RHS Escalation (AFRF and USAF)

[galzohar 31]

The reason for needing Play withSIX is that people are already managing large mod packs on Play withSIX with automatic updates, and adding another tool to update another mod in a way that won't be recognized by Play withSIX and will have to be worked around in order to get it runnign along with Play withSIX mods is just too much for people who hardly have a clue what a mod is, and worse, is just too much for the few people who need to help all those who can't get things working.

Getting it on PWS means I can use it on the server and have the entire community have the correct version without them having to do anything different than they are already doing. This is a very big thing. It was hard enough to get them to get Play withSIX working, there is no way I would be requiring people to to anything beyond that to get their mods running, and especially not something as complicated as mixing Play withSIX mods with non-Play withSIX mods. If I do that, it will just result in people refusing to use any mods altogether, or just not playing on the server.

I'm sure if you're just slightly determined you can work something out with the Play withSIX and Armaholic guys to have it available there, and save everyone a lot of trouble.

[beaar 78]

The reason for needing Play withSIX is that people are already managing large mod packs on Play withSIX with automatic updates, and adding another tool to update another mod in a way that won't be recognized by Play withSIX and will have to be worked around in order to get it runnign along with Play withSIX mods is just too much for people who hardly have a clue what a mod is, and worse, is just too much for the few people who need to help all those who can't get things working.

Getting it on PWS means I can use it on the server and have the entire community have the correct version without them having to do anything different than they are already doing. This is a very big thing. It was hard enough to get them to get Play withSIX working, there is no way I would be requiring people to to anything beyond that to get their mods running, and especially not something as complicated as mixing Play withSIX mods with non-Play withSIX mods. If I do that, it will just result in people refusing to use any mods altogether, or just not playing on the server.

Pretty sure it's possible to host the beta files on your own FTP and distribute it through your PW6 repository?

[galzohar 31]

Maybe... But it's more work, more money, and more complications to deal with. With current method we use I only have to host 2 text files with a list of mods and give people a click-able link and they have everything they need. The click-able link may be do-able too, but it would still require to have additional hosting, bandwidth, etc on top of needing to deal with the technical side.

[maturin 12]

Is it intended behavior that the default zeroing of the AK-74M is 440m? And then when you increase the zeroing, it goes to 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m, 500m, etc.

[PuFu 4591]

So, reading through this whole beta discussion I just want to clarify some things:

• RHS will remain permanently in "beta" (whatever that means in this context)?
  
• If yes, will the PWS version receive any future updates or will all updates be via the FTP?
  

a) it depends what you consider beta. For me (and here i speak only for myself), beta means inbetween milestones set by RHS team, work in progress branch. By no mean it means it's untested, or it is full of unfinished stuff or unworking features. To answer your question, beta means progress as in being worked on, so yes, for as long as possible RHS wants to add and improve its mod.

b) when certain milestones are reached, the mod will be released as "stable".

c) there was, at some point in time, the possibility to have a longer period between release dates, and have only the "stable" builds released out, without the beta releases. But that would mean a longer waiting time for most of you out there, since the milestones would not change. and by longer i mean 3-6months depending on a lot of factors.

We are not in charge of the PWS, or the content it is stored there. If PWS admins choose to use the beta builds and store it, that's up to them, not with us. There is no restriction afaik on them getting the beta the same way everyone does and create a new repository, parallel to the existing one.

The reason for needing Play withSIX is that people are already managing large mod packs on Play withSIX with automatic updates, and adding another tool to update another mod in a way that won't be recognized by Play withSIX and will have to be worked around in order to get it runnign along with Play withSIX mods is just too much for people who hardly have a clue what a mod is, and worse, is just too much for the few people who need to help all those who can't get things working.

again, my own 2 cents here, not the RHS as a team: You are telling me nothing new, i haven't been around this community since yesterday.

It isn't one mods fault or another for the fact that BI cannot create a proper way to synk files without the need of an external party. It is also not RHS or another mod fault the end user is ignorant in the vast majority (i give you the fact that for a game that relies of 3rd party addons and mods, this should have been made easier for everyone, and should have been implemented in the game)

PWS is great and has a lot of users. But you need to understand we have nothing to do with PWS. If PWS chooses to update their repro approximately each month, that's up to them.

Getting it on PWS means I can use it on the server and have the entire community have the correct version without them having to do anything different than they are already doing. This is a very big thing. It was hard enough to get them to get Play withSIX working, there is no way I would be requiring people to to anything beyond that to get their mods running, and especially not something as complicated as mixing Play withSIX mods with non-Play withSIX mods. If I do that, it will just result in people refusing to use any mods altogether, or just not playing on the server.

again, nothing new. But you are looking at this only from the perspective of the user, not the creator. SA put a lot of time to create an automation tool that would do it in 5mins instead of 1 day. The same awesome tools that allows us to create and push a new build for internal testing is used for public betas...

I'm sure if you're just slightly determined you can work something out with the Play withSIX and Armaholic guys to have it available there, and save everyone a lot of trouble.

No one is stopping either of those to get the files up. What is there to "work something" out

Maybe... But it's more work, more money, and more complications to deal with. With current method we use I only have to host 2 text files with a list of mods and give people a click-able link and they have everything they need. The click-able link may be do-able too, but it would still require to have additional hosting, bandwidth, etc on top of needing to deal with the technical side.

So your work, number of possible fuckups you need to deal with, time and money is more important than say...anyone from RHS team? I was under the impression there was a lot of work already being done, was i mistaken?

Edited February 22, 2015 by PuFu

[megazogg 14]

The reason for needing Play withSIX is that people are already managing large mod packs on Play withSIX with automatic updates, and adding another tool to update another mod in a way that won't be recognized by Play withSIX and will have to be worked around in order to get it runnign along with Play withSIX mods is just too much for people who hardly have a clue what a mod is, and worse, is just too much for the few people who need to help all those who can't get things working.

Getting it on PWS means I can use it on the server and have the entire community have the correct version without them having to do anything different than they are already doing. This is a very big thing. It was hard enough to get them to get Play withSIX working, there is no way I would be requiring people to to anything beyond that to get their mods running, and especially not something as complicated as mixing Play withSIX mods with non-Play withSIX mods. If I do that, it will just result in people refusing to use any mods altogether, or just not playing on the server.

I'm sure if you're just slightly determined you can work something out with the Play withSIX and Armaholic guys to have it available there, and save everyone a lot of trouble.

So, people are indeed lazy in general, don't they? :) And how it is the problem of RHS if people can't manage to go into their Arma 3 folder, open each of two RHS:E beta folders and double click on updater icon? This mod is not a commercial product, guys from RHS do this for free and in their free time, which I presume they don't have much as they all are adults, who have their jobs to work on & families to take care of and spent time with.

Yet you suggest to them to spent some amount of their free time to pack the each new "stable" version of the mod, upload it on to Six, then Armaholic (because not all of players use Six, or even Armaholic, I am sure that some will want to have the mod on Steam Workshop after some time), then take their time to write about it here, at the same time they still have to manage current beta version of the mod, just that some people can play the mod without bothering themselves much?

Besides, in what particular way using RHS:E beta autoupdater interfere with the need of managing other mods from Six? I myself use Six for keeping various mods up to date and also use Arma 3 native launcher to manage active mods and their load order and have no problem with it. And by the way you told in your post above about people from your community, I made an impression that they are not that much interested in playing RHS mod, so why force them?

IMO it is more logical to spent all this time to actually do something more useful for the mod, like making new models, textures, codding and other similar things? Or simply have a break and enjoy their evening?

---------- Post added at 01:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 AM ----------

Is it intended behavior that the default zeroing of the AK-74M is 440m? And then when you increase the zeroing, it goes to 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m, 500m, etc.

440m is the default zeroing of AK-74 IRL, as I am aware.

[soul_assassin 1723]

No i refuse to accept this And hold you personally responsible for not encouraging your community to be alittle more open minded. instead of helping us deliver better content tou suggest we have to waste time on lazy users even when there is a perfectly simple solution in place:

http://www.rhsmods.org/beta

If you search "rhs beta" there are literally videos that are 1 MINUTE 42 SECONDS long that show you how to use it.

Lets put it this way. We'll prepare the food, we'll make the plate, we'll even bring it to the table, all of it for free but we insist that you at least try to use your own hand to operate the fork.

[maturin 12]

440m is the default zeroing of AK-74 IRL, as I am aware.

Got it. But once you change the zeroing, you can't get it back to 440m. This makes it seem like a bug. Also you have to press Up to get the zeroing go down, to 100m.

[PuFu 4591]

First is a bug. The second is engine limitation afaik based on config entry ranges order.

[tachi 10]

@beta discussion - in fact, even the last beta is less of a beta in terms of features and content than the older stable. The thing is, you need to understand that for a mod if this size and scope, the thing will most likely remain a beta, similar (if not better) than arma itself.

The version numbers is very much related to certain internal milestones and set plans. As S.A. said:

a) from a release POV, pushing things out via the beta setup is a lot easier.

b) a quick fix can be pushed just as fast etc

etc.

The fact that it is called BETA has nothing to do with the state of the the content that is released, otherwise the updates would come in multiple time a day.

As SA said before - why does it matter for you how it is called? It is called BETA because it is work in progress. But if we'd call it 0.3.7 it would still be a WIP.

Again, why does it have to be called something different? And it is not called monthly updates for a number of reasons, one of it being there is a desire to release it monthly, but as always there can't be a guarantee about it. So if people are asking for ETAs now, imagine what would happen if the "monthly" date would be pushed, for whatever reason...

ETA is always - when it is done...

Word BETA scares people away, because it's considered as non stable software basically. You can just rename it in something like RC(Release Candidate)

For example you call your version 0.3.5, rename all your BETA versions into 0.3.6 RC, 0.3.7 RC, or just simple 0.3.6, 0.3.7. I don't really see whats the point of releasing betas to the public, and proving that they are more stable and bug free in comparison to the 0.3.5 for example. Why don't just update the mod more often, are the updates really big and that's the point behind it? You don't want people to download updates every month? Are those updates actually that big, so it's hard to download once a month 1gb updates, or are they bigger?

---------- Post added at 04:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 AM ----------

And btw, why you've decided to replace m203 with m320?

[galzohar 31]

If you search "rhs beta" there are literally videos that are 1 MINUTE 42 SECONDS long that show you how to use it.

If only it was just 1 minute 42 seconds. But it's 1 minute 42 seconds times the number of players I'll have to help to do it as well, times the fact that they simply won't get it and have issues that need help resolving, on top of the fact that this comes as an extra to helping them make the whole thing play nicely with all the other mods (and if you've ever helped a noob, you'd know editing a shortcut or even using a launcher is out of the question unless you want to take control of his PC with remote desktop and set it up for him).

I would have expected you guys would have a bit more understanding for how difficult it is to explain to noobs how to setup and install mods.

I also didn't ask for anything more than just trying to talk to the Play withSIX and Armaholic guys to try see if a simple and acceptable solution can be found. I'd spend the time to do this talking myself, but obviously I can't make the decisions for you. Instead of having each involved party say "it's the other guy's responsibility", it would be very much appreciated if you could just try to talk it out and see that maybe there is an easy solution... If an acceptable solution cannot be found then so be it. But just trying to find one is the very least I'd expect.

I really hope that's not too much to ask.

[tachi 10]

And one more question, can you make more open iron sights for M series, current ones are really hard to use, they limit your vision too much. Maybe you can add carry-handle variants, they have pretty nice iron sight.

http://weaponsgradecode.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/001_00021.jpg

[Jona33 51]

And one more question, can you make more open iron sights for M series, current ones are really hard to use, they limit your vision too much. Maybe you can add carry-handle variants, they have pretty nice iron sight.

http://weaponsgradecode.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/001_00021.jpg

The carryhandle sights versions are already in there.

[beaar 78]

If only it was just 1 minute 42 seconds. But it's 1 minute 42 seconds times the number of players I'll have to help to do it as well, times the fact that they simply won't get it and have issues that need help resolving, on top of the fact that this comes as an extra to helping them make the whole thing play nicely with all the other mods (and if you've ever helped a noob, you'd know editing a shortcut or even using a launcher is out of the question unless you want to take control of his PC with remote desktop and set it up for him).

I would have expected you guys would have a bit more understanding for how difficult it is to explain to noobs how to setup and install mods.

I also didn't ask for anything more than just trying to talk to the Play withSIX and Armaholic guys to try see if a simple and acceptable solution can be found. I'd spend the time to do this talking myself, but obviously I can't make the decisions for you. Instead of having each involved party say "it's the other guy's responsibility", it would be very much appreciated if you could just try to talk it out and see that maybe there is an easy solution... If an acceptable solution cannot be found then so be it. But just trying to find one is the very least I'd expect.

I really hope that's not too much to ask.

If you want it so much then you can at least try to host it on your own ftp - servers are cheap ;)

[tachi 10]

The carryhandle sights versions are already in there.

Are they? Haven't found any info there about it. What are the classnames?

[megazogg 14]

Word BETA scares people away, because it's considered as non stable software basically. You can just rename it in something like RC(Release Candidate)

For example you call your version 0.3.5, rename all your BETA versions into 0.3.6 RC, 0.3.7 RC, or just simple 0.3.6, 0.3.7. I don't really see whats the point of releasing betas to the public, and proving that they are more stable and bug free in comparison to the 0.3.5 for example. Why don't just update the mod more often, are the updates really big and that's the point behind it? You don't want people to download updates every month? Are those updates actually that big, so it's hard to download once a month 1gb updates, or are they bigger?

---------- Post added at 04:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 AM ----------

And btw, why you've decided to replace m203 with m320?

and for what reason they should do it? To not scare people who are afraid of word "beta"? And what should they do if, some time in future, after they will replace word "beta" with words "release candidate", some people will not use "RC" versions because they don't like it? Rename again? Changing setup of autoupdeter each time? I may sound rude, but reading this thread I started to belive that some people are just stupid. They constantly ask the same questions for same persons and get same answers every time but still ask them again and again and again... RHS guys said a lot of times that:

1. Beta is perfectly safe, fully functional and have the same working content as the "stable" release + new wip content.

2. That "stable" release is outdated, most of it bugs were fixed in beta.

3. Soul_Assassin said at least two times in resent days here that it is recommended to use beta release of the mod.

So, if some people don't want to switch to beta because of their subjective prejudice against beta versions in general - it's their problem.

[sabre 244]

And btw, why you've decided to replace m203 with m320?

Nothing has replaced anything in the mod. The M320 is the current issue single-shot 40mm grenade launcher for the US Army, hence it was done first as it was the higher priority for the US Army units.

The M203 is currently work in progress and will be added when it's done.

[PuFu 4591]

Word BETA scares people away, because it's considered as non stable software basically. You can just rename it in something like RC(Release Candidate)

we could but we won't. mezazogg listed you the reasons

For example you call your version 0.3.5, rename all your BETA versions into 0.3.6 RC, 0.3.7 RC, or just simple 0.3.6, 0.3.7. I don't really see whats the point of releasing betas to the public, and proving that they are more stable and bug free in comparison to the 0.3.5 for example.

Neither do i see what's the point of you asking about something you obviously don't see the point of..

Why don't just update the mod more often, are the updates really big and that's the point behind it? You don't want people to download updates every month? Are those updates actually that big, so it's hard to download once a month 1gb updates, or are they bigger?

You fail to see the following: not everything is about YOU, the consumer.

If only it was just 1 minute 42 seconds. But it's 1 minute 42 seconds times the number of players I'll have to help to do it as well, times the fact that they simply won't get it and have issues that need help resolving, on top of the fact that this comes as an extra to helping them make the whole thing play nicely with all the other mods (and if you've ever helped a noob, you'd know editing a shortcut or even using a launcher is out of the question unless you want to take control of his PC with remote desktop and set it up for him).

1. are the people that you surround yourself with so retarded that you need to explain a step by step video to them? Are you being paid for this?

2. are you really gonna complain about how hard it is to explain a fucking explanatory video against a day of work for preping a release via conventional means?

I would have expected you guys would have a bit more understanding for how difficult it is to explain to noobs how to setup and install mods.

So, again, same question? So we should make things easier for you, while making everything harder for us ?

Besides, what is your expectancy policy?

I also didn't ask for anything more than just trying to talk to the Play withSIX and Armaholic guys to try see if a simple and acceptable solution can be found.

It seems to me i need to keep repeating myself for you, might be because of previously mentioned people you surround yourself with...There is nothing to be talked with PWS nor Armaholic, because you only need a solution when you have a problem, but there isn't any problem...

I'd spend the time to do this talking myself, but obviously I can't make the decisions for you.

No one is stopping you to ask PWS to update itself to the latest available beta. On the contrary, if you need it, please go ahead and do just that!

Instead of having each involved party say "it's the other guy's responsibility", it would be very much appreciated if you could just try to talk it out and see that maybe there is an easy solution... If an acceptable solution cannot be found then so be it.

Why should it be anyone's else responsibility about how PWS operates but PWS' admins? Why should it be anyone's else responsibility about the way Armaholic operates but it's own? No one is pointing any fingers lad.

But just trying to find one is the very least I'd expect.

I really hope that's not too much to ask.

You aren't asking you are requesting (hence the use of the verb "i would expect")...

TO conclude - this decisions train has left the station long time ago, and you never had a ticket for it.

:: alex used to be proud of me, but then i took an arrow to the knee... ::

Edited February 23, 2015 by PuFu
typos

[naizarak 4]

so how frequently can we expect beta stuff to be pushed to the main stable branch on pws?

[miketim 20]

Hey, congrats on all that new cool stuff which will be in beta, seems really great.

Also pufu, those AKs look like great work, I remember I used to annoy you about those AKMs , now I am grateful though :D

I have downloaded the RHS betas from the .bat, and then tried them in the game.. but I see no difference from the current version, I cant even find those truck-mrap things or the shotgun..(which I thought is what is in the current beta release) I think I probably somehow managed to do it wrong, but the thing is that I just ran both bats like I should have as far as I know, I am not sure what I could have even screwed up.. Edit: I seem to have figured it out, I screwed up where I put the BAT

Also while I dont have a particular problem with the use of the current system because it clearly has a high level of efficiency, Galhozar has some very valid points in respect to noobs.. they are total idiots and you have to sit there for hours trying to tell them how to navigate a fucking menu on play with six let alone extract some files or run a bat :j: Such is the sad state of noobs though...

ps:

@Naizarak FPDR

Edited February 23, 2015 by MikeTim

[mistyronin 1181]

If only it was just 1 minute 42 seconds. But it's 1 minute 42 seconds times the number of players I'll have to help to do it as well, times the fact that they simply won't get it and have issues that need help resolving, on top of the fact that this comes as an extra to helping them make the whole thing play nicely with all the other mods (and if you've ever helped a noob, you'd know editing a shortcut or even using a launcher is out of the question unless you want to take control of his PC with remote desktop and set it up for him).

I would have expected you guys would have a bit more understanding for how difficult it is to explain to noobs how to setup and install mods.

I also didn't ask for anything more than just trying to talk to the Play withSIX and Armaholic guys to try see if a simple and acceptable solution can be found. I'd spend the time to do this talking myself, but obviously I can't make the decisions for you. Instead of having each involved party say "it's the other guy's responsibility", it would be very much appreciated if you could just try to talk it out and see that maybe there is an easy solution... If an acceptable solution cannot be found then so be it. But just trying to find one is the very least I'd expect..

Galzohar. We can't force anyone to host our files. Tho it would be really nice if they decided to host our betas, it's their own decision. And we respect it :)

We provide already a system to download our Beta, which IMHO I think it's fine enough, and easier to install than most applications.

If you want even easier systems for those of your community that are less experimented, you can always re-upload our beta to a mega / dropbox server or use torrent or other launchers like Arma3 Sync.

Edited February 23, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Redphoenix 1539]

Ok, just to make sure.

It's too hard for you fellow players to:

- Create a folder (one click)

- Unzip an archive (two clicks)

- and run the *.bat? (double click)

So 5x2= 10 clicks are too many for your players. Thats...... interesting.....

We cannot make it any easier for people to download the beta.

[p0laris 14]

Its getting hot in here with all this heated discussion.. I think we should change the topic.. Soooo I'm really looking forward to the next beta release guys! Keep up the phenomenal work! It's really impressive. I'm stoked to see the FROG uniform actually textured in Desert and Woodland MARPAT!

Edited February 23, 2015 by P0LARIS

[sparfell_19 188]

Its getting hot in here with all this heated discussion.. I think we should change the topic.. Soooo I'm really looking forward to the next beta release guys! Keep up the phenomenal work! It's really impressive. I'm stoked to see the FROG uniform actually textured in Desert and Woodland MARPAT!

+1

Your work is outstanding and involving the community with a such beta program is a very nice idea, thank you for that.

[reyhard 2082]

Got it. But once you change the zeroing, you can't get it back to 440m. This makes it seem like a bug. Also you have to press Up to get the zeroing go down, to 100m.

seems you are doing it wrong, to get back to 440m you need to press pg down while zeroed on 100m.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2Su0rTmanUc/TpS9ZHDGNgI/AAAAAAAAA3k/e5TgyLSbve4/s640/IMAG0759.jpg

П - it's marking for battle sight which is equivalent of 440m. try to google it to get idea what it's for :)