, by having a sort of calculation based on where you're looking at on that vehicle (sort of like how Bipods detect where to deploy, same kinda basis but only for vehicles), which is where you would hook the rope to be able to pull it up right. I could be wrong though, and it could be much more complicated. 

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The problem with ropes in arma is that it would highlight armas ridiculous clipping behaviour, you would be glitching around and get stuck all the time...

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The problem with ropes in arma is that it would highlight armas ridiculous clipping behaviour, you would be glitching around and get stuck all the time...

 

the main reason i abandonned my experiments in that department. in the video he climbs straight down from an overhang without wall contact. which is easy to do. anything that involves contact is really hard to make work well. add climbing upwards close and hitting a small edge and you get all kinds of problems. but that is also mainly due to how it works with those physX ropes. i think in PR the rope basically freezes on contact which is what makes it actually work imho. physX are great on paper but in this situation a great source of glitchiness.

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the main reason i abandonned my experiments in that department. in the video he climbs straight down from an overhang without wall contact. which is easy to do. anything that involves contact is really hard to make work well. add climbing upwards close and hitting a small edge and you get all kinds of problems. but that is also mainly due to how it works with those physX ropes. i think in PR the rope basically freezes on contact which is what makes it actually work imho. physX are great on paper but in this situation a great source of glitchiness.

Though, in the context of Arma, I'm guessing that contact and physics are mainly a problem due to the fact Arma's engine wasn't specifically built to even handle those things properly. In that respect, there were sort of, added onto the engine, and probably made to work, "well enough". So I'm guessing in a stable environment, even if the proper animations were there, a player could still, be unable to as send up the side of a building using rope, due to glitchyness between the players model and the wall, and with a mix of physics in there. As for rappeling, I would imagine it to be more forgiving, given the cliff or object hangs over and not next to the wall. However in the video, it appears he sort of bumped the wall thus moving him a big, and it didn't look entirely too glitchy... My question is though, who made that feature? I suppose asking them would get a little better insight on the matter.

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Though, in the context of Arma, I'm guessing that contact and physics are mainly a problem due to the fact Arma's engine wasn't specifically built to even handle those things properly. In that respect, there were sort of, added onto the engine, and probably made to work, "well enough". So I'm guessing in a stable environment, even if the proper animations were there, a player could still, be unable to as send up the side of a building using rope, due to glitchyness between the players model and the wall, and with a mix of physics in there. As for rappeling, I would imagine it to be more forgiving, given the cliff or object hangs over and not next to the wall. However in the video, it appears he sort of bumped the wall thus moving him a big, and it didn't look entirely too glitchy... My question is though, who made that feature? I suppose asking them would get a little better insight on the matter.

 

hm. i wouldn't say proper collision is a specific feature since it's kind of the very basics of what a 3d game needs to even function. arma might have such problems with it due to scale or something. like having to spread out accuracy. but that's just a vague theory.

 

the problem with basing everythign on physics alone is that we're obviously not dealing with reality. so if you get stuck on an edge while climbing upwards there need to be some elaborate methods to counter that. i found that my climbing od helped at times when i made tests but overall the problem was that the rope has to use a certain physX lod for collision ( i think) which means it can hang through certain parts of for example the edge of a roof basically making you climb upwards into that edge hittign yur head getting stuck there.

 

i think a pseudo physical solution would be much better. liek having the throw based on physics but then as described have the rope freeze (atleast where it has wall contact) and then create some kind of path from that. i dunno. it's easy to make work but very tricky to make work nicely.

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hm. i wouldn't say proper collision is a specific feature since it's kind of the very basics of what a 3d game needs to even function. arma might have such problems with it due to scale or something. like having to spread out accuracy. but that's just a vague theory.

 

the problem with basing everythign on physics alone is that we're obviously not dealing with reality. so if you get stuck on an edge while climbing upwards there need to be some elaborate methods to counter that. i found that my climbing od helped at times when i made tests but overall the problem was that the rope has to use a certain physX lod for collision ( i think) which means it can hang through certain parts of for example the edge of a roof basically making you climb upwards into that edge hittign yur head getting stuck there.

 

i think a pseudo physical solution would be much better. liek having the throw based on physics but then as described have the rope freeze (atleast where it has wall contact) and then create some kind of path from that. i dunno. it's easy to make work but very tricky to make work nicely.

Or how about only freezing the segments near the edge, thus to allow the ability to get up and over, while still maintaining physics on the rest of the rope, to keep it authentic.

 

Speaking of which, if anyone can help me find the guy, who made that rope mod, it would be helpful. Maybe we can get some more insight into it.

 

EDIT: I found something!

 

Appears to be in need of proper climbing ascending/descending animati----

 

 

Nvm. It just needs tweaking. I mean it's pretty damned good. Someone needs to give this modder some cookies. IRL.

 

Now i'm not sure if it's the same guy who made this mod that's in Frankie's video... But having a look at this footage, and comparing it to the one in Frankie's video... The on in Frankie's video appears to be actually finalized, and fully functional rappelling. There doesn't seem to be a single issue. The rope is where it should be on the player, it moves, it's quite seamless. Idk guys, it looks pretty nifty.

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looks almost identical to what i had. you can see really well what i was describing. like the rope goes through the edge of those VR boxes.

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P.s. Frankie is also using badbenson enhanched movement mod (which btw would make a3 movement perfect if it wasnt for apparent engine limitations).

For me, since i am used to the glitches, and arma allways have had that feeling of fu*ked up movement as premise for its experience (ever played quake1 and ofp on the same day?), hookmods and climbing mods are a RELATIVE improvement over the vanilla state, but its far from beeng so polished that you could sell it as "regular" or even "good" system to someone unfamilar with arma, and without developer commitment to the poblem it seems near impossible to get done, maybe BI should make something like a special event week where they sit down with the top 3-5 unfinishable mods makers and try to get things done.

(i love the arma 3 stance and freelook systems those are some of the best innovations for tactical shooters imho)

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(i love the arma 3 stance and freelook systems those are some of the best innovations for tactical shooters imho)

Agreed. I was thinking maybe sometime in the future BIS could look at the problems limiting the mods and try to fix them. It would not only fix the issues the mods have due to the engine, but the engine itself. Though, the thing is, the mods in his video when he goes down the rock face, appears to be the final version. I could only assume that he couldn't climb back up because of how glitchy it would be. Allowing only the ability to rappel downwards, i'd have to say is good enough. Though, i imagine that as Bad_Benson stated, the edge of objects does continue to not look the best. I'm not too worried about the corner of the wall though, mainly because the rest of it functions so well. 

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I'm not too worried about the corner of the wall though, mainly because the rest of it functions so well. 

 

yea but that is the moment you get stuck unless you also have a climbing system to overcome that.

 

 

P.s. Frankie is also using badbenson enhanched movement mod (which btw would make a3 movement perfect if it wasnt for apparent engine limitations).

 

well it's also pretty flawed since i'm a self taught scripting noob. i also had to rush it out due to the contest. so it's not only arma's fault if something goes wrong lol. but i'm working on it again to make it much more solid.

 

biggest problem is models missing the lod that determines on what surface you can walk on. i should really make a list so BIS can get their modellers fixing that. an example are those prettier rocks you can find on Altis. opposed to the uglier ones those have no roadway lod which makes it impossible to walk on them. which is totally inconsistent and annoying.

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biggest problem is models missing the lod that determines on what surface you can walk on. i should really make a list so BIS can get their modellers fixing that.

 

Arma, the game where you can walk through the engine hood of a tank but that leaves you paralyzed if your gun barrel just slightly touches a door frame :D

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Or how about only freezing the segments near the edge, thus to allow the ability to get up and over, while still maintaining physics on the rest of the rope, to keep it authentic.

 

Speaking of which, if anyone can help me find the guy, who made that rope mod, it would be helpful. Maybe we can get some more.

 

Nvm. It just needs tweaking. I mean it's pretty damned good. Someone needs to give this modder some cookies. IRL.

 

Now i'm not sure if it's the same guy who made this mod that's in Frankie's video... But having a look at this footage, and comparing it to the one in Frankie's video... The on in Frankie's video appears to be actually finalized, and fully functional rappelling. There doesn't seem to be a single issue. The rope is where it should be on the player, it moves, it's quite seamless. Idk guys, it looks pretty nifty.

I had started fiddling with the scripting , then saw that video. It does look good... I think for buildings it may work fairly well...

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I had started fiddling with the scripting , then saw that video. It does look good... I think for buildings it may work fairly well...

I really want to try it out, but i can't find the mod anywhere. Maybe he's still working on it, that or i have no idea. Would be great to do a series of tests with it.

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