AI discussion [Any Branch]

[cosmic10r 2320]

I started muddying the water in dev branch ai discussion thread and it was getting confusing. So this thread is for General Ai discussion on any branch.

 

As KeyCat requested please post

 

-Build #

-AI settings

-relevant AI mods active

 

I just want to thank Greenfist for the continued mission development. It has been extremely fun using it to test the various aspects of the AI.

 

The long term goal would be to help narrow down some desired changes to AI through testing. In any case... These two videos display some of the differences we are talking about...

So the main thing I'm looking at now is trying to take the two scenarios and narrow down what i modified ages ago in the settings and then get that working. 

I would love to see the first video reaction for a silenced shot and say a slightly less "uber human" reaction to non silenced shots. 

 

========================================================================

This Video uses a modified AceAi .pbo

 

 

 

========================================================================

This Video uses default vanilla Arma.

 

[msy 22]

AI should follow me when I want them to retreat.

When I order them `-2-1 (no target) , They should return to aware stance rather than danger stance.

command list for x-1-x has too many redundant lists that nearly no one will use x-1-2~x-1-5 to order AI, and x-1-6 is so same as x-1-7. So I think BIS should add some more useful command lists to replace them, such as: RETREAT ( run away from the battle zone following with leader), RUSH (run to the waypoint), etc.

[cosmic10r 2320]

AI should follow me when I want them to retreat.

When I order them `-2-1 (no target) , They should return to aware stance rather than danger stance.

command list for x-1-x has too many redundant lists that nearly no one will use x-1-2~x-1-5 to order AI, and x-1-6 is so same as x-1-7. So I think BIS should add some more useful command lists to replace them, such as: RETREAT ( run away from the battle zone following with leader), RUSH (run to the waypoint), etc.

I believe Bis has acknowledged the need for a commandRun command altho I don't know if it has been confirmed as being worked on...

I tested some Long distance with Greenfist's new mission today.

===========================================================================================================

Default AI

Novice Preset

Main Branch - i reverted to play on our server

Silenced

-the mission now shows distance to target in the info box

===========================================================================================================

Default AI

Expert Preset - wanted to check if they gained more target knowledge on a higher setting if rifle was unsilenced... answer... NO at 1200m but seems like yes at 230 ish m

Main Branch - i reverted to play on our server

unSilenced

-the mission now shows distance to target in the info box

===========================================================================================================

from the knowsabout wiki

It is still true, that the command returns values between 0 (lowest) and 4 (most). Freshly Spotted units will have at least 1.5, slowly decreasing when the target disappeared. The following Table shows my test results on a clear day at Takistan using the Vector. Please note that the returned values vary considerably depending on weather and time. Moonlight however seems to not have any considerable effect. 12:00, sunlight, clear sky Distance knowsAbout

The table on the Wiki is interesting

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/knowsAbout

===========================================================================================================

Notes from before the conversion: With Resistance (1.91): No matter what class of unit the target is and no matter what the skill/class of the enemy AI, the magic 'knowsAbout' number is 0.105. With CWC (1.46): No matter what class of unit the target is and no matter what the skill/class of the enemy AI, the magic 'knowsAbout' number is 0.7. What this means is, the AI will not fire on an enemy soldier until his 'knowsAbout' level of that enemy has reached the 'magic number' or higher. This suggests that the knowsabout level must reach the magic threshold before a unit knows if another unit is an enemy or a friendly unit. Triggers and knowsabout level: "Detected by xxx" triggers also follow the above rules. For a detected trigger to be set off, the knowsAbout level must reach the magic number. Also... As soon as An AI unit gets hit with a bullet his knowsAbout level for the unit that shot him will instantly jump to 1.5, even if the shooter is 1000m away. Vice versa is also true. If An AI soldier's knowsAbout level for an enemy is 0.7 and the soldier fires and hits the enemy, his knowsAbout level about the enemy will instantly jump to 1.5. Some editors have found, whilst using this command over the years, that the following characteristics have cropped up: AI enemies have a very limited amount of peripheral vision, it's not nearly as good as a human player's. A target must be in front of the unit for him to be noticed, so if you sprint right behind an enemy, this value doesn't increase. Depending on the units skill level, it can take a little time for the unit to notice a target. So if you run right past a unit, this value might not increase. Bushes between the unit and the target seem to have little effect on this value, and trees definitely have no affect. You may be in a forest, and can't see the unit, but he can see you. MP Note knowsAbout returns a viable result only if left-hand parameter unit is local.

=============================================================================================================

The knowsAbout level only gets to 1.5 here... so that differs a little from those tests that were done in OA in the wiki as the AI gains 1.5 knowsAbout at both distances

The second video also features Solano's RealShade preset ;)

[msy 22]

AI is so professional to locate your position by the bullet which hit him or one of them, which means, if you shoot at AI (not hit him) , he or his group need some time to find you by sound or point of bullet contact, however, if you shoot and directly hit AI, he and his group will quickly find your position, even you are 1KM away from him or you are in Ghillie Suit on the grass or you are hiding in the building or the time is dark.

[cool=azroul13 14]

Is the "knowsabout" command still usefull ?

[mamasan8 11]

AI is so professional to locate your position by the bullet which hit him or one of them, which means, if you shoot at AI (not hit him) , he or his group need some time to find you by sound or point of bullet contact, however, if you shoot and directly hit AI, he and his group will quickly find your position, even you are 1KM away from him or you are in Ghillie Suit on the grass or you are hiding in the building or the time is dark.

This is true even with a silenced sniper-rifle, silly stuff.

 

What AI soldiers could and should do is move in formations. A couple are tasked with providing cover around corners, a few advance slowly etc.

So much that can be done. If AI was more tactical I wouldn't have to place down 200 enemies on the map to get challenged.

AI don't call arty-strikes. AI arty tanks seem to do a lot of nothing. Planes suck, floating in the air at 200m, not even trying to avoid enemy fire very much. Flying targets. Choppers suck too. Would be better if they entered an area (seek and destroy-wp) at lower altitude and slowly fly forward instead of fullspeed at 200m altitude and die in a fire.

 

Calling in an airplane to drop a bomb...what can I say...do they HAVE to circle around the area for 5 mins before they actually drop the bomb? Sigh...

 

 

Even if these things got fixed, improved, the game still runs as a turd. A more tactical turd is not really an improvement.

Work on performance, then worry about the other shit.

[rübe 127]

AI is so professional to locate your position by the bullet which hit him or one of them, which means, if you shoot at AI (not hit him) , he or his group need some time to find you by sound or point of bullet contact, however, if you shoot and directly hit AI, he and his group will quickly find your position, even you are 1KM away from him or you are in Ghillie Suit on the grass or you are hiding in the building or the time is dark.

 

Well. A bullet that impacts somewhere near you might have come from pretty much anywhere. A bullet that hits you right in your butt does carry a bit more information, now doesn't it?

But I agree, that information is gathered, processed and distributed to group members way too quickly and reliably.

[cosmic10r 2320]

knowsAbout is part of the puzzle I think...

I did some testing to see how the knowledge is communicated over distance between group members

==================================================================================

Something weird with the sound in video...

[cosmic10r 2320]

Okay I figured out the sound thing.

 

This was interesting... I got caught up watching what the AI was doing a couple of times.

The 2 units are grouped and 550ish m apart.

 

===========================================================================

-Default Ai

-Main Branch

-Skill slider set to 1.0

 

[rübe 127]

This was interesting... I got caught up watching what the AI was doing a couple of times.

The 2 units are grouped and 550ish m apart.

Nice minimal setup. So it looks like:

• The moment a single unit spots an enemy, all unit in the group are informed that there is an enemy around - immediately, but...
• ...each unit has to individually spot/see the enemy.

While this is rather reasonable, I do see a problem with the first point: team members should really not be informed/alarmed the moment the detecting unit gains knowledge about an enemy. There needs to be a timeframe where such a unit can be taken out without having the rest of that units group be alarmed. Granted, we can argue that a unit gone missing (radio silence for too long) will still cause an alert state of the whole group, but that'd take even longer.

 

Maybe there should be an indirect messaging system that notifies the rest of the group after some delay, but can be cancelled in case the sender is dead in the meantime. Similarly one could have a second message with an even larger delay, that can be cancled by recieving the first message (i.e. only fires if the unit is indeed dead and went missing). And that just for knowledge sharing. Usual AI commanding would not be affected by such a tweak. And then, ideally, such communications would be tied to animations, where we could actually see/observe the AI from making these "crucial" radio calls (and prevent them from doing so in the first place).

 

Finally there should be means of linking up different groups, s.t. they can share knowledge too.

[cosmic10r 2320]

It's a good point....

One thing to note and I can show a video on this later.... if u kill the unit clean the other AI doesn't gain any knowledge unless they witness the death... was testing that last night too

[cosmic10r 2320]

Nice minimal setup. So it looks like:

• The moment a single unit spots an enemy, all unit in the group are informed that there is an enemy around - immediately, but...
• ...each unit has to individually spot/see the enemy.

While this is rather reasonable, I do see a problem with the first point: team members should really not be informed/alarmed the moment the detecting unit gains knowledge about an enemy. There needs to be a timeframe where such a unit can be taken out without having the rest of that units group be alarmed. Granted, we can argue that a unit gone missing (radio silence for too long) will still cause an alert state of the whole group, but that'd take even longer.

Maybe there should be an indirect messaging system that notifies the rest of the group after some delay, but can be cancelled in case the sender is dead in the meantime. Similarly one could have a second message with an even larger delay, that can be cancled by recieving the first message (i.e. only fires if the unit is indeed dead and went missing). And that just for knowledge sharing. Usual AI commanding would not be affected by such a tweak. And then, ideally, such communications would be tied to animations, where we could actually see/observe the AI from making these "crucial" radio calls (and prevent them from doing so in the first place).

Finally there should be means of linking up different groups, s.t. they can share knowledge too.

Super hacky 5 min job... but wanted to see if I could manipulate it. The ai should go to cover and be crouched while checking the radio but you get the idea... hopefully...

[pulstar 55]

 

Calling in an airplane to drop a bomb...what can I say...do they HAVE to circle around the area for 5 mins before they actually drop the bomb? Sigh...

 

 

Even if these things got fixed, improved, the game still runs as a turd. A more tactical turd is not really an improvement.

Work on performance, then worry about the other shit.

 

Have you had any luck with gunship pilots not flying flyovers on hot zones and getting ripped to shreds by any form of cannon (heck even jets get taken down by tanks and APCs).. I could have sworn the pilots worked for a while on my setup, taking their time to strafe enemy formations, but seems it's defaulted to kamikaze again.. Mechanized AI is also atrocious, the gunner can take out hordes of footmobiles in seconds, but engaging armor can take too many precious seconds. Drivers like to wander around like troll Battlefield players, and commanders never pop smoke. To get the most of this game, humans have to crew everything :(

[Tyl3r99 41]

jesus... in the 2nd video... it was like yeah i see you in that bush with a silenced rifle...

 

BIS please.... lol 

[Olympi 2]

As I cannot create a proper thread, I hope we can talk about AI in any branch and any Add-on in this thread.

 

I have played arma for 6 months in Coop against AI and we played mission where AI is sometimes 10 times more than us. I began to Game Mastering and was desesperate by the AI level.

So i thought let's try some AI mod, there descriptions seam promising...

 

Here the results in videos.

Country Side:

Urban Warfare:

 

I'm looking at the combat behaviour of the units and at the squad tactic, that why the tests are very minimal.

Here my general observations for most of the AI mod:

- Under fire, they lie on the ground and star firing, instead of fall back and take cover (it's like there life have no value, or fleeing is not one of there possibilities)

- they're taking bad cover if any, like bush or road-sign (do they understand the differences ?)

- stay in column or cut the fire line

- there is no CQB formation, and so get a little lost in the city trying to respect there reverse-V default formation, and in combat get killed one by one.

 

That make me sad, make me thing there is a issue in the Arma AI engine so no AI mod can change basic combat behaviour.

 

I think the formation should be ordered by the squad leader instead of the waypoint, and he should make teams. With that AI can creates some tactics (like human do).

 

For the tests results : Vanilla (balanced), bCombat (aggressive, covering each other), ASR AI 3 (stay still in country, but good in urban).

The others : disqualified.

 

Tests done with : CBA and the add-on, two Assault squads spawn with the mission editor, waypoint Move with default values, that it.

[KeyCat 131]

Good thread Cosmic and nice videos as usual!

 

-Build #

-AI settings

-relevant AI mods active

 

Just wanted to clarify about the AI settings. The skill slider settings in the editor is obvious but whats often missed are the skillAI and precisionAI settings in the <your_user_name>. ArmA3Profile file and that is very relevant if we should be able to compare apples to apples :)

 

The section in the file looks like below and beware there are separate settings for what difficulty level you selected in game options, i.e recruit, regular, veteran and mercenary.

 

...

    class veteran
    {
        class Flags
        {
            HUD=0;
            HUDWp=1;
            HUDWpPerm=0;
            HUDGroupInfo=0;
            AutoSpot=0;
            WeaponCursor=1;
            ClockIndicator=0;
            3rdPersonView=1;
            UltraAI=0;
            CameraShake=1;
            DeathMessages=0;
            NetStats=0;
            VonID=0;
            ExtendetInfoType=0;
            StanceIndicator=1;
        };
        aiLevelPreset=3;
        skillAI=0.5;
        precisionAI=0.34999999;
    };

...

 

 

/KC

[cosmic10r 2320]

As I cannot create a proper thread, I hope we can talk about AI in any branch and any Add-on in this thread.

 

I have played arma for 6 months in Coop against AI and we played mission where AI is sometimes 10 times more than us. I began to Game Mastering and was desesperate by the AI level.

So i thought let's try some AI mod, there descriptions seam promising...

 

Here the results in videos.

 

I'm looking at the combat behaviour of the units and at the squad tactic, that why the tests are very minimal.

Here my general observations for most of the AI mod:

- Under fire, they lie on the ground and star firing, instead of fall back and take cover (it's like there life have no value, or fleeing is not one of there possibilities)

- they're taking bad cover if any, like bush or road-sign (do they understand the differences ?)

- stay in column or cut the fire line

- there is no CQB formation, and so get a little lost in the city trying to respect there reverse-V default formation, and in combat get killed one by one.

 

That make me sad, make me thing there is a issue in the Arma AI engine so no AI mod can change basic combat behaviour.

 

I think the formation should be ordered by the squad leader instead of the waypoint, and he should make teams. With that AI can creates some tactics (like human do).

 

For the tests results : Vanilla (balanced), bCombat (aggressive, covering each other), ASR AI 3 (stay still in country, but good in urban).

The others : disqualified.

 

Tests done with : CBA and the add-on, two Assault squads spawn with the mission editor, waypoint Move with default values, that it.

 

Yes... this thread was made for discussing AI in any branch with any mod so that the DEV branch would be\could be easier to navigate, especially for the devs looking for feedback on specific changes they had implemented.

As you have done, everyone please state parameters of test :)

 

There are some issues that need to be addressed with the behaviour but I would not go as far as to say it is impossible. The AI mods are also dealing with the native BIS combat fsm or rewriting it and both those routes can contain issues.

The AI mod writers have done a great job in each of their respective mods. I have also done what you did and have countless hours on a test mission on Takistan where I have essentially run the same test on every iteration of every AI mod that has come out and it seems like every step involves a compromise in another area. 

 

There were nights where Mikey and I were on steam and I was testing a new version, god... felt like every 30 mins for 12 hours lol.... 

 

 

I think the formation should be ordered by the squad leader instead of the waypoint, and he should make teams. With that AI can creates some tactics (like human do).

 

Thats an interesting idea... I like it. Let me think on that.

 

Good thread Cosmic and nice videos as usual!

 

 

Just wanted to clarify about the AI settings. The skill slider settings in the editor is obvious but whats often missed are the skillAI and precisionAI settings in the <your_user_name>. ArmA3Profile file and that is very relevant if we should be able to compare apples to apples :)

 

The section in the file looks like below and beware there are separate settings for what difficulty level you selected in game options, i.e recruit, regular, veteran and mercenary.

 

 

 

/KC

 

Thanks :)

 

I had a look in there and this is what I have

Is it normal for the skillAI and precisionAI to only be in one of the presets?

 

 

class recruit

{

class Flags

{

Armor=1;

FriendlyTag=1;

EnemyTag=0;

MineTag=1;

HUD=1;

HUDPerm=1;

HUDWp=1;

HUDWpPerm=1;

HUDGroupInfo=1;

StanceIndicator=1;

AutoSpot=1;

Map=1;

WeaponCursor=1;

AutoGuideAT=1;

ClockIndicator=1;

3rdPersonView=1;

CameraShake=0;

UnlimitedSaves=1;

DeathMessages=1;

NetStats=1;

VonID=1;

};

aiLevelPreset=0;

};

class regular

{

class Flags

{

Armor=1;

FriendlyTag=1;

EnemyTag=0;

MineTag=1;

HUD=1;

HUDPerm=1;

HUDWp=1;

HUDWpPerm=1;

HUDGroupInfo=1;

StanceIndicator=1;

AutoSpot=1;

Map=1;

WeaponCursor=1;

ClockIndicator=1;

3rdPersonView=1;

CameraShake=1;

UnlimitedSaves=0;

DeathMessages=1;

NetStats=1;

VonID=1;

};

aiLevelPreset=3;

skillAI=1;

precisionAI=1;

};

class veteran

{

class Flags

{

HUD=1;

HUDWp=1;

HUDWpPerm=1;

HUDGroupInfo=1;

StanceIndicator=1;

AutoSpot=1;

WeaponCursor=1;

ClockIndicator=1;

3rdPersonView=1;

CameraShake=1;

DeathMessages=1;

NetStats=1;

VonID=0;

};

aiLevelPreset=2;

};

class mercenary

{

class Flags

{

HUD=1;

AutoSpot=0;

WeaponCursor=1;

DeathMessages=1;

NetStats=1;

VonID=0;

};

aiLevelPreset=2;

};

};

[msy 22]

@cosmic10r

Have you tested AI with your grenade launcher? No matter how far away from the AI or how many blocks are there between you and AI, the AI can always know your direction, And then you teleport yourself to the AI's back at a distance of hundreds meters and no blocks between you and AI, the AI can just take seconds to lock on you.

[KeyCat 131]

Is it normal for the skillAI and precisionAI to only be in one of the presets?

 

You have to add them manually and I have added them in all preset.

 

/KC

[cosmic10r 2320]

@cosmic10r

Have you tested AI with your grenade launcher? No matter how far away from the AI or how many blocks are there between you and AI, the AI can always know your direction, And then you teleport yourself to the AI's back at a distance of hundreds meters and no blocks between you and AI, the AI can just take seconds to lock on you.

  

Do you mean after u shoot them with a GL they never lose knowledge of you ??

You have to add them manually and I have added them in all preset.

 

/KC

Ahhh... that's odd... I wonder why they needed to be added manually... will do tho and see what happens ...

[mikey74 168]

#Olympi "I think the formation should be ordered by the squad leader instead of the waypoint, and he should make teams. With that AI can creates some tactics (like human do)."

 

Yes. Sometimes certain formations are useless in certain situations, or less effective. I tried to fix this, but its either hard coded or beyond my knowledge at this point. As for creating formations which is the rout I was taking at the time of FOA. An Example: What use is a line formation in the middle of a town. Another example. Lines are great for open fields with enemies directly in front. AI should be able to issues a command to change form depending on situation. This can be coded in, but can be difficult and tedious. BUT now that an idea has formed while I write this gripe........ I may look into this if I make another AI mod. Cause this can be done.

[cosmic10r 2320]

#Olympi "I think the formation should be ordered by the squad leader instead of the waypoint, and he should make teams. With that AI can creates some tactics (like human do).[/size]"

 

Yes. Sometimes certain formations are useless in certain situations, or less effective. I tried to fix this, but its either hard coded or beyond my knowledge at this point. As for creating formations which is the rout I was taking at the time of FOA. An Example: What use is a line formation in the middle of a town. Another example. Lines are great for open fields with enemies directly in front. AI should be able to issues a command to change form depending on situation. This can be coded in, but can be difficult and tedious. BUT now that an idea has formed while I write this gripe........ I may look into this if I make another AI mod. Cause this can be done.

What is all this... if stuff

:p

I'm sure you mean when.....

[aimgame 5]

Hi! i cant make new posts so im asking u guys in this thread. Im trying to make AutoGuideAT work on my server...  I've looked here - https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Difficulty_Menu , and configured my config.Arma3Profile properly. Difficulty is set to "recruit", so option AutoGuideAT = 1 should work, but it doesn't! I've tried it with all difficulties... same result. AutoGuideAT = 1 only works in my Virtual editor... Can someone please tell me, if there is anywhere else this option must be typed? Or probably i did something wrong... 

P.S. I have infistar installed, but i've already tried to disable it and still no changes...

P.P.S. Pard my english:)

[pd3 25]

I spoke too soon about this update not having anything complaint-worthy. 1.52

It seems as if something's been done to the AI that has made using any map using legacy architecture/buildings apparently see-through.

Three times now I've been basically "wallhacked" by on terrains that use legacy Armed Assault/A2 style buildings. In each specific case there was no way the AI could have seen me openly exposed, and simply started firing as if they had a clear, unobstructed view.

Not only that, but it seems now that where previously bullets would not penetrate those legacy buildings at all, they now seem to.

Not sure why this was necessary but it's doing more harm than good IMO.


Also with regard to the video showcasing the vanilla AI, not to be an ass, but what are the devs thinking?

This is reminiscent of the guy who wrote Quake 2's eraserbot AI and the devs of some game he was hired on to work with were like "You gotta tone it down, real human beings are playing this".

It's the antithesis of fun to play against AI when each and every one of them are like the synths from Blade Runner in their ability.

[bad benson 1733]

I spoke too soon about this update not having anything complaint-worthy. 1.52

It seems as if something's been done to the AI that has made using any map using legacy architecture/buildings apparently see-through.

Three times now I've been basically "wallhacked" by on terrains that use legacy Armed Assault/A2 style buildings. In each specific case there was no way the AI could have seen me openly exposed, and simply started firing as if they had a clear, unobstructed view.

Not only that, but it seems now that where previously bullets would not penetrate those legacy buildings at all, they now seem to.

 

i experienced the same. wasn't attributing it to the patch but since the buildings you speak of haven't been updated, it makes total sense.