What's the sniper rifle

[Ruskiesrule 0]

old school le enfield, used larger bullets than the newest one.

[Maraudeur 0]

Damn, as always my bad english will be a problem to put my mind on the boards... I'll try...

Well, exactly like Mister Frag perfectly explained, the best cartridge for sniping at long ranges ( we'll say operational common use between 600 and 1200 meters max ) is definitively the 338 lapua magnum and none can seriously match it.

Some powerfull Dakota products 338 cartridges are fine also, but actually lacks serious and coherent weapons to use them.

Beetween, two facts are to take in acount : first it surely will stay limited diffusion cartridge, and because of the ratio power/existing powders/case design the pressure in the ammo case climbs faster than the lapua round, and with pics, this is not good for pure accuracy.

( it affects bullet deformation while taking the grooves of the rifling, the gyro stabilisation and the manner the speed grows while the bullet travels in the barrel ).

Keep in mind that best barrels are polygonals ones.

Less ( quite equal to zero ) bullet deformation due to rifling because of a caliber near to the one of the bullet ( unlike conventionnal rifling which need to " bite " the bullet in its thickness), far less gaz passing front of the bullet -- better use of the propulsing energy -- driving in complete and progressive bullet's speed, so and also easier and better way to finish the rifling and barrel bushing because while the bullet leaves the barrel, prpulsive gaz can destabilize it a lot.

( But to achieve same results, and better, as intended, in accuracy with polygonal rifling, the industrial processes are very expensives. It is really high precision mechanic, as you could find for space going systems

Only one can reach them : Lothar Walther -- that was my advertising moment -- )

Shadow, the 7.62.51 is far underpowered compared to the 338 lapua so it cannot be a challenger for the subject of that topic.

About the .50, Mister Frag already explained that it is not a realy acurate cartridge, and what are the tasks it can be fitted for.

About the research for very long range sniper rifles, this a false quest.

Because of tactical.

First, the true performance and  objective is to be as near as you can for shooting. ( Yes, I am actually talking about snipers )

For a considered 338 lapua rifle, in european countrys and most of the terrains you can encounter worlwide-- except mountains, but there the bad climatics dicactes limits--, firing distance is considered to be dangerous under 600 meters ( shooter spotted, return of fire if so ) and not offering acceptable probability of decisive hit at more than 900 meters.

And, I insist, to find a firing position to an objective at greater ranges makes, possible choices won't be numerous at all.

And this is why big distances are not researched, because spotting a sniper position ( the area where it is believed to be is enough to have missed the tasks and methods a snipers search for ) is easy. Sound of the fire, of the bullet impact, manner the target suffer the hit, many many others, tactical situation, placement of the troops in presence....drives your senses and brain to think that the ambushed killer is somewhere by....hummm distance....azimut....eh eh... no good firing conditions with those parameters except a few one, and BANG you missed the mission, surely you'll be soon dead. -- free hunt ! --

I can tell you that yes, you can make regulary successfull hits at 1000 meters and more with 7.62X51, more than 1500 meters with .338 lapua, depending on athmospheric conditions, and examples of even more exists.

If the guy feel the good opportunity, he's in great condition and wants to play, just go on, and so records exists. But they are just records.

 

Now why I am posting.

I've seen the words " stopping power ". Here is a major problem.

Stopping power is just an idea, not a fact, it is a myth, it do not exist.

The only way to put out of order of fighting human material is by destroying organs.

The most researched is cerebro spinnal axis, to tell it.

Except if you destroy brain, heart, broke the vertebral column, effects will not be immediate and decisive. ( some are decisive, like liver, but not immediate ).

What ever, accurate fire ( handguns or rifles it's the same absolute neccessity ) is needed.

Why ? because stopping power do not exist. period.

It is a dangerous myth. Dangerous if you have to use and choose a weapon/cartridge for your security/task.

A bullet by speed and mass got an energy value. Ok.

But when hitting semi-liquidians parts as human body is, it do not " deliver " or " transfer " its energy. It ->loose<- it in it, but no any "transfer" able to destroy whatever you want.

The proof ? I shoot at you at close range with a 44 magnum, wearing as bullet proof vest. You will not die. Maybe a least a broken rig, or you'll sleep a little ( and this is a inconscient defense system, coming in heritage from ages, just like animals seems to be dead when attacked ). But that's all.

But you " received " the immediate and total energy of the bullet, and faster than if you were not wearing bulletproof jacket because bullet stops it run fastly, you stopped it ( yes, here the word " stop " is accepted )

So, what's wrong ??

Your tissues are of liquidian types and elastical, for most of them ( except bones, brain, ... few others I'm too lazy to search in my translating dictionnary sorry excuse me .... few others you cannot seriously search to aim at -- err you can try head shoots but, well, search center body mass believe me --).

When the bullet comes in your body, it destroy ONLY what is on it's course. So just the nominal diameter by lenght of the course in the body. This is not a lot, eh ?

That's why tumbling effect is researched for rifles bullets ( by great ratio diameter/lenght, reared center of gravity and axis instability -- opposite to the axis stability reseached for accuracy :O LOL ! -- )

If " power " thinked as stopping was a fact, kinetic enery transfer if you prefer, when hitted by a bullet at your arm or thorax, you should totally loose your arm or have internal explosions inside your thorax. This not the fact. You only suffer HOLES effects in your integrity.

One thing you must absolutely care about are the firing trials in plastiline showned everywhere. Plastiline is not elastic !!!!!!

When a bullet hit an object, it produces what are so called crushes, one permanent and one " temporary ".

The permanent one is always equal to the bullet diameter or the the profile of the tumbling bullet, and the " temporary " one , whaow, so bigger !

Yes, but I repeat plastiline or similar trials materials are not elastic, do not have same density and elasticity of human tissues !!!

In human body, the tissues under the impact will expand a little, and...retract to initial place, with no damages ! Liquidian typed tissues.

Best speed/mass/penetration ratio for terminal ballistic is 9mm Parabellum for handguns or 10mm Auto for if the recoill is not a problem for you, and for rifles, too many possibilities/variations to be told here !

.40 and .45 lacks energy regarding theyr diameter and mass to be effective, theyr choice is...cultural. ( and in some manner, help continuing the dangerous stopping power myth......)

About this, expansive bullets are a marketing fashion, adding

1 or 2 millimeters to a 9 or 11.43 millimeters bullet arguing this will increase effects by more than it's percentage diameter increase is a lie.

And more, it is in fact a lost of effectivness. Because they loose a lot of penetration capacytes when and after expanding.

Depending of the angle of impact, a great penetration is needed to reach a decisive organ.

You could be very surpised about how important and easily all the day objects, clothes even summer ones, small bones, passing thru different density materials can deviate and stop a bullet.

Argh... Also be carefull about penetration values manufacturers gives !!

This apply to human materials as well as armour steel.

Perforing is not penetrating !!!!!!

If a bullet is said to penetrate 50 centimeters of human materials and statistic evaluated thickness of clothes etc...., it will not reach an organ behind 50 centimeters, but behind 45 or less !!!

This is because of the resistance offered during perforation on all the incoming object parts, most of it beeing the rear mass still opposite to axe of the penetrating object.

I explain : a claimed 50 cms penetrating bullet will go thru a 50 cms object. OK.

But if you fire it at an 60 cms object, bullet will stop afer a 45 cms run or less !

Just look for handgun bullets full jacketed tronconical-cutted bullets ( as Lapua's -- no I'm not Finnish lol ! ) and rifle cartridges with known tumbling effect ( heavy full jacketed bullets of course ). About rifle bullets, expanding due to speeds reached frequently means bullet exploding.

Desesparate because of the difficulty to obtain good terminal effects, some manufacturers....  ==>> The irony is that for some, exploding bullets are researched, like SS109 NATO .223 cartridge - M805 designation if I remember correctly -

That bullet due to different density core separates in many parts, but theyr trajectory are so erratic, theyr size and own energy - for travelling deep enough - made them innefective except, greatly reduced, the heavy part of the core.

Ahem....I would prefer go to the field with another ammo !

If you are intersested about terminal ballistic, try a search with google with Fackler+ballistic, you'll find gold

Sorry for the long post and OT, thanks for reading.

[Maraudeur 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Oct. 05 2002,13:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Oct. 04 2002,14:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Oct. 05 2002,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really?  What a crappy bullet that is!!!

Come on, bones aren't that strong at all, especially ribs.

Are bullets like that actually used by the army?

ps: 1337 post <span id='postcolor'>

it's not a "crappy" bullet , it's a bullet ment to kill birds ......<span id='postcolor'>

Lol, that explains a lot <span id='postcolor'>

Eh, yes, Ran, .22 long rifle is small cartridge, but effective, you can do so much with it...varminting with it is a damn good school.

Must be said that even very bigger cartridges can see theyr bullets deviateted by a single very light leaf, and I've seen 7.62X51 bullets rebound off the back of a wild boar  

Which leather is finally not so harder than bird's feathers, and bones, deviates easily a bullet, whatever caliber it is, it depends of the bullet speed, rotaring way and angular aspect when hitting any hard object.

BTW, for the wild boar, that was bad to see, meant no meat for the squad !    

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Oct. 05 2002,13:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><Snip>

About this, expansive bullets are a marketing fashion, adding

1 or 2 millimeters to a 9 or 11.43 millimeters bullet arguing this will increase effects by more than it's percentage diameter increase is a lie.

</Snip><span id='postcolor'>

The temporary stetch cavity is significantly larger with hollowpoint bullets than it is with roundnose or spitzer bullets, and it is this cavity that causes difficult-to-stop internal bleeding that is often fatal even if the hyrostatic shock doesn't cause immediately fatal nervous system damage.

[Maraudeur 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The temporary stetch cavity is significantly larger with hollowpoint bullets than it is with roundnose or spitzer bullets

Yes.

Bigger bullets makes bigger temprary cavity, and expansive ones even bigger because of the hydrostatic shock.

But this is in plasitline trials. In human materials, the effects of the hydrostatic shock depends of the nature of the tissues encountered.

And not expansive bullets also creates a temporary crush.... and what is important to say....the crush diameter will be bigger for expansive bullets...only on a short distance. It will fastly become smaller than with FMJ bullets, particulary TC.

And crush is far bigger with expansive bullets than with roundnose, ok, but not so much with TC bullets

I also agree to say that that shock may causes fatal traumas and complicated hemorragy.

But what I am not ok with, is that the expansive bullets counts on the observed shock effects on ->immediately exposed, non elastic and homogenous materials<-, and lacks in originals effects of a penetrating projectile.  

How many organs do not support the hydrostatic shock ? some don't, but most of the body will not suffer this shock.

Opposite, the ammos which count on that effect frequently are too heavy, big, slow to reach a decisive part of our anatomy in adverse conditions ( not perfect anle of fire against target, clothes etc... , and murphy's laws are here to recall streetfighting or combat handgunnery in general rarely offers perfect conditions. )

And if they reach them, they already lost so many energy- speed- so hydrostatic shock who creates the temporary crush is low, so low is the volume and effects of that crush, most of cases the speed of wave displacement, isn't enough to tear the tissue. ( as always some very sensibles ones...)

The object is to find the most effective bullet in common situations, not rare and perfect ones ; and to have a reliable bullet able to go surely, deep where it is needed to obtain an immediate incapacitation of the target, not one changing its energy in a very little increase of its probable effectivness.

I mean :

-standard bullets : If the shoot is correct -- please read also " lucky " along this word "correct" in the two following paragraphs --, they will go on theyr way and do the job.

If the shoot is not correct, well, try again , and the bullets maximises its chances to destroy something vital because it travels deeply.

-Expansive bullets : Even if the shoot is correct, they probably will be stopped before reaching any vital organ.

They'll spent the energy necessary for that task during the travel to the considered organ, which will ( statistics....) not injury enough to drive to an immediate and total incacipation effect.

If the shoot is not correct, same as above.

So effects of interest for expansive bullets exists, but they are limited in theyr effectivness out of the laboratorys on others materials than non elastic and homogenous ones, and theyr counterparts ( probability to be deviated, exploded, stopped before reaching something of interest ) is great.

If they hit with optimal conditions - drastic and rare conditions... - like designers hopes to, fine, but if not....dooh....no alternative, no polyvalence, immediate danger for the user.

One question please, you wrote :

"" even if the hyrostatic shock doesn't cause immediately fatal nervous system damage ""

Do you mean that the shock- hydrostatic, the one that create the temporary crush - ( and not a physical impact of the bullet on nervous related parts ) is capable to have effects on the nervous system ??

I hope no !

[Spitfire 0]

Maraudeur,

Reading your long post I must assume that you're either a coroner, weapons designer or a dedicated henceman, right?

You show some knowledge you can't pick up here and there, you have to study for it.

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Oct. 05 2002,17:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One question please, you wrote :

"" even if the hyrostatic shock doesn't cause immediately fatal nervous system damage ""

Do you mean that the shock- hydrostatic, the one that create the temporary crush - ( and not a physical impact of the bullet on nervous related parts ) is capable to have effects on the nervous system ??

I hope no ! <span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I was talking about the hydrostatic shock that travels through tissue and blood vessels. The pressue from the shock wave can shut down the central nervous system.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Oct. 05 2002,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really?  What a crappy bullet that is!!!

Come on, bones aren't that strong at all, especially ribs.

Are bullets like that actually used by the army?

ps: 1337 post <span id='postcolor'>

The bones of a human adult are approximately 5 times stronger than concrete.

Useless fact of the day

Also, the .22 LR round used to be the bullet of choice used by the Mossad in their pistols...

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

My dad told me, that a M16 round when it hits your body and then hits a bone, it will travel up thru the bone.

Also, the round will come out in diffrents places.So you shot someone in the bellybutton, it might come out his arm or something.Thats the reason the M16 is such a good weapon, is it does lots of damage to the body, instead just go in, then out the back.I even tested it in the back yard using my pellet gun.I shot a waterbottle filled with water, dead on, but it came out the side, all i saw was one hole, but then water started to drain out the side to, so thats how i knew.(water simulating flesh).Also, water to a bullet is one of the hardest materials to it, and your body, which is water almost, will make the bullet mushroom.(To test how much a bullet mushrooms, you shoot a box thats filled with water).

But i agree, a .50cal is a good bullet.

My dad even showed me a .50 round that he took out of his M2 on the M1 Abrams he commanded, which looks really mean, and a 1/2 inch round you do not want to get hit with, which when it mushrooms, is about the size of a 20mm round.(its a tracer round to)

My dad said he used plyers to take the bullet off, and empty the casing of its powder, when he took it out of his M2.

And i saw the tracer stuff, still in the back of the bullet(i just need to keep it away from heat  ).

But that shell is one huge shell, which holds a lot of powder, which can really launch that baby.I can take some pictures of it, if you guys want.

The round is about 1 1/2 inches long, and the shell about 4 inches tall, making it a total of 5 inches tall.(1/2 inch is inside the shell, approx, im to lazy to get out the ruler )

[Maraudeur 0]

Oh mister Frag, I'm sorry to see that, that mean you believe in existence of " stopping power " , or whatever called it is hydrostatic shock that can incapacite people by nervous ways.

Damn that is so wrong !

Hydrostatic shock : imagine no more than a water drop ( for the bullet ) in a glass full of water ( for the body ), you will see how is working the thing. ( well, eh, shortcut to the principle ok )

Pressure travel by tissues and blood vessels ? Shutting down the nervous system ? Argh.

Commonly established ideas that are no longer the true.

Would you like to consider the following things please ?

- What are the organs, the nervous system parts and endings that are concerned, needed to been reached just by the wave of the hydrostatic shock ( temporary crush area ) to cause nervous disfonctionnements ?

- Do anyone have an idea of the level and body localisation of the so called shock is needed to produce effects told here ?

- It is said that shock pressure MAY shut off the nervous system by pressure under tissues and blood vessels ??

So, why hundreds of saw on peoples,  impact(s) in the very close heart area, full of blood vessels and major nervous endings didn't caused anything similar ?

- As long as terminal ballistic, medicine is a precise but not finite and exact science, how to explain that high power expansive rounds like black talon or similar bullets that hitted people from the back, just in contact to the upper vertebral column did not suffer any damage due to supposed existing " shock " propagation in the spinal cord, while even the vertebra was in contact with the bullet or, more, stopped it ?

- The only example of nervous incacipation has been given by soldiers entrenched in concrete bunkers suffering heavy carpet bombing. The soldiers were discovered dead, without any physicall damage, sign of pressure exposure, and it still is an unenderstand thing as long as scanner exams did not reveal any nervous system damage.

- The amount of energy made by bullets is far lower than the one caused by blast due to near explosions, and as long as a " shock wave " is considered to be lethal, because the " shockwave hits and go throught the human materials, why do not they cause that sort of nervous incapacitation ?

- The known effect of blast from explosions is similar to KO in boxing rounds : sudden acceleration of displacement of the body will create desynchronised displacement of brain and head, causing loss of conscience. This is not possible for energy from incoming bullets because they do not transfer energy, they lost it in the body, and because they nominal value wouldn't be enough even if the principle and correct impact localisation were acquired ( reference to temporary crush volume ).

- Energy transfer do not exist, not like and not in quantities currently believed, as nobody will fly away meters back after catching a high power bullet with bulletproof jacket or not, let that to hollywood.

Energy is lost in inert environment, not transfered as destructive power. Only the bullet itself, as " owner and user " af an energy for its move, create physical injuries ( As I said in rare and minor cases, some not enough elastical tissues may suffer the effects of the temporary crush, but it is a physicall alteration of those organs, no related to nervous system ).

- If it was the fact, shock after stopping bullets with appropriate jacket woul create a shockwave in you liquidian typed body more important than if it penetrates your body, because of the immediate and complete loss of the bullet energy in the jacket.

What's happening ?

You will be inconscient for three reasons.

- Or your physical status due to tissues in concrete terms destoyed by the bullet contact causes alteration of your health status not allowing your body to maintain usual fonctions, and your brain decides to stop its conscient exploitation. This is simply the lost of conscience.

- Or ( /and ) the resurgenc of pure psylogical mechanisms, as olds as life is, that makes a call for defense by " dead like " apparence => lost of conscience.

- Or ( /and ) cortex reach limits where too high level adrenalin and other stress substances, too high heart beat and that sort of symptoms, would be dangerous to continue that way => emergency solution is to asleep some functions => loose of conscience.

In some cases, adrenalins, individual aptitudes, use of drugs, allows to keep conscient status, so you can see people with theyr body open like a butchery piece, and to stay conscient.

Wouldn't the traumas that causes such physicall damages create a " wawe shock " and " shut off " as you said the nervous system

About the three examples given for the loose of conscience, it may happen that you've gone with them so far that you simply die, appart and/or with conjunction of pure physical status.

But this got nothing to do with an imagined " hydrostatic shock " that is directly causing nervous malfunction.

About shock effect and around " stopping power like " phenomenons are a lot of confusions and legends, but they simply do not exists.

Again sorry for my bad and basic english, I hope my means are understandables.

[Maraudeur 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SKULLS_Viper @ Oct. 06 2002,05:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My dad told me, that a M16 round when it hits your body and then hits a bone, it will travel up thru the bone.

Also, the round will come out in diffrents places.So you shot someone in the bellybutton, it might come out his arm or something.Thats the reason the M16 is such a good weapon, is it does lots of damage to the body, instead just go in, then out the back.I even tested it in the back yard using my pellet gun.I shot a waterbottle filled with water, dead on, but it came out the side, all i saw was one hole, but then water started to drain out the side to, so thats how i knew.(water simulating flesh).Also, water to a bullet is one of the hardest materials to it, and your body, which is water almost, will make the bullet mushroom.(To test how much a bullet mushrooms, you shoot a box thats filled with water).<span id='postcolor'>

Hello

The cartridge, one of the reasons the M-16 is a particulary bad weapon ( soory I have a teasing spirit    )

Well, a conventionnal .223 bullet ( NATO M193 ) solid design ( lead or steel core, fully jacketed ) low weight, high speed and rotation speed, pointed profile, perfectly can hit a bone, and then deviates, go along the bone and destroy the shoulder, causing dramatical damages to vital lood vessels.

This has been reported, along many other strange things, and then it's so impressive it became a legend.

A legend.

It is absolutely not a reaction you can search for and reproduct as a regular comportement for a bullet type.

This is an higly hazardous and lucky thing. Very very rare.

In fact .223 is a very bad infantry cartridge, ( both M193 and M855 ) in terms of terminal ballistic.

M-193 simply do not tumble usually. That's why its effects are minors ( small caliber, other crushes are not reliable effects ).

That's why FN creates the SS109 bullet, M855 known round, and as I explained in my first post, it is not very good....

5.45X39 is far better, with regular and double tumbling effect on initial progression axis, 7.62X39 is fine also, regular simple tumble, bigger nominal diameter, 7.62X51 is fine, etc....

New PDW 5.7X28 and 4.7X33 are just toys for manufacturer's marketing lol.

In the 50's, researchs for replacing 30.06, .303 and that sort of cartridges had three main objectives :

- Reduce the cost of the infantry cartridges : staffs calculates about ten thousands shots for one kill ratio LOL !

- Allow an easier automatic fire weapon's control.

- Allow, considering the two above points, the infantrymen to carry more cartridges for the same weight.

And usual engagements distances didn't required powerfull cartridges.

Some people already created light ammos, USSR in 1943 saw the born of the 7.62X39 used in SKS and AK, famous german 7.92X33.

Western nations started from a white board.

English developped a 6mm cartridge familly for a bullpup gun, the EM-1 and EM-2 AR, very effective, and now in the 21first century similar cartridges designs comes back

But the leader, military, economics, politics, industrial was USA.

Strangely, as US culture is for big and heavy bullets, they tried .17 and .222 cartridges most. ( some 6mm also, but not seriously, some commercial cartridges as research bases were less expensive for Remington and others )

So now the standard is .223...............

About testing ammo effectivness on water bottles, sorry it's a wrong shortcut.

Because :

- Water is not compressible, human tissues are with limits.

- Water volume is not an elastical linked structure, unlike human tissues.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Oct. 05 2002,05:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Oct. 05 2002,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really?  What a crappy bullet that is!!!

Come on, bones aren't that strong at all, especially ribs.

Are bullets like that actually used by the army?

ps: 1337 post <span id='postcolor'>

The bones of a human adult are approximately 5 times stronger than concrete.

Useless fact of the day

Also, the .22 LR round used to be the bullet of choice used by the Mossad in their pistols...<span id='postcolor'>

How can you break a bone then? A huge force must be needed....

[Maraudeur 0]

7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Oct. 06 2002,187)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Oct. 05 2002,05:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Oct. 05 2002,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really?  What a crappy bullet that is!!!

Come on, bones aren't that strong at all, especially ribs.

Are bullets like that actually used by the army?

ps: 1337 post <span id='postcolor'>

The bones of a human adult are approximately 5 times stronger than concrete.

Useless fact of the day

Also, the .22 LR round used to be the bullet of choice used by the Mossad in their pistols...<span id='postcolor'>

How can you break a bone then?  A huge force must be needed....<span id='postcolor'>

Major Fubar's right

A huge force is needed, yes, as always it depends of the action you give. Axial, perforation, etc.....

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Oct. 05 2002,19:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Oct. 06 2002,18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Oct. 05 2002,05:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Oct. 05 2002,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really?  What a crappy bullet that is!!!

Come on, bones aren't that strong at all, especially ribs.

Are bullets like that actually used by the army?

ps: 1337 post <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

The bones of a human adult are approximately 5 times stronger than concrete.

Useless fact of the day

Also, the .22 LR round used to be the bullet of choice used by the Mossad in their pistols...<span id='postcolor'>

How can you break a bone then?  A huge force must be needed....<span id='postcolor'>

Major Fubar's right

A huge force is needed, yes, as always it depends of the action you give. Axial, perforation, etc.....<span id='postcolor'>

Pretty impressive...

[Maraudeur 0]

And, sorry, to finally answer your initial question DarkLight, the ultimate sniper rifle is.....

http://www.hkpro.com/wsg2000.htm

Of course it's an Heckler und Koch !

God damn, have you seen that cartridge !!!!

Killed by economic and politics reasons, like the G-11

Steyr Anti Material Rifle, hum....specific thing...

I do not own a scanner and cannot find any link about russian Guepard rifle in 14.5X114 russian cartridge ( near twice the energy of the NATO 12.7X99 or .50 ), but it is not accurate enough as Mr Frag explained, surely as much as western .50 rifles, but not realy a precision rifle for AP tasks, like them.

So if you want to realise ultimate sniping, search for russian RPOA rocket launcher with thermobaric heads, effects deadlier than an 122mm HE artillery round ( ), range to 800 meters ; or a carl Gustav with HE round, 1000 meters.

Not enough ?

Anti tank portable missile system like Milan, 2 kilometers, and KABOOM !

Anyway, sniper job is to come closer, to realise hidden ingress and egress.

If weapon's range is not enough, if technology do not offer what you think you need, call for artillery, or wait for/ participate in creating for favorable tactical conditions, be flexible, inventive, audacious, don't forget rusticity !