"is putin looking to expand the chechnya war?"

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MrMilli @ Oct. 09 2002,22:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, the USSR wasn't around in the 16th century, but I didn't say that.

They were a forced part of the USSR when they supported the wrong side (as in non-communists) in 1917/18, and were punished by the communist leadership for it for 70 years after.<span id='postcolor'>

Everyone who opposed the communists got a shitty deal.  Millions of Russians suffered too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unfortunately mate, doing a quick search on the internet is not going to give you a sudden in depth knowledge of the ethnic background and history of the area.<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, but living in Russia, knowing people who used to be in the Russian military, and completing a written report on Chechen history for a Grade 13 Russian class here in Canada a few years ago did.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I never said Putin ordered the bombings, but if someone places a bomb who is responsible?

the nation that he is a citizen of or the bomber?

Chechnya 1996-present is a product of what Russia made it.

<span id='postcolor'>

If the nation is aiding and encouraging the bombers, the nation is responsible. I thought this much was made clear in Afghanistan.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Permenant occupation is not the best solution to anything

<span id='postcolor'>

No, but it beats doing nothing and waiting for the next bomb to come your way.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You don't "combat terrorism" by coming along and saying to the people of afghanistan (for example only) "you're all liberated, and by the way we're arresting the people funding your government" and then moving on to another country.

Afghanistan is still a poor country, now a lot poorer.

You don't save Georgia from the tide of fundementalist cross border terrorists by sending in the Green Berets to teach the Georgians how to kill better.

<span id='postcolor'>

So what would your solution be? Make them promise to play nice from now on?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Finally, there is a difference between bombing a terrorist training camp in afghanistan with a LGB and LEVELLING Grozny with 155mm HE and Fuel Air Bombs.

There is a difference between bombing a country and flooding it with motor rifle divisions.

Chechnya doesn't have a handy minority who will come along and form a co-operative government after a few bombing strikes, it will only drag on.<span id='postcolor'>

A ground war brings devastation, that is the sad truth. A ground war is also the most effective way (most people would say the only way) to gain control of an area. There has never been a clean war where innocents didn't suffer , despite what Hollywood may have taught you.

<span style='color:red'>*edit*</span></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RIA Novosti RUSSIAN-GEORGIAN JOINT MEASURES ON FRONTIER PROTECTION TO BE DISCUSSED IN TBILISI<span id='postcolor'>

Good news at last

[Chill 0]

Chechnya is a Afghanistan for the Russians. Russians are oppressors. So many innocent people have died under their rule. I am sure alot of people here come from Europe and should bee alot wiser to the way Russia conducts itself.

Look at Ukraine, Poland, Hunagary ect: they lived under the opressian of Russia and eventually, after along bloody oppressian got their freedom.

The same for Chechnya! They deserve it to get their freedom and not be tagged as terrorists!!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Except many of them are terrorists. Horrific crimes have been committed on both sides, but without a doubt some Chechens have earned the terrorist tag.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 10 2002,00:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Chechnya is a Afghanistan for the Russians. Russians are oppressors. So many innocent people have died under their rule. I am sure alot of people here come from Europe and should bee alot wiser to the way Russia conducts itself.

Look at Ukraine, Poland, Hunagary ect: they lived under the opressian of Russia and eventually, after along bloody oppressian got their freedom.

The same for Chechnya! They deserve it to get their freedom and not be tagged as terrorists!!<span id='postcolor'>

That's the problem with a lot of people. You still can't tell the difference between Stalinist Russia and Russia today. When Russia controlled Ukraine, poland, Hungary, ect, Russians themselves were an opressed people. Who do you think changed things over there?!? The Russian people did! Things have changed but this cold war mentality about Russians unfortunately lives on

[Chill 0]

Tex tell me how did they earn the tag as terrorists? What about the US and their slaugter of the native Indians do we call that genocide?

Russia fell apart from within! Stalin was responsible for the for the deaths of 11 million Ukrainians and nothing has been said!

There are still old Stalin believers still left in Russia and to have total democracy in the region these zealots should be thrown out!

[Tovarish 0]

1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 10 2002,021)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tex tell me how did they earn the tag as terrorists?<span id='postcolor'>

300 Civilians bombed

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What about the US and their slaugter of the native Indians do we call that genocide?

<span id='postcolor'>

well, I for one do actually. The native people's of  all the America's were royally screwed by European settlers. that's a sad fact.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Russia fell apart from within! Stalin was responsible for the for the deaths of 11 million Ukrainians and nothing has been said!

<span id='postcolor'>

So it just magically happened? and nothing has been said about Stalin's attrocities? That's one of the most ignorant things I've heard.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There are still old Stalin believers still left in Russia and to have total democracy in the region these zealots should be thrown out!<span id='postcolor'>

Just like there are still some Neo-Nazis in Germany and other extreemist groups in many democratic countries. And guess what - as soon as you throw them out - there goes your democracy. For freedom of speech must be guaranteed.

[Spetsnaz -PELOPES- 0]

I will say just one thing... If you guys had saw a movie made by the Chechens Rebels, that I saw... its a torture movie... horrible, just horrible, I know that the russians probarly do the same with the Rebels but I never saw a movie made by the russians....

You guys would never say one good thing aboult Chechens.. never....

Here we have a lot of realy good discutions aboult the Chechen War.. with some guys that already fight there...

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=441

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 10 2002,02:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tex tell me how did they earn the tag as terrorists? What about the US and their slaugter of the native Indians do we call that genocide?<span id='postcolor'>

Just like Tovarisch said, they've purposefully targeted civilians 100s of miles away from the Chechen conflict area just to cause fear. They don't want independence, they want blood.

As for the slaughter of Native Americans, yeah, that was genocide- what would you have me do about it? Wring my hands in self-guilt over something that happened 50 years before even my grandfathers were born? I don't think so. Just because my government fucked up big time 125 years ago does not mean I can't call out terrorists when they appear.

[Chill 0]

Ok we will go on Tovarish and Tex's theories. They call Chechen's terrorist because they killed people 100's miles away. So what do you call the US when it bombs people 1000,s of miles away? And Russia who invade and opress people 100 miles away? You guys don't want to understand the plight of people who are in desperate situations yet stand by your own governments who do the same thing,if not worse!

[Tovarish 0]

Here's the difference. The US and Russia (in Russia's case since at least perestroika and glasnost - probably since the end of the Stalinist days) do not have a policy of specifically targeting civilians. These rebels on the other hand, have a "If it's Russian, kill it" policy.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

I think Chechnya is a bit like Palestinia. I think to deny that there are terrorists in Chechnya would be near insane, but to say that everyone in Chechnya is a terrorist would be equally insane. This causes a problem, what to do? Take over the country and eliminate the terrorists slowly while oppressing the innocent civilians? Leave the country alone and let the terrorists flurish? Send in a UN peacekeeping force that cant do anything more than watch? If you have an answer, Im sure Vladimir Putin would be happy to listen!

[desantnik 0]

Tovarish, dont forget the subway bombing on August 9th 2002 in Moskva. This was apparantly also a terrorist attack but I ll leave it up to you guys to debate about, the sad fact is that it happaned while I was riding to my fathers apartment from the airport. damn really put things in perspective for me. I mean I or my Family could been walking along there and this wasnt America anymore, I didnt feel safe. Anyway whenever my 18th birthday comes I am going to enlist in the Russian Army, (tradition) as stupid as that sounds to some it is something I ve always wanted to do. My cousin is serving under Leningrad right now so I will probably join him but its nice to see some people who have recovered from the cold war mentality of seeing Russians as the bad guy's. I see a lot of ignorance in my school about it and it pisses me off so much but I am probably the biggest hypocrite for saying that as I am ignorant of many other things. The deal is that I am a Russian immigrant who is homesick and bored and wanting to know what it is like to serve MY country. I hate being tied up here. I wanna go home dammit.  

Just felt like spilling my guts to you guys for some odd reason. Just felt like I had to do it. I am in the wierdest mood right now, F*ing teenage hormones. Oh well, my point is that I support the Russians, on this and yes I am biased but the Russians include my cousin who is in basic right now.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (desantnik @ Oct. 10 2002,06:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway whenever my 18th birthday comes I am going to enlist in the Russian Army, (tradition) as stupid as that sounds to some it is something I ve always wanted to do. My cousin is serving under Leningrad right now so I will probably join him but its nice to see some people who have recovered from the cold war mentality of seeing Russians as the bad guy's.<span id='postcolor'>

It's pretty brave of you to be thinking of volunteering. I know of many guys who at that age are doing anything they can to avoid the draft, and here you are out of the country and willing to go back for service, that's pretty amazing. If you end up in the service, ne puga, ne pera. I wish you the best of luck.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The deal is that I am a Russian immigrant who is homesick and bored and wanting to know what it is like to serve MY country. I hate being tied up here. I wanna go home dammit.

<span id='postcolor'>

I know the way you feel. I'd like to do the same for my country, Cuba, but there isn't much that can be done until Castro is out of the picture. Then maybe his regime will be weakened. A lot of people are expecting some sort of civil war at that point, and I would love to do whatever i can for a true democracy there.