U.S.A. Foreign Policy & Defense

[sudayev 27]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.503742

Yes, everyone knows that the Poles suffered perhaps more than any other nation in the war, and that many of them helped Jews to escape. A plurality of Righteous Among the Nations are Poles. But that doesn't wipe away the deeds of those who did the reverse. Quit playing the victim contest.

Grabowski & Gross - the famous Polish anti-Polish duo. Don't be funny. These two are famous in publishing of "anti-Polish porn" that sells good in the United States. Thanks to them your people talk shit about so called "Polish death camps". They can write whatever they want and it's mostly basing on unreliable sources of information and allegations, but as seen on your post some of them take is for granted.

Almost like pasting a link to some russian revisionist stating that Germans were responsible for genocide in Katyń. Please...

Review of The Hunt for the Jews, by Jan Grabowski. 2013. Indiana University Press, Bloomington and Indianapolis.

Reviewer: Mr. Jan Peczkis

The JUDENJAGT in Action? Not Reliable and Not Objective. Better Works Available (Listed)

The reader learns of some Poles denouncing Jews for the German reward of a bag of sugar, of grabbing anything that belonged to Jews, of even respectable Poles denouncing Jews, and of members of the Polish Blue Police (POLICJA GRANATOWA) drinking to assuage their acts against Jews, etc. Did you know that Jews acted in astonishingly the same ways (towards other Jews, and that even before the actual Holocaust)? Please click on In Those Terrible Days: Writings from the Lodz Ghetto and read the detailed Peczkis review. Clearly, this overall repulsive conduct was severe wartime demoralization, and not some mythical Poles’ “failure of the test of humanity†(p. 5).

Every nationality and every war has produced its share of collaborators (surprise–also Poles)–a fact acknowledged even by nationalistic Polish works. Thus, the constantly repeated mantra that Poles need to be disabused of the “heroic narrative†of their history is misplaced. More on this later.

This book is another “sequel†to Jan T. Gross. Most readers, affected by media spin, suppose that the investigative IPN Commission has proved Gross right on Jedwabne. For clarification, please click on the IPN proceedings, Wokól Jedwabnego, and read the detailed English-language Peczkis review.

My review is divided into the following topics:

GRABOWSKI’S UNRELIABLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION

DABROWA TARNOWSKA COUNTY: THE “HEROIC NARRATIVE†STANDS

SURVIVORSHIP OF FUGITIVE JEWS THROUGHOUT POLAND

WHO DENOUNCED DABROWA’S FUGITIVE JEWS?

FACTORS IN POLISH ACTS AGAINST FUGITIVE JEWS

“EXPLOITIVE†AND “MURDEROUS†POLISH BENEFACTORS OF JEWS?

AUTHOR JAN GRABOWSKI’S IDEOLOGICAL UNDERPINNING

GRABOWSKI’S UNRELIABLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION

Grabowski relies largely on postwar trials of alleged Polish collaborators. He asserts that the new Communist authorities did not tamper with these trials. (p. 12, 279-on). To the contrary: It is a well-known fact that the U. B. (Communist police) habitually beat suspects into giving the desired confessions and testimonies, and framed innocent people. However, even if Grabowski was technically correct, his contention would still fly in the face of reality. The early years of the Soviet-imposed puppet government were a reign of terror designed to intimidate the Polish nation into abject submission. There were tens of thousands of murders and eventually hundreds of thousands of arbitrary arrests. [One of my uncles permanently “disappeared†one day, even though he had never been involved in anything remotely political.] How could credible trials even be imagined in this toxic atmosphere?

Revealingly, Grabowski points out that the allegations of collaboration were based on accusations made by disgruntled neighbors, jilted lovers, and feuding relatives. How credible are they? One quoted testimony was made by a German who (allegedly) was told by a surrendered Jew that a Polish peasant had (allegedly) informed the German about a certain Pole (allegedly) engaging in collaboration. Hearsay!

The author complains that some defendants successfully shifting the blame to “conveniently†dead individuals, and that the A. K. (ARMIA KRAJOWA) reckoned that a Jew they had targeted had spied for the Germans. (pp. 275-276). [such Jews definitely existed, and one of the A. K.’s highest priorities was self-protection through counter-intelligence.] Instead of only showing the weak, unverifiable, and my-word-versus-your-word character of the counter-allegations and alibis, does it not also say the VERY SAME about the original accusations themselves? Does it not point to the impossibility of determining what actually happened–including the justification or otherwise of the alleged Jew-killing?

This book also rests in part on decades-later trials of German defendants in Germany. Admittedly, the German defendants tended effectively to shift the blame to the Poles. (p. 14). In addition, the reader needs to know that the Jewish witnesses had, over time, tended to revert to the historic Germanophilic orientation of most Polish Jews. This likely made them less anti-German and, to relieve the dissonance, more anti-Polish. [This tendency also animates much current Jewish Holocaust-related thinking.] In addition, Holocaust survivors tended to graft into their memories incidents that they had heard from others but not experienced themselves. [see the Peczkis review of COLLECTED MEMORIES, by Christopher R. Browning.]

DABROWA TARNOWSKA COUNTY: THE “HEROIC NARRATIVE†STANDS

Grabowski concludes that, in this county, 51 fugitive Jews survived the war (p. 15), while another 200 were definitely killed through denunciation, and 14 were killed directly by locals (Table 5:2). This is out of 5,500-6,000 Jews in Dabrowa County, the vast majority of which were ghettoized, and then murdered at Belzec, by the Germans.

The 200 denounced begs the question about the ethnicities of the denouncers. Just because a local spoke Polish, and even had a Polish-sounding name, hardly means that he was necessarily an ethnic Pole. He could have also been a German (VOLKSDEUTSCHE). (In fact, even the matter of signing the VOLKSLISTE admittedly went as far as dividing families: p. 265). The POLICJA GRANATOWA had its share of embedded Polish-speaking German agents, ensuring Polish conformity to German directives, and enabling Germans to commit crimes against Jews as “Polesâ€.

In addition, many Polish-speaking Ukrainians served the Germans, throughout German-occupied Poland, and not only in native Ukrainian regions. As for Jewish denouncers of Jews in hiding, Grabowski mentions the ghettos, but glosses over their function in rural areas.

The serious reader should examine all this thoroughly. Study the detailed, objective, free online book: PATTERNS OF COOPERATION, COLLABORATION AND BETRAYAL: JEWS, GERMANS AND POLES IN OCCUPIED POLAND DURING WORLD WAR II, by Mark Paul.

The numbers presented by Grabowski, if accurate, are themselves telling. Since some denouncers were not ethnic Poles, and the average denouncer probably caused the death of more than one Jew, it follows that fewer than 200 Poles were responsible for the demise of the 200 proved (or half-proved) denounced Jews. This is a vanishing fraction of the nearly 60,000 rural Poles of Dabrowa County!

As for the incompleteness of the 200 figure, the implications do not change, as it cannot–at most–be many multiples greater. Of the 5,500-6,000 Jews living in this county, only a small fraction (up to perhaps 10%, that is, 550-600 or fewer) of them ever fled the ghettos and thereby became fugitive Jews.

In any case, the facts are clear. Grabowski has not presented ANY evidence that overturns the long-held so-called “heroic narrativeâ€â€“namely that only a tiny fraction of 1% of the Polish population collaborated with the Nazis, in this case against Jews.

SURVIVORSHIP OF FUGITIVE JEWS THROUGHOUT POLAND

This work, if valid, is not necessarily representative of the rest of rural Poland. Grabowski scrupulously ignores every single one of the works of historian Marek Jan Chodakiewicz. In his BETWEEN NAZIS AND SOVIETS, Chodakiewicz shows that a relatively high 300 of 1,000 fugitive Jews, in another rural area of Poland, survived the German occupation (30%).

When it comes to all-Poland fugitive-Jew survival rates, Grabowski is tendentious. He rejects Jewish scholar Szymon Datner’s estimate of 100,000 fugitive Jews surviving and another 100,000 fugitive Jews perishing (with and WITHOUT the acts of Poles). Instead, he arbitrarily prefers a newer figure of no more than 50,000 survivors–with as many as 200,000 fugitive Jewish perishing. (pp. 2-3). [Jan T. Gross once quoted the latter figure as fact.] In actuality, considering ALL scholarly estimates, the percentage of fugitive Jews in German-occupied Poland that survived the war could plausibly range from a low of 12% to a high of 71%. See POLISH-JEWISH RELATIONS 1939-1945, by Ewa Kurek.

FACTORS IN POLISH ACTS AGAINST FUGITIVE JEWS

Jan Grabowski oversimplifies Poles as having life-and-death powers over fugitive Jews under Nazi rule. (p. 5). Poles throughout German-occupied Poland were part of a corvee system, in which the Germans forced Poles into various forms of compulsory labor, only one of which potentially involved the hunt for fugitive Jews (JUDENJAGT). In addition, Poles acted under duress, even when this was not obvious. The reader should remember that the German-Polish relationship was not that between colleagues or partners. Far from it. It was one between conqueror and conquered, UBERMENSCHEN and UNTERMENSCHEN, master and servant. Grabowski (p. 24) realizes that Poles were just one rung above the Jews, in German thinking, but evidently does not internalize this fact.

Grabowski dismisses the 1939-1941 Jewish-Soviet collaboration as locally irrelevant. Is the reader seriously supposed to believe that Polish anger over Jewish-Soviet collaboration existed ONLY in the geographic areas in which it occurred?

The author briefly alludes to Jewish banditry, but fails to develop this pivotal subject. Banditry is commonly a capital crime during war. Considering additionally that Poles were living in near-starvation conditions under the German occupation, is it surprising that they reacted fiercely to news of Jewish banditry, and sometimes were receptive to German propaganda that characterized ALL ghetto-fleeing Jews as bandits? Polish participants in the JUDENJAGT likely thought themselves protectors of Poles from banditry rather than as hunters of Jews. What’s more, the privations faced by Poles made even modest German rewards for denouncing Jews especially tempting.

Grabowski understates the German-imposed death penalty for the slightest Polish aid to Jews, and glosses over its full implications. Heroism, by its very nature, must be exceptional, and some peasants instead opted to denounce Jewish trespassers at once rather than risk a German “visitâ€. [Frightened Poles sometimes first warned Jews of impending denunciation if the Jews did not leave the area. See the Peczkis review of ON BOTH SIDES OF THE WALL, by Vladka Meed.]

The accounts of Poles torturing and killing Jews are rather lurid. To the informed reader, they smack of old-fashioned GRUELPROPAGANDA, of the archetypical brutish GOY, and of the peasant-as-ogre Polonophobic tall tales of Jerzy Kosinski-Lewinkopf. Of course, some cruelties were real. Accustomed to the wanton savagery of the Germans [and of bandits], peasants sometimes imitated their cruelty (as, in parallel, did some Jewish kapos and Jewish ghetto policemen.)

Interestingly, the Germans prosecuted SZMALCOWNIKI for such offenses as bribing Germans and impersonating Gestapo personnel. (p. 262). This implicitly identifies them as all-around lowlifes, and not just extortionists of Jews. In addition, Grabowski realizes that Polish denouncers of Jews commonly later joined the dreaded Soviet-sponsored Communist security forces (U. B., or BEZPIEKA). (p. 267). This shows that such individuals (yes, including previously respectable citizens) were marginal members of Polish society in that they had no loyalty to Poles or Poland, nor sense of propriety. It also indicates that, rather than avid Jewish-property-getters or anti-Semites, they were equal-opportunity exploiters and killers of Poles as well as Jews. This even has a term: CHAMOKOMUNA (Boor Communism).

“EXPLOITIVE†AND “MURDEROUS†POLISH BENEFACTORS OF JEWS?

The author repeats Jan T. Gross’ myth of “greedy†Poles requiring payment to hide and continue hiding fugitive Jews. In actuality, Poles, owing to the near-starvation conditions under the German occupation, usually were in no position to feed Jews gratis.

Grabowski also emphasizes horror stories of Polish benefactors turning on their Jews and killing them. The unsuspecting English-speaking reader is unaware of the fragile death-defying co-dependency. The Polish benefactor knew that, were the Jew to leave, he would likely fall into German hands and then try anything to save his life, including denunciation of his Polish benefactor, with fatal consequences to the Pole and his family, and even the entire village. Furthermore, the Germans encouraged denunciations, by captured Jews, of Polish benefactors (as well as fellow Jews), through false promises of spared lives in exchange for information. Clearly, the Polish benefactor, having run out of resources, of superhuman courage, or both, was in an unenviable kill-or-be-killed situation, and sometimes acted accordingly.

AUTHOR JAN GRABOWSKI’S IDEOLOGICAL UNDERPINNING

Note that Grabowski’s bibliography features the usual small circle of left wing and Judeocentric authors (including Gross-clones and Gross-lites) to whom the author conforms. These include Omer Bartov, Ana Bikont, Barbara Engelking, Krystyna Kersten, and, of course, Jan T. Gross.

In addition, Jan Grabowski displays his bias through some whoppers. He euphemistically soft-pedals the murderous Soviet-serving Communist GL-AL as merely “left leaningâ€. (p. 272). Incredibly, he also suggests that the postwar Communist authorities were lenient against ideological enemies, including members of the A. K. (p. 12). On what planet is Grabowski walking on?

Interestingly, Grabowski largely relies on a work edited by Feliks Tych for the “factual†low estimates of the survival rates of Poland’s fugitive Jews. (p. 248). Tych is the son-in-law of super-Communist Jakub Berman, who Stalin handpicked to be one of the most powerful henchmen in Poland’s original Communist puppet government. Is Tych credible?

A number of historians have identified Jan Grabowski as a neo-Stalinist. This is not in the sense of rehabilitating Joseph Stalin, but in the sense of resurrecting Stalinist-era motifs that distort Polish-Jewish relations. Read the detailed Peczkis review of GOLDEN HARVEST OR HEARTS OF GOLD?

Finally, the reader should be aware of the fact that there has been, in recent years in Poland, a flurry of activities surrounding property restitution. Is the Holocaust Industry, with its efforts to extort massive “reparations†money from Poland, directly or indirectly behind this book?

[vilas 473]

it is not playing victim card (other nation specializes in it)

it is simply coming from definition - just read wikipedia

holocaust is mass killing of "unter-menschen" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch) ORGANIZED by Third Reich from definition

so if anyone say about involvment or reponsibility in holocaust - he says about Third Reich SS activity

and only reponsible for holocaust are those who were in SS or Third Reich structures of mass planned killing ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation so according boss of FBI Poles were putting Poles to Aushwitz ? )

boss of FBI said that Poland was cooperating with Germany to mass-kill Jews, which is 200% lie , he said that Polish killers were murdering in holocaust process, this is simply 200% lie, cause there was no Polish SS legion

numbers of SS members by nationality say all , who was in SS (by ethnicity: Germans, Romanians, Benelux (Dutch+Belgium), Ukraininans and probably biggest group were Muslims (maybe > 100 thousands , from Croatia, Azerbeijan, other Caucas republics, Middle East), probably Muslims were second big group in SS after Germans, than Romanians, than Dutch+Belgians, than Ukrainians, than French, than others

SS was not containing Poles and saying that Poles with Germans were organizing killing Jews during Holocaust -what said boss of FBI - is total lie

victims of holocaust are mainly 3 groups: Jews, Poles, Russian prisoners of war, words of FBI boss and similiar - always cause huge outrage in my country

Edited April 23, 2015 by vilas

[oxmox 73]

What about you open a thread about Poland, dont think this has much in common with US defence & foreign politics.

[vilas 473]

it is about what Boss of FBI said and what some US schools teach probably, it is about US foreign affairs, whole case is because of guy who is head of US Federal Bureau of Investigations

[mistyronin 1181]

Big mistake.

(New York Times) 2 Qaeda Hostages Were Accidentally Killed in U.S. Strike, White House Says

President Obama on Thursday offered an emotional apology for the accidental killing of two hostages held by Al Qaeda, one of them American, in a United States government counterterrorism operation in January, saying he takes “full responsibility†for their deaths.

“As president and as commander in chief, I take full responsibility for all our counterterrorism operations,†including the one that inadvertently took the lives of the two captives, a grim-faced Mr. Obama said in a statement to reporters in the White House briefing room.

“I profoundly regret what happened,†he added. “On behalf of the U.S. government, I offer our deepest apologies to the families.â€

Mr. Obama’s remarks came shortly after the White House released an extraordinary statement revealing that intelligence officials had confirmed that Warren Weinstein, an American held by Al Qaeda since 2011, and Giovanni Lo Porto, an Italian held since 2012, died during a drone strike . The White House did not explain why it has taken three months to disclose the episode, although it typically takes some weeks after a strike to confirm the identities of casualties.

[oxmox 73]

Spy shocker:CIA cooperated with Chinese intelligence to target Russia

A recently published book by former Pentagon official Michael Pillsbury has shed light on one of the U.S. government’s darkest secrets: cooperation between the CIA and communist Chinese intelligence services.

Covert CIA-China cooperation was part of successive administrations’ programs to undermine the Soviet Union, which China turned on after realizing Moscow’s Marxist-Leninist economic model was doomed. China instead began courting the United States for economic benefit while creating a revised communist economic system.

The disclosures of clandestine U.S.-China intelligence cooperation dating to the 1970s are likely to embarrass Beijing. China frequently attacks the CIA for allegedly fomenting democratic revolution in China and for supporting the exiled Tibetan leader the Dalai Lama, whom China designated as a major enemy. Beijing also accused the CIA of organizing the recent large-scale pro-democracy demonstrations in Hong Kong. The U.S. government has denied any role in the public outcry over creeping Chinese control over the former British colony.

The joint operations included the major electronic spying program in China, code-named Chestnut, that targeted the Soviet Union and now Russia, as well as covert shipments of Chinese arms to Afghan rebels battling Soviet forces and anti-Cuban rebels in Angola.

The disclosures that are said to have upset Beijing the most, however, were related to a CIA-led operation to arm 50,000 anti-Vietnam rebels in Cambodia beginning in 1982. Initially, $2 million a year was spent, and then the amount was increased to $12 million and jointly conducted with Chinese assistance with Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore.

China, according to the book, supported Afghan rebel attacks inside the Soviet Union until CIA lawyers ended the strikes as overly provocative.

The Reagan administration also assisted China’s development of technology with large infusions of know-how under a secret directive that was designed to make China strong. Military aid was cut off after the June 1989 Tiananmen Square attacks, but other aid continued.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/23/cia-worked-china-intelligence-against-russia/

[vilas 473]

CIA had in past many operations which can be called evil (drug cartels founding) at least US investigated it (opposite to USSR and NKVD/KGB operations), i just would like to know - what role in Southern American countries played US CIA in 40s, 50s,

reason is simple - all nazis escaped and found shelter in Argentine, Chile ,

many SS-men instead of found justice (gallows) lived in peace till they died from old age in 60s, 70s, 80s, moreover, there were organizations led by their children helping SS like organization led by Himmler's daughter

was it controlled by US CIA or Southern American states were independent that time and played their cards ?

cause nazi brains (like V2 constructor) was working later for USA in space programm

[oxmox 73]

CIA had in past many operations which can be called evil (drug cartels founding) at least US investigated it (opposite to USSR and NKVD/KGB operations), i just would like to know - what role in Southern American countries played US CIA in 40s, 50s,

reason is simple - all nazis escaped and found shelter in Argentine, Chile ,

many SS-men instead of found justice (gallows) lived in peace till they died from old age in 60s, 70s, 80s, moreover, there were organizations led by their children helping SS like organization led by Himmler's daughter

was it controlled by US CIA or Southern American states were independent that time and played their cards ?

cause nazi brains (like V2 constructor) was working later for USA in space programm

The CIA was actually formed in 1947. The knowledge of the Gehlen Organisation did contribute, and the US did profit from the knowledge of the former german leader of the military secret service Fremde Heere Ost. This was probably a part of the Operation Paper Clip, where thousands of former highly professionals, amongst them also Nazis, did share their knowledge and worked for the United States.

Btw, the Soviet Union did aswell bring in highly educated german professionals. The germans in this time were in general very advanced with all kind of technologies and their knowledge did play a huge role in many areas until nowadays.

"Secrets of the CIA" aired by SKY - UK TV

Thats an interesting documentary if you want to have an overview about some of the CIA operations in the last decades

since the organisation was founded.

Reinhard Gehlen - The CIA & The Nazis (History Channel Documentary)

Edited April 23, 2015 by oxmox

[vilas 473]

another US issue:

company Mattel Inc (barbie doll makers) made 'educational" game about WW2 with ... Nazi Poland

another show of something which is wrong in US system of education (or miseducation):

http://www.thenews.pl/1/2/Artykul/204609,Mattel-under-fire-for-Nazi-Poland-game

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/usa-w-popularnej-grze-firmy-mattel-mowa-o-nazistowskiej-polsce/nwj577

http://www.gazetaprawna.pl/artykuly/867539,firma-mattel-uczy-w-swojej-grze-o-nazistowskiej-polsce.html

they say about rescuing Jews from "Nazi Poland"

wtf

soon in USA they will say that Third Reich was not German republic but Polish state

https://twitter.com/germannazicamps

there is even profile on Twitter made by someone to show that it was Germans who made Third Reich - that follows such things

Germans made WW2, not Poland , shame that we have to return to it in 2015, cause there is campaign to wash history in the west it seems

shame that after so many years from WW2 now people in USA start showing that death camps were made by Poland not by Third Reich

and our Ministry of Foreign Affairs calls to write on Twitter of Mattel Inc company

http://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/wydarzenia/artykuly/488758,grzegorz-schetyna-o-grze-apples-to-apples-firmy-mattel-i-nazi-poland.html

even wikipedia says:

Nazism (/ˈnaËtsɪzᵊm/, alternatively spelled Naziism),[1] or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), is the ideology and practice of the German Nazi Party and state

Edited April 24, 2015 by vilas

[froggyluv 2130]

Don't worry Vilas, 90% of us 'Mericans know this to be at least 80% false.

[oxmox 73]

i just would like to know - what role in Southern American countries played US CIA in 40s, 50s,

reason is simple - all nazis escaped and found shelter in Argentine, Chile ,

many SS-men instead of found justice (gallows) lived in peace till they died from old age in 60s, 70s, 80s, moreover, there were organizations led by their children helping SS like organization led by Himmler's daughter

was it controlled by US CIA or Southern American states were independent that time and played their cards ?

Immigration of Nazis in South America

Some countries in Southamerica were symphatetic and favoured the Axis i.e. Peron in Argentinia, there was also a bigger german community in South America due to the immigration waves in the early 19th century, Nazis could live anonym and assimilate in such communities without giving away their past. There are no precise numbers how many Nazis did immigrate into Southamerica, I did read that up to 10.000 did flee to South America after the war, amongst them around 800 higher ranked NS officials to Argentinia using so called "Ratlines".

click me

NS-Criminals could feel secure in South America for longer because of the military dicatorships in such countries i.e. Chile Pinochet Regime, Peron Argentinia, xxx,....

The school of Latin America's dictators (Report from TheGuardian)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/nov/18/us-military-usa

When it comes to South America, there are other intersting things like the "School of the Americas"; Georgia, USA..

Founded in the Panama Canal Zone in 1948, it was originally named the Army Caribbean School. It was renamed the School of Americas in 1963, and a new curriculum was introduced, offering courses in counter-insurgency, military intelligence and psychological warfare.

In this institute at least 11 latin american dictators have been attended its courses and more than 60.000 latin american soldiers have been trained.

"Training manuals used at the School of the Americas were declassified in 1996. They advocated the use of "fear, payment of bounties for enemy dead, beatings, false, imprisonment, executions and use of truth serum", according to a Pentagon memorandum. The manuals also included detailed interrogation techniques and used the term "neutralisation", which the department of defence admits is a euphemism for illegal execution."

Famous graduates of the School of the Americas, dictators from South American countries amongst them:

Argentinia: Roberto Eduardo Viola, Jorge Rafael Videla, Leopoldo Galtieri,

Bolivia: Hugo Banzer Suarez, Luis Arce Goumez

Chile: Raul Iturragia, Manuel Contreras

Ecuador: Guillermo Rodríguez

El Salvador: Roberto D'Aubuisson

Gambia: Yahya Jammeh

Guatemala: Marco Antonio Yon Sosa, Efraín Ríos Montt, Otto Pérez Molina

Mexico: The Zetas Cartel founders Heriberto 'The Executioner' Lazcano and Arturo 'Zeta One' Guzmán Decena

Panama: Manuel Noriega

Peru: Vladimiro Montesinos, Juan Velasco Alvarado

more with background infos about the school and about the persons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation

Edited April 25, 2015 by oxmox

[vilas 473]

there was in French TV "Planete" document about this school , i knew it , now when i connect those 2 things - probably ex SSmen were training there (cause who loved tortures like them) , so after war probably there have been cooperation of CIA with former SS officers on terrain of Argentine, Chile

probably all human-experiments criminals (workers of Mengele) were later working for ...

Edited April 25, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

I thing you are mixing different facts.

- Was there an school in the US to form Latin-Americans military figures. Yes, the "Escuela de las Americas" was a reality, and the tactics shown there were not precisely nice.

- Nazi high ranks and officers that escaped to Argentina and Chile, that's another reality due to the sympathetic regimes there. Nothing to do with the "Escuela de las Americas" nor with the US.

- The US collected former Third Reich experts & technology. That's true, in the same way as other countries like the USSR or UK, but not related to the exiles, etc.

[oxmox 73]

I thing you are mixing different facts.

- Was there an school in the US to form Latin-Americans military figures. Yes, the "Escuela de las Americas" was a reality, and the tactics shown there were not precisely nice.

- Nazi high ranks and officers that escaped to Argentina and Chile, that's another reality due to the sympathetic regimes there. Nothing to do with the "Escuela de las Americas" nor with the US.

- The US collected former Third Reich experts & technology. That's true, in the same way as other countries like the USSR or UK, but not related to the exiles, etc.

Well, Nazis did feel secure because of the dictatorships in South America far away from prosecutions.

The US did overthrow governments in latin america, supported right wing dictators, organisations and powerful people who were trained in their own facilities. It sounds that actually these continously dicatorships were a save heaven for such Nazi immigrants.

I remember that you were suggesting that Russia nowadays is the biggest right wing supporter since WW2, actually thats questionable since the allies, especially the US and also UK, were supporting right wing governments, right wing extremist groups & (Neo-)Nazis around the world. It was part of the strategy, to fight the spread of communism.

As a side note:

Actually, some countries of the allies had aswell other reasons to stymied efforts to hunt and prosecute these criminals......

War Crimes: How Nazis Escaped Justice in South America (SPIEGEL report)

After World War II, dozens of Nazi criminals went into hiding in South America. A new study reveals how a 'coalition of the unwilling' on both sides of the Atlantic successfully stymied efforts to hunt and prosecute these criminals for decades.

As a result of these breakdowns, all three of these Nazi thugs were never tried in German courts after the war. Wagner, the "beast" of Sobibor, died in São Paulo, Mengele drowned in Brazil, and Rauff died of a heart attack in Chile. Of the hundreds of guilty Nazi officials and mass murderers who had fled to South America after the surrender of Nazi Germany, only a handful of them were ever held to account.

How could so many criminals manage to go unpunished, even though they were clearly guilty?

The work supplies a certain and disgraceful answer to what has long been suspected: that there was a broad coalition of people -- across continents and within the courts, police, governments and administrations -- that was unwilling to act or even thwarted the prosecution of Nazi criminals for decades.

more......

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/new-book-explores-how-so-many-nazis-escaped-justice-in-south-america-a-879101.html

Edited April 25, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The US did overthrow governments in latin america, supported right wing dictators, organisations and powerful people who were trained in their own facilities. It sounds that actually these continously dicatorships were a save heaven for such Nazi immigrants.

It's true. But these two facts are not directly connected between them. Did you know that in the cities where there are more Christian priests there are more assassinations? (true fact BTW)... Should we conclude that Christian priests promote assassinations? :rolleyes:

I remember that you were suggesting that Russia nowadays is the biggest right wing supporter since WW2, actually thats questionable since the allies, especially the US and also UK, were supporting right wing governments, right wing extremist groups & (Neo-)Nazis around the world. It was part of the strategy, to fight the spread of communism.

I'm afraid you don't get the meaning of the word nowadays.

Nowadays (adverb)

At the present time, in contrast with the past.

It's true that in the past (50-70s) the US promoted right-wing regimes around the World (South American dictatorships, like Pinochet, in Europe Franco, etc.) to counter the expansion of Communism (at that time Russia/USSR was promoting all kinds of awful left-wing regimes).

But nowadays (2000-2015), the country that is promoting right-wing movements around the World is Russia. In addition, Russia also funds and assists other authoritarian regimes from other nature than facism.

Edited April 25, 2015 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

The point was "since ww2" ...but nvm.

They are not directly connected, it was probably rather an obscure side effect since dictatorships were supported.

Sure Russia has economical relations, funding and assists other authoritarian regimes like other western nations, thats a part of our existing world and the game around power & influence, interests & markets.

Well, they did not only pomote right wing regimes and not just until the 50-70´s. For example in Europe such strategy was allegedly followed until the 80´s i.e. right wing paramilitary groups. The sad part is that supported right wing terror by these groups targeted also own people i.e. with bomb attacks in public.

Edited April 25, 2015 by oxmox

[oxmox 73]

New Way the U.S. Projects Power Around the Globe: Commandos (Wall Street Journal)

Over the past year, special-operations forces have landed in 81 countries,

mostly to train local troops to fight so Americans don’t have to.....

.....Such scenes play out around the world, evidence of how the U.S. has come to rely on elite military units to maintain its global dominance.

These days, the sun never sets on America’s special-operations forces. Over the past year, they have landed in 81 countries, most of them training local commandos to fight so American troops don’t have to.

From Honduras to Mongolia, Estonia to Djibouti, U.S. special operators teach local soldiers diplomatic skills to shield their countries against extremist ideologies, as well as combat skills to fight militants who break through.

President Barack Obama, as part of his plan to shrink U.S. reliance on traditional warfare, has promised to piece together a web of such alliances from South Asia to the Sahel.

Faced with mobile enemies working independently of foreign governments, the U.S. military has scattered small, nimble teams in many places, rather than just maintaining large forces in a few.

Navy SEALs and Army Green Berets, for example, are stationed in the Baltics, training elite troops from Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia for the type of proxy warfare Russia has conducted in the Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

U.S. forces are also winding down what they consider a successful campaign, begun soon after the Sept. 11 hijackings, to help Filipino forces stymie the al Qaeda-aligned Abu Sayyaf Group. And commanders believe U.S. training of Colombian troops helped turn the tide against rebels and drug traffickers.

But the vast majority of special-operations missions involve coaxing and coaching foreign forces to combat extremists the U.S. considers threats.

One skeptic, James Carafano, vice president for defense and foreign policy at the conservative Heritage Foundation, said relying on special-operations forces was akin to saying, “I’m not going to do brain surgery because I’m going to give you an aspirin. The world doesn’t work that way.â€

Commandos can hunt down enemy leaders or train small indigenous units, Mr. Carafano said, but they alone can’t build a capable national army.

The allied nations included the U.K., Spain, Italy, Belgium, Germany, Denmark and others that over the past decade have forged a global special-operations network, primarily by training local forces together in Afghanistan. Lithuania and Latvia sent observers to Chad this year, raising the possibility the nations will join next year’s exercises in Senegal.

U.S. special operators are encouraged to learn local culture, language and politics as they report on a country’s vulnerability to extremists. “This isn’t spying—this is armed anthropologyâ€

more:

http://www.wsj.com/article_email/sun-never-sets-on-u-s-commandos-1429887473-lMyQjAxMTE1MDIyNDMyODQ1Wj

Edited April 27, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

These days, the sun never sets on America’s special-operations forces. Over the past year, they have landed in 81 countries, most of them training local commandos to fight so American troops don’t have to.

[...]

But the vast majority of special-operations missions involve coaxing and coaching foreign forces to combat extremists the U.S. considers threats.

Point one: One of the main goals of US spec ops units its precisely to train foreign armies. That's why for instance US Army's Special Forces operators have to learn different languages during their training. No surprise here.

Point two: I'm pretty sure they acted in more than those 81 countries.

Point three: You paint it (with your bolded statements) as if the US Spec Ops trains foreign armies to fight for the USA benefit only, when it's not true. The training is to fight common enemies or in order to improve their Allies military capacities, so the US don't have to be the 7th of Cavalry when something goes wrong.

[oxmox 73]

Point one: One of the main goals of US spec ops units its precisely to train foreign armies. That's why for instance US Army's Special Forces operators have to learn different languages during their training. No surprise here.

Point two: I'm pretty sure they acted in more than those 81 countries.

Point three: You paint it (with your bolded statements) as if the US Spec Ops trains foreign armies to fight for the USA benefit only, when it's not true. The training is to fight common enemies or in order to improve their Allies military capacities, so the US don't have to be the 7th of Cavalry when something goes wrong.

....bolded are some of the sentences and essence from this news report besides the examples given in the full article, thats it.

Edited April 28, 2015 by oxmox

[vilas 473]

[TheMightyKovacs 6]

http://www.eielson.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123447394

For anyone unaware of Red Flag-Alaska, it's basically a large scale training exercise involving mostly NATO and some other allies to the United States sponsored by the Pacific Air Forces. I will, at some point, figure out who in particular is here. I know the Canadian's for sure, but I believe the Polish may be here as well. I think it's kinda cool seeing all the different people, not so cool having to make food for the large influx of people though ;). Anyway, thought I'd just throw that out there.

Edited May 9, 2015 by themightykovacs

[oxmox 73]

Marco Rubio - United States Senator from Florida

On April 13, 2015, Rubio announced his candidacy for president in 2016 and that he would not seek re-election to his Senate seat.

A member of the Republican Party, he previously served as Speaker of the Florida House of Representatives.

Rubio is part of the conservatives of the Republican Party and neocons centre hopes in his foreign politics........

Marco Rubio says US not the 'world police' but must intervene more (The Guardian)

Republican presidential hopeful tells Council on Foreign Relations only US can lead resistance to Islamic State,

Chinese expansionism and Russian aggression

Marco Rubio filled a lecture hall at the Council on Foreign Relations with imagery about warships, fighter jets and weapons shipments in an appearance on Wednesday to lay out his vision for a significantly more muscular US foreign policy – one that he said would prevent a global descent into “chaos†but stop short of making America the “world’s policemanâ€.

“When we fail to lead with strength and principle there is no other country, friend or foe, that is willing or able to take our place. And the result is chaos.â€

While most of the policy prescriptions Rubio made on Wednesday – arm the Ukrainian military, pull back from negotiations with Iran, increase air strikes in Iraq, increase naval activity in the China Sea, reverse the “normalization†of relations with Cuba – were hawkish in nature, on the most hotly contested foreign policy issue of the last decade – the Iraq war – the candidate seemed to reverse himself in the direction of restraint.

During his run for the US Senate in Florida in 2010 Rubio was asked whether the Iraq war had made the United States “safer and better offâ€. “I think ultimately yes,†Rubio said, “because Saddam Hussein is no longer in charge.â€

Rubio seemed to contradict that view on Wednesday when moderator Charlie Rose asked whether he would have been in favor of the Iraqi invasion “after finding out that there were no weapons of mass destructionâ€.

Likely Rubio presidential opponent Jeb Bush had told a questioner days earlier that “knowing what we know nowâ€, he still “would have†authorized the 2003 invasion of Iraq had he been president. Bush later said he had misunderstood the question.

The speech fed perceptions that Rubio, who recently backed an amendment that would have crippled the Iran nuclear negotiations and who vehemently opposes the “normalization†of relations with Cuba, has raised the temperature of his foreign policy views in recent months, possibly with an eye on the proclivities of Republican primary voters.

In the world view Rubio outlined Wednesday, which he billed as a new doctrine, certain regional conflicts that look very difficult – the ongoing war in Syria, the failed state of Libya – in fact began as tractable problems that spun out of control due to tragic US negligence. Other regional conflicts that look very difficult, meanwhile – the demise of a two-state solution for Israel-Palestine, for example – Rubio presented as every bit as confounding as they seem, with the United States powerless to act.

“Most threatening of all,†Rubio said, “we have seen Iran expand its influence throughout the Middle East, and threaten to annihilate Israel, as it moves closer to a nuclear weapon capability.

Asked whether he considered Iran as dangerous as Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu seems to, Rubio replied: “I view them as the same threat he does. The difference is, he lives a lot closer to them than I do.â€

Rubio offered a similar prescription for flashpoints in Ukraine, the Gulf and the Pacific, describing a need for gestures that would demonstrate a US willingness to defend its interests with military might. Such a gesture might be directed at China, which Rubio accused of arrogating territory near Japan and the Philippines.

Rubio called for increasing airstrikes against Isis militants in Iraq, to be supported on the ground by a “pan-Arab Sunni force†including troops supplied by Egyptian President Abdel Fatah al-Sisi, who to many eyes appears to be the kind of “pro-American dictator†that Rubio dismissed as an “oxymoron†in his last outing before the council on foreign relations, in 2012.

After Rubio concluded his prepared remarks, Rose asked him: “Should we be the world’s policeman?â€

“I don’t think that’s necessarily the role that I would advocate,†Rubio replied. “The title is not world policeman.â€

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/14/marco-rubio-says-us-not-the-world-police-but-must-intervene-more

Edited May 15, 2015 by oxmox

[nodunit 397]

Sounds like a warmongerer trying to use fancy words to seem just.

"I don’t think Congress would have voted in favor of the authorization if they didn’t know that.â€

Bullshit, congress would vote for whatever puts money in their pocket.

The only thing he says that makes any sense is that we would need neighboring countries as allies to fight ISIS, it is NOT a US only problem.

Edited May 16, 2015 by NodUnit

[froggyluv 2130]

Fuck Neo-Cons and their 'for profit wars':

Obama takes a lotta flack but he got Bin Laden, is a fuckin straight up killa with terrorists and is obviously smarter than this horses ass.

[oxmox 73]

TTIP & EU - Energy dependency on Russia (WallStreetJournal, May 17th)

EU Wants U.S. to Lift Ban on Oil Exports

The European Union is increasing pressure on Washington to include an energy chapter in a planned trans-Atlantic trade deal that would allow U.S. exports of natural gas and oil and reduce the bloc’s dependency on Russia.

In an interview with The Wall Street Journal, Maros Sefcovic, the EU’s energy chief, said that easing flows of liquefied natural gas and crude oil from the U.S. to the EU is one of the bloc’s goals for the trans-Atlantic trade and investment partnership, or TTIP, that is currently under negotiation. The U.S. has so far resisted an energy chapter in TTIP, but the shale-gas boom in the U.S. and the EU’s trouble with Russia have pushed the issue into focus.

In an interview with The Wall Street Journal, Maros Sefcovic, the EU’s energy chief, said that easing flows of liquefied natural gas and crude oil from the U.S. to the EU is one of the bloc’s goals for the trans-Atlantic trade and investment partnership, or TTIP, that is currently under negotiation. The U.S. has so far resisted an energy chapter in TTIP, but the shale-gas boom in the U.S. and the EU’s trouble with Russia have pushed the issue into focus.

Apart from seeking out alternative suppliers to Russia, which currently provides almost one-third of the EU’s gas, that means breaking down long-standing barriers between the EU’s national energy markets.

Fossil-fuel exports from the U.S. have been restricted for decades. Yet growing internal production of oil and gas has eased some of Washington’s concerns over energy independence and the Energy Information Administration believes the U.S. will become a net gas exporter in 2017.

In recent years, the Energy Department has granted long-term gas-export licenses to six U.S. gas projects, which will eventually be able to sell 8.61 billion cubic feet (240 million cubic meters) of gas a day. At the same time, the U.S. oil industry is lobbying to lift the ban on oil exports, hoping that new markets would boost prices.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-wants-u-s-to-lift-ban-on-oil-exports-1431885401

Edited May 20, 2015 by oxmox