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Is there a gameplay reason why there is no medical system ?

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I don't understand why anyone would think DayZ is for the casual crowd when compared to ArmA 3. DayZ does several things better than ArmA 3. Two of the biggest ones to me are the medical system and weapon inertia.

On topic though. I hope we see an Arma 3 Combat Medic DLC add in a detailed medical system. Maybe even some medivac helos with working rescue hoists to add in some more features too.

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On topic though. I hope we see an Arma 3 Combat Medic DLC add in a detailed medical system. Maybe even some medivac helos with working rescue hoists to add in some more features too.

Hopefully with one important caveat, forced update non optional.

Such a shame that something as awesome as AFM is only optional.

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The medical decision is most likely a resource and time one. With the development that Arma had I'm not surprised and I don't blame BI. Takes a lot of work to get it to go and they needed to do a lot with little time.
Don't agree.

I see it being a game design decision they made to keep it as simple as pretty much all the other things in Arma 3. Nothing else is really sophisticated so why would the medical system be? They aimed to make the game more plain-shooter friendly and that is what they achieved. Adding a complicated(or just slightly more effort taking) medical system would have slowed the game down too much and definitely had quite a few people constantly complaining about it taking too long to have to bandage, then morphine and epi, maybe splint. naahh i really don't see them doing it. Not to mention the ever present mentality of "modders will do it anyway"

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DayZ doesn't need to worry about AI knowing how to deal with injuries.

Dev just gave yous a reason why . Can maybe dial back speculation.

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------

Or don't, if that is more fun for you.

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Don't agree.

I see it being a game design decision they made to keep it as simple as pretty much all the other things in Arma 3. Nothing else is really sophisticated so why would the medical system be? They aimed to make the game more plain-shooter friendly and that is what they achieved. Adding a complicated(or just slightly more effort taking) medical system would have slowed the game down too much and definitely had quite a few people constantly complaining about it taking too long to have to bandage, then morphine and epi, maybe splint. naahh i really don't see them doing it. Not to mention the ever present mentality of "modders will do it anyway"

There are a lot of sophisticated system in arma.Advanced flight model, slingloading, bipods, ballistics, Artificial intelligence, stance adjust, different movement speeds, countless keybinds...

Regarding medical, I'm big fan of medics in game and interaction with wounded on self treat level and treating other.Bohemia interactive is relatively small team (around 50 people) and they

have to manage time&resources.If you look at the feedback tracker top voted features there is a lot of areas that community wants to explore: Optimization, changing weapon while moving,

bullet in chamber accounting...So with that knowledge behind and with recent awesome additions of bipods, audio improvements and AI supression I know why we don't have medical system yet,

but I'm hoping for one, and talking about it.

Edited by enex

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I don't think it had much to do with MP considerations.

The Arma2 campaign was designed around small fireteam unit operations, so getting incapacitated isn't a big deal as a teammate would pop you back up.

Arma3 has a lot more lone-wolf sections, where there's no chance for revives. A incapacitated crawl campaign would seriously suck, so much of the localized damage modifiers were taken out and the magic FAK introduced to be able to patch yourself.

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Dev just gave yous a reason why . Can maybe dial back speculation.

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------

Or don't, if that is more fun for you.

Uh, to what are you referring?

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There are a lot of sophisticated system in arma.Advanced flight model, slingloading, bipods, ballistics, Artificial intelligence, stance adjust, different movement speeds, countless keybinds...
Not the type of sophistication i was talking about. You're talking about whats under the hood, i was talking about how they're used in-game/what hey add to the game.

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Not the type of sophistication i was talking about. You're talking about whats under the hood, i was talking about how they're used in-game/what hey add to the game.

I was talking about specifics I would love to hear same from you (things used in game/what they add to game).Because ballistics is not only under the hood thing but it affects gameplay, how is

used in game and what it adds.Same with stance adjust, movement speed, weapon sway, fatigue.

I stand behind this but I doubt game cattering towards casual player would intruduce fatigue system where carrying lot of weight is punished with slowdown, weapon sway.

Or where bigger guns are not ideal for close quarter because they needs some time for weapon inertia and I can go on.

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Personally, I don't think a decent medical system needs to be all that complicated. It just needs to provide expected results from wounds. I'm fine with the "Push button, automatically use needed medical supplies" functionality. What I'm not okay with, is watching a soldier take a .408 in the leg or arm and continuing at nearly full effectiveness. And that the current magic IFAKs instantly heal all wounds. Field medical actions should only stabilize the victim, not heal them. They would then require evac to a field hospital where then I would be okay with insta-healing. The amount of detail that does into modeling medical systems can be incredibly detailed (preferred) or really simple. But the user interface doesn't need to reflect either decision.

Ultimately, being severely wounded should take you out of the fight. Being slightly wounded should drastically reduce combat effectiveness. And neither should be able to be fixed in the field.

Edited by Evil Koala

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And that the current magic IFAKs instantly heal all wounds.

For the record, this is not true. They only heal the player back to like 75% health or something like that. A medic with a medical kit is required for a full heal.

Field medical actions should only stabilize the victim, not heal them. They would then require evac to a field hospital where then I would be okay with insta-healing. The amount of detail that does into modeling medical systems can be incredibly detailed (preferred) or really simple. But the user interface doesn't need to reflect either decision.

Ultimately, being severely wounded should take you out of the fight. Being slightly wounded should drastically reduce combat effectiveness. And neither should be able to be fixed in the field.

It's worth noting that this is not only a multiplayer game, and, under this kind of system, being wounded in singleplayer would basically be the same thing as being killed. The system you're proposing, while not necessarily complicated, sounds brutally punishing in a potentially unfun way.

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Personally, I don't think a decent medical system needs to be all that complicated.

A decent start would be to fix the vests so they only protect where you expect. As it stands now, they protect the whole body, which is a much larger area than the vest itself.

Same goes for helmets. The helmets does not visually cover the face, but if you take a hit in the face, the armor value of the helmet still apply.

A decent medical system starts with decent wounding mechanics. Terminal ballistics are good, with the exception I mentioned above. That needs fixing.

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I was talking about specifics I would love to hear same from you (things used in game/what they add to game).Because ballistics is not only under the hood thing but it affects gameplay, how is

used in game and what it adds.Same with stance adjust, movement speed, weapon sway, fatigue.

I stand behind this but I doubt game cattering towards casual player would intruduce fatigue system where carrying lot of weight is punished with slowdown, weapon sway.

Or where bigger guns are not ideal for close quarter because they needs some time for weapon inertia and I can go on.

Again, you seem to be missing the point.

Those features you mention are in no way robust or sophisticated. When i was referencing the medical system i was talking about all the steps that could be required when dealing with an injured soldier. carrying, dragging, bandaging, giving morphine, giving Epinephrine, tourniquets, splints. That is what i mean with sophistication.

The things you mention are like this in Arma:

Ballistics? shoot, see where it lands, page up or page down and shoot again. That's not sophisticated.

Stance adjust? CTRL + WASD. That's not sophisticated.

movement speed? not sure why you would consider that sophisticated..

weapon sway and fatigue? have no bearing on the type of sophistication i was talking about but regardless are not sophisticated at all.

sling loading? hover over something, hit B, wait a few seconds, it's attatched. That's not sophisticated.

The AFM is probably the only actual sophisticated game feature arma3 has, but since it's optional and a majority of people probably don't use it, it's pretty much negligible.

I doubt game cattering towards casual player would intruduce fatigue system where carrying lot of weight is punished with slowdown, weapon sway.

Or where bigger guns are not ideal for close quarter because they needs some time for weapon inertia and I can go on.

The unfortunate state of arma3 but i agree. Edited by Chompster

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I'd like to see BIS concentrate more on the things modders can't do. For instance, AFM is a great addition and I'm sure will get used more as people have time to get to grips with it. Bipods we already had with VTS weapon resting or AGM. Maybe BIS have improved on those with their mplementation but I find it hard to get excited about features being added which I already had via mods. Likewise changing weapons on the move advanced ballistics, etc.

There's already several medical mods but what modders probably can't do is add animations to make people fall back, flinch, limp, writhe in pain, etc when hit or wounded, so if BIS could add stuff like that, the modders could utilise it to make their medical mods even better. Problem is, BIS couldn't really sell some new animations as DLC as everyone will need to have them.

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Again, you seem to be missing the point.

Those features you mention are in no way robust or sophisticated. When i was referencing the medical system i was talking about all the steps that could be required when dealing with an injured soldier. carrying, dragging, bandaging, giving morphine, giving Epinephrine, tourniquets, splints. That is what i mean with sophistication.

The things you mention are like this in Arma:

Ballistics? shoot, see where it lands, page up or page down and shoot again. That's not sophisticated.

Stance adjust? CTRL + WASD. That's not sophisticated.

movement speed? not sure why you would consider that sophisticated..

weapon sway and fatigue? have no bearing on the type of sophistication i was talking about but regardless are not sophisticated at all.

sling loading? hover over something, hit B, wait a few seconds, it's attatched. That's not sophisticated.

The AFM is probably the only actual sophisticated game feature arma3 has, but since it's optional and a majority of people probably don't use it, it's pretty much negligible.

The unfortunate state of arma3 but i agree.

I'm not trying to tell you what you should think what is sophisticated, here I'm merely establishing the point what do I think:

Ballistics:The fact that it has bullet drop, round dispersion, recoil affecting bullet flight path, muzzle velocity is pointing at sophisticated system.

Stance adjust:The fact that you have 9 different stances where adjust stance to you liking is to me system that no other game has.sophisticated.

Movement speed:Walking, jogging, sprinting, tactical pace, jogging with weapon down, jogging with weapon down holding it with 2 hands...no casual game

would have that, ergo sophisticated movement system.

Weapon sway&fatigue:The more you weight you put on, the quicker your sway will affect your aim.It doesn't stop there however - the velocity of turning left and

right also affect sway, and fatigue adds to it.On top of it, stance you are in greatly changes weapon sway.

Weight on the other hand slow you down, to the point where you are moving like a snail.It adds to weapon sway which affects accuracy.Quite sophisticated.

I think I established with lengthy description why I think systems are sophisticated.I only wish you would do the same and avoid "That's not sophisticated." as the proof.

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I'd like to see BIS concentrate more on the things modders can't do. For instance, AFM is a great addition and I'm sure will get used more as people have time to get to grips with it. Bipods we already had with VTS weapon resting or AGM. Maybe BIS have improved on those with their mplementation but I find it hard to get excited about features being added which I already had via mods. Likewise changing weapons on the move advanced ballistics, etc.

There's already several medical mods but what modders probably can't do is add animations to make people fall back, flinch, limp, writhe in pain, etc when hit or wounded, so if BIS could add stuff like that, the modders could utilise it to make their medical mods even better. Problem is, BIS couldn't really sell some new animations as DLC as everyone will need to have them.

I for one am happy to be able to remove scripted solutions for bipods and weapon resting. L'etranger's VTS was great, but its time has passed now. If there is a mod that everyone is using, those are the things that BIS should be putting into the vanilla game. Another great example is Moricky's Virtual Arsenal. Many communities and scenario designers were using Tonic's Virtual Ammobox System. Its functionality was great but the code was inefficient and it works much better as an in-engine solution. Yes there were some complaints, but in my opinion it is the right thing to do, to take the most popular mods and integrate them into vanilla. Certainly not with all of their resources, but having a team working on that sort of thing IMO is good.

The only aspect I disagree with is BIS providing no credit to the works they draw upon from the community, in their creation of substitutes. For instance, there should have been a credit given to Tonic, for inspiration with the Virtual Arsenal. Same with Zeus, credit should have been given to MCC. With weapon resting, it is clear some queues were used from VTS and TMR, there should have been credit given, such as 'Inspired by ...'.

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Honestly, I think ArmA 3 is currently limited by its inventory system. DayZ's inventory should be adopted ASAP.

What currently prevents us from having a more advanced medical system (as well as wind, or repairs) is the limited means of interacting with our enviroment and using our items. Mods have to resort to custom UIs to avoid a cluttered action menu, but what would vanilla do? Imagine walking up to someone as a medic and having a huge list of actions (diagnose, measure pulse, apply tourniquet, bandage, apply field dressing, apply morphine, use epi-pen ......). That's obviously not feasible. If we had DayZ's inventory system, we could simply take the item we need in our hands and then use it. No cluttered action menu, more room for addons (no need for HUD elements, instead things like the kestrel and atrag could simply be added as physical objects), easy, intuitive and immersive usage.

But right now? Leave the medical system as-is (aside from, possibly, better wounding effects e.g. limping when shot in the leg).

It's worth noting that this is not only a multiplayer game, and, under this kind of system, being wounded in singleplayer would basically be the same thing as being killed. The system you're proposing, while not necessarily complicated, sounds brutally punishing in a potentially unfun way.

I disagree. You already need a medic in singleplayer anyways because FAKs don't quite cut it- even when you treated yourself, you will still suffer from increased sway and constant wheezing. It'd be pretty much what we have now, except more immersive.

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I for one am happy to be able to remove scripted solutions for bipods and weapon resting. L'etranger's VTS was great, but its time has passed now. If there is a mod that everyone is using, those are the things that BIS should be putting into the vanilla game. Another great example is Moricky's Virtual Arsenal. Many communities and scenario designers were using Tonic's Virtual Ammobox System. Its functionality was great but the code was inefficient and it works much better as an in-engine solution. Yes there were some complaints, but in my opinion it is the right thing to do, to take the most popular mods and integrate them into vanilla. Certainly not with all of their resources, but having a team working on that sort of thing IMO is good.

The only aspect I disagree with is BIS providing no credit to the works they draw upon from the community, in their creation of substitutes. For instance, there should have been a credit given to Tonic, for inspiration with the Virtual Arsenal. Same with Zeus, credit should have been given to MCC. With weapon resting, it is clear some queues were used from VTS and TMR, there should have been credit given, such as 'Inspired by ...'.

You've brushed upon something that's intrigued me for a while now: that being scripts and addons that are later introduced into vanilla. But BIS and its devs won't give credit because that'll be an admission that they've based their ideas and work on other people's creations, and then there's the legal implications as there's an universal agreement that people's work is automatically copyrighted. "Every poet's a thief" but morally it could be argued that sooner or later BIS would have thought of the idea anyway, hence why patents are time limited.

How I see it is BIS and its devs have time and budget restraints that prioritise what they develop and such features are planned but not yet released due to this.

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The way I see it, as long as they've not used any code/IP from those they have allegedly based their implementations upon, where is the harm?

Its like saying I saw Lennards L119A1 pack for ArmA2 and decided to make my own because I thought I could do better...I didn't use any content from Lennard's pack, or a single scrap of code, but is Lennard due a credit for it? I don't think so.

It would be fluffy and nice if BI turned around and said "Yeah, fair play to Author X, and Addon-Maker Y for their work on Mod Z. We liked the idea and due to its popularity we coded our own version using no code of theirs and have included in the base game free of charge for all to enjoy". However, I don't think there is an issue there.

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The way I see it, as long as they've not used any code/IP from those they have allegedly based their implementations upon, where is the harm?

Its like saying I saw Lennards L119A1 pack for ArmA2 and decided to make my own because I thought I could do better...I didn't use any content from Lennard's pack, or a single scrap of code, but is Lennard due a credit for it? I don't think so.

It would be fluffy and nice if BI turned around and said "Yeah, fair play to Author X, and Addon-Maker Y for their work on Mod Z. We liked the idea and due to its popularity we coded our own version using no code of theirs and have included in the base game free of charge for all to enjoy". However, I don't think there is an issue there.

You are correct as you cannot copyright an idea. But could there be an argument that BIS copied a design? The outcome of such court cases are inevitably dependant on the arguments put forward by the lawyers.

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Zeus is not taken from MCC or VTS is from god old prototype of 3d editor from flashpoint.I saw a video about it,

but I'm speaking from memory so I can't find source, but is somewhere around in forums.

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You are correct as you cannot copyright an idea. But could there be an argument that BIS copied a design? The outcome of such court cases are inevitably dependant on the arguments put forward by the lawyers.

Do we not realize that BIS created the framework and engine any code is based on in the first place? Tomorrow, if they wanted they could kill the modding community, like that! Their "thanks" is the opportunity to even create it in their platform in the first place IMHO.

Now don't get me wrong I fully support thanking any independent content creators and giving credit where credit is due, especially when it comes from the community side- but the expectation that BIS somehow owes anyone anything is silly, it is us that are at the mercy of BIS whether or not that's good or bad can be debated and has been.

Edited by Sniper Pilot

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Do we not realize that BIS created the framework and engine any code is based on in the first place? Tomorrow, if they wanted they could kill the modding community, like that! Their "thanks" is the opportunity to even create it in their platform in the first place IMHO.

Now don't get me wrong I fully support thanking any independent content creators and giving credit where credit is due, especially when it comes from the community side- but the expectation that BIS somehow owes anyone anything is silly, it is us that are at the mercy of BIS whether or not that's good or bad can be debated and has been.

I don't think it works like that. Final Draft has created the framework for creating spec scripts, but that doesn't give them the right to own a screenwriter's screenplay. If you read my earlier post you'll realised that I'm impartial.

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Do we not realize that BIS created the framework and engine any code is based on in the first place? Tomorrow, if they wanted they could kill the modding community, like that! Their "thanks" is the opportunity to even create it in their platform in the first place IMHO.

Now don't get me wrong I fully support thanking any independent content creators and giving credit where credit is due, especially when it comes from the community side- but the expectation that BIS somehow owes anyone anything is silly, it is us that are at the mercy of BIS whether or not that's good or bad can be debated and has been.

And they are out our mercy as well. If we don't find their game amenable then we dont buy it and their company fails. This isn't a one way street, its in their best interests to treat their customer base well. For us 1.42 is a huge step back in capabilities because the release has broken a large swathe of mods and introduced worse implementations in their place but designed in a very similar way. I don't see this as progress and I can understand why some of the mod writers would be pretty annoyed with how this has happened. To me it shows a continued direction of BI wanting to shun the mod and milsim communities that sustained their franchise for so long.

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And they are out our mercy as well. If we don't find their game amenable then we dont buy it and their company fails. This isn't a one way street, its in their best interests to treat their customer base well. For us 1.42 is a huge step back in capabilities because the release has broken a large swathe of mods and introduced worse implementations in their place but designed in a very similar way. I don't see this as progress and I can understand why some of the mod writers would be pretty annoyed with how this has happened. To me it shows a continued direction of BI wanting to shun the mod and milsim communities that sustained their franchise for so long.

I'm sorry, what???

Bis finally start giving the sounds some love, "work In progress".

They add bi pods, resting, still some tweaking to do.

And you want them to stop.

that's your opinion, cool. Not one I'd agree with.

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