doubledizz 10 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Hi, thanks for clicking. I want to talk about ARMA mods based on storytelling and those aimed around shared conflict in hostile environments; specifically, how the unique gameplay mechanics coded for these mods are drowning under the relentless simplicity of ARMA's PVP foundations and maybe trigger conversation about what modders can do to help those playing theirs mod gather richer experiences and stories from their mod. INTRODUCTION So we have a few robust mods out there now that are set in hostile environments. I don't want to just say "zombie mods" (even though these are the biggest example) because this could relate to other mods than aren't necessarily about zombies. These mods are being built by great coders and artists, who are striving to push what ARMA can be about. But even with all their creativity, a lot of these mods are unable to escape what is inevitably "PVP game modes with distractions turned on". Before I really get into it, I'd better mention Breaking Point. Breaking Point's faction system has shown what is needed to let player's live a little bit longer in a hostile environment (yeah that what’s I'm calling them now) mod. I applaud what the creators have done there and in no way am saying that their work has not succeeded. What I'm talking about below is a way that modders can offer players a pathway to a much greater, more fulfilling experience. A storied experience. STORY-BUILDING IN HOSTILE ENVIRONMENTS Since the inception of DayZ we have proven, when left that our own devices, the unprovoked killing of other players is something that is inevitable. However, to build a great narrative for every player, a game must have a system in place that limits the meaningless act of unprovoked slaughter. One of the general issues I see with mods founded on a non-PVP idea (whether it be Zombies or a Life-Sim) is that the game does not restrict indiscriminate killing. A lot of people here will ask "how could it?" And that's my cue to say this: Provocation. To restrict indiscriminate killing, a mod must use a system based on the tracking of player provocation and rules therein, dictating what is allowed to pass across the server. Every TV show that deals with conflict has its own set of imaginary "rules" that dictate what characters can and cannot do to each other. It's these "rules" that are in play whenever you yell "just shoot him! shoot him!" at your TV. These rules are almost always unrealistic, but realism is not their purpose. The rules protect the characters from demise and in turn, let those characters build relationships and stories, which ultimately, are the things that motivate us to continue watching a TV series. These rules also apply in video games, although they look a little different: They're our restart options. How many times did Commander Shepherd die in your Mass Effect? That restart was the game saying "Whoops, that wasn't meant to happen. Let's just turn back time and give that another shot." (I don't think anyone [sane] was yelling "that's not realistic!" when a single player game let them restart at a checkpoint). The restart in single player is there so you can continue the story; your journey. There's no reason an ARMA 3 mod can't have a story too. Those times where we banded with strangers in DayZ; that was a story. But in the current play of things, those moments are the exception, not the rule. And they don't need to be. A rule system based on provocation can work in a PVP-style mod like DayZ or Breaking Point. Here is how: AMBUSH Most PVP engagements in these survivalist/bandit mods initiate from an ambush. A shot is fired, someone dies quickly or soon thereafter. This method of gameplay does not lend itself to good storytelling. The solution: An unprovoked shot does not hit anything. Provocation must be established before players can kill each other. "How does provocation occur?" PROVOCATION ARMA already has an enemy spotted function. "Man, 200 meters, front". This function is a good way for a mod to determine when a player can see another player. Change the viewing distance of this function to 200M and you create a system that the mod can use to track "initiation". Once initiation has occurred, the players actions can dictate if the situation escalates to a conflict state. - Does one player keep approaching another? - Is there gun raised? - Are they communicating in-game (VOIP/chat)? And in contrast, are they de-escalating the situation: - trading items/map markers - initiate buddy system The whole point of this example is that there are ways to stop unprovoked ambush and killing, which increase the chance for players to win a rewarding experience and have a story to remember in the process "DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING!" For those that enjoy the hunt and kill of human construct: there's always going to be mods for that. I'm not saying they should disappear. But just imagine that instead of instantly killing some random player, you actually initiate a rivalry that forces direct interaction. There's more chess to that encounter than a bullet in the back of the head. EDIT: I have more to write! But I've run out of time today. Please respond so I know someone has read this haha. Will write more soon if requested. Edited March 16, 2015 by doubleDizz addendum Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fluttershy 2 Posted March 16, 2015 Most mods - or rather Addons are only adding additional functions or assets that work in any type of playmode. I think you are more thinking about a Mission than an actual Mod. Surely some bigger Assets come with Showcase Missions but that is mostly about it. We as addon creators simply add features and assets to the base game that we think are missing for our personal enjoyment, or the communites enjoyment. The problem you are talking about above is not an issue with the systems in place in DayZ or other Surival Missions, where the majority of the interaction and gameplay is Player driven. It is the Players themself and the evolution of a player set in such enviorement for to long. People will beginn to play players they just met until they get killed by that player, they might repeat the process 2 or 3 times until they will shot everyone on sight. I am sorry to see that you are obviousely one of the very few people looking for a good gameplay experience and player interaction in such gamemodes.... good luck, you will need it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PuFu 4600 Posted March 16, 2015 How i love these sort of posts, where the writter takes upon himself to put down rules for others to follow for his own enjoyment. I also enjoy a lot the simple things in such posts: the fact that they have no idea what a mission, an addon and a mod is, and the differences betwem those. Same love goes for the fact that dayz is used as an example. But most of all i love the fact that every single "idea guy" is just as certain that things should be the way he describes them, as he is that someone else should do it, he being well above the ones that he calls generic "modders". This community surely needs more of those ideas guys. I am personally full of love for this category, as exemplified above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
serjames 357 Posted March 16, 2015 That's a litte Harsh PuFu... you might not agree with his post - but you could critique it in a slightly less patronising way and probably get a better response..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Redphoenix 1540 Posted March 16, 2015 serjames said: That's a litte Harsh PuFu... you might not agree with his post - but you could critique it in a slightly less patronising way and probably get a better response..... Well, truth must be spoken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jackal326 1182 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) serjames said: That's a litte Harsh PuFu... you might not agree with his post - but you could critique it in a slightly less patronising way and probably get a better response..... To be honest I didn't think it was harsh enough... I'd have been more persuaded to take these "ideas" on board (read: No I wouldn't) if this post had been accompanied by a mission/addon made by 'doubleDizz', rather than this just being what one could categorise as another "rant thread". As its not discussing a WIP addon this thread will get locked anyway. Edited March 16, 2015 by Jackal326 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SAMstudios-3Dartist 45 Posted March 16, 2015 I wondering when DayZ was becoming the "new" that all modders should follow and become the example how arma mods should be. Well I only been here since OFP time. What do I know? :cool: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fluttershy 2 Posted March 16, 2015 Zsalheden said: I wondering when DayZ was becoming the "new" that all modders should follow and become the example how arma mods should be. Well I only been here since OFP time. What do I know? :cool: That was somewhere arround the time call of duty kept repeating itself like Madden, now people realised that repeating the same malarkey over and over is the way to a successful title. Therefor lets all work together and make this Military Simulator as much of a Survive XYZ as possible. Oh and i will contribute good will and long paragraphs of pointless text too! Lets work together and make this the best "not what it is supposed to be" there is!!! BOOYAAAAH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
serjames 357 Posted March 16, 2015 Oops, forgot I was typing on the BIS ARMA Forums for a moment.... :) Well I retract my statement... I guess I live in a fluffy world where people's opinions are treated with interest - naively or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jackal326 1182 Posted March 16, 2015 serjames said: Oops, forgot I was typing on the BIS ARMA Forums for a moment.... :)Well I retract my statement... I guess I live in a fluffy world where people's opinions are treated with interest - naively or not. There is a difference between having opinions, and trying to convert other people to your own way of thinking. People make addons/missions/campaigns/whatever in a way that they want to, or to contain a subject matter that interests them. They do not go on a forum and read about how someone wants ArmA3 to be, and then shape their work around that (unless they agree with that mindset, in which case they would have probably already been working towards that goal anyway). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
serjames 357 Posted March 16, 2015 Hmm.. I didn't interpret his post as forcing opinions, at all in fact - he was simply discussing what could be done differently. Anyway we're all widely off T here So I will defer to the better judgement of all the Veterans out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
das attorney 858 Posted March 16, 2015 Quote "A rule system based on provocation can work in a PVP-style mod like DayZ or Breaking Point" So are you requesting: a) - provocation rules systems for these mods? b) - Completely new mod like these mods with a provocation system built in? Or are you announcing that you are building a new mod with an rpg element/provocation system in? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PuFu 4600 Posted March 16, 2015 serjames said: That's a litte Harsh PuFu... you might not agree with his post - but you could critique it in a slightly less patronising way and probably get a better response..... as previously said, it was a love post. I wasn't patronizing the lad. Besides, how do you know i was actually expecting a response, of any kind? Jackal326 said: To be honest I didn't think it was harsh enough...I'd have been more persuaded to take these "ideas" on board (read: No I wouldn't) if this post had been accompanied by a mission/addon made by 'doubleDizz', rather than this just being what one could categorise as another "rant thread". As its not discussing a WIP addon this thread will get locked anyway. I really think my post was fluffy enough for the internet, and for some users around here that live in a fluffier world than mine... ---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:20 ---------- RedPhoenix said: Well, truth must be spoken. i am the truth carrier mate, no worries Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
serjames 357 Posted March 16, 2015 lol fair enough... :-) Still slightly surprised the post is still alive... I guess until he determines if this is the pre-amble for a mod he's working on, a request, or a discussion thing. J Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x3kj 1247 Posted March 16, 2015 PuFu said: How i love these sort of posts, where the writter takes upon himself to put down rules for others to follow for his own enjoyment. I also enjoy a lot the simple things in such posts: the fact that they have no idea what a mission, an addon and a mod is, and the differences betwem those. Same love goes for the fact that dayz is used as an example. But most of all i love the fact that every single "idea guy" is just as certain that things should be the way he describes them, as he is that someone else should do it, he being well above the ones that he calls generic "modders". This community surely needs more of those ideas guys. I am personally full of love for this category, as exemplified above. Word. Quote I guess I live in a fluffy world where people's opinions are treated with interest - naively or not. How long do you live in the modder world now? Trust me, if you do for any longer period your stance to "idea guys" will change... (note: guys with ideas =! "idea guys") Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Das Attorney said: So are you requesting:a) - provocation rules systems for these mods? b) - Completely new mod like these mods with a provocation system built in? Or are you announcing that you are building a new mod with an rpg element/provocation system in? I also find it difficult to understand what's the point behind this post, and why is it in the Addons & Mods dicussion. The author talks about a random range of subjects that would probably fit better in the A3 General Forum. If it was meant as some kind of addon / mod request, there's already a thread for it: ARMA 3 Addon Request Thread Or was he trying to lecture us all? Edited March 16, 2015 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrSanchez 243 Posted March 16, 2015 Seems to me that this post is his advice to modders intending to create a large multiplayer gamemode and nothing else. Therefore the title is pretty misleading as >85% of the ArmA 3 modders probably have no use as to this post. To the author I'd say; change the title of this thread and make clear that you are spreading your personal opinion and advice. I'm also not sure if the addons&mods discussion forum is the right place to place this. This seems more related to mission suggestions and server administration than addon related. The sarcasm, hate and general dislike of the people posting is more or less appropriate imo because of the vague intentions of this thread. Kind regards, Sanchez Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slatts 1978 Posted March 16, 2015 "ALL MODDERS!" *stumbles to attention* "words words words mission makers words words" *Goes back to slumber* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jinougaf 11 Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) After read this,I wanna to share what I'm now playing in my Coop unit. We have about 2-3 all day MCC missions maker.The server of our unit only start a map with few little FOBs and players spawn in these FOBs, some of them would be in one FOB with others,meanwhile some one would be dispersed.Then the missions makers start to build,and the player would not know what they would face next.For example,we've had a long way story mode of our own since last year,and the story is still continue.At first we were a small group of Australian SOTG task group just arrived on Altis and our task is help a local resistance army to fight with the AAF.But after about 1 year,through a lot of different missions and events in this story,the simple "support the resistance army" task became a big offical intel mission.The reason is,we don't have a strict script of the stories,what would happen next would all depend on the performance of the players in the game and the creative of the missions makers.Like in one mission,at first we were told to meet a resistance army officer to get some intel,but don't know why the AI bug that day and the officer fire to us when we meet him.So the missions maker quickly changed the story,he told us that the officer was in fact a spy of AAF and he set us up.After that mission the story all changed and we have to fight not only the AAF but also the spies from the resistance army.Till now,the similar accident would sometime happen again,some were caused by players' mistakes and some by bugs or faults of the missions makers,but the story still in role and we all enjoy in it. We haven't use any "story mods" like what your said only some weapons , units and vehicles mods,and the story mode works just fine because of the creative of the mission makers and the performance of the players. Edited March 17, 2015 by JinougaF Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doubledizz 10 Posted March 17, 2015 Hi. OP. I want to reply to the people that added to the conversation, they deserve it. But I feel I should firstly respond to the hostile posts I got on the first page. I'm chalking up the people who took offense to what I write as a misunderstanding. I think maybe they probably speed-read my opening paragraph, where I outlined my intent to talk about mods that deal with story-telling and those designed around hostile environments, like those you see in the big "total conversion" addons such as DayZ or Breaking Point (or Epoch or Wasteland or Altis Life or 2017...) I also made a point that I would love to trigger conversation about ways people (sorry if "modders" was taken as a derogatory term) could help foster player experience and stories, by using rules in their addons that support this aim That was my intent. If you think I'm talking junk, please go back and read the initial post. I used the example of a provocation ruleset as an example of one why this could occur. It was an example. In relation to the incorrect are to post. 1) I want to speak with people who create addons, and 2) the forum summary states "This forum is for discussing addons or mods that are currently work in progress, as well as for discussing ideas or requests for addons." The whole conversation is meant to be an idea. The only other thing I'll say, seeing people chose to attack my competency directly; I have some experience with SQL through work, which has helped me build missions in Arma2 but mostly Arma 3 and have a small server I use to play co-op missions with mates using MCC, Alive, RHS (well, this is embarrassing) and a series of weapons, sound and AI addons as well. fluttershy said: The problem you are talking about above is not an issue with the systems in place in DayZ or other Surival Missions, where the majority of the interaction and gameplay is Player driven. It is the Players themself and the evolution of a player set in such enviorement for to long. People will beginn to play players they just met until they get killed by that player, they might repeat the process 2 or 3 times until they will shot everyone on sight.I am sorry to see that you are obviousely one of the very few people looking for a good gameplay experience and player interaction in such gamemodes.... good luck, you will need it. I agree with your points that players act from past experience. Hostile PVP environments with no restraint placed on players, tend to have a devolving effect on communicable interaction. That's why I'd like to talk about ways this can be countered. PVP is fun, but shooter games don't have to be a binary of either PVE or PVP. There is a middle ground that can be found. Jackal326 said: There is a difference between having opinions, and trying to convert other people to your own way of thinking. People make addons/missions/campaigns/whatever in a way that they want to, or to contain a subject matter that interests them. They do not go on a forum and read about how someone wants ArmA3 to be, and then shape their work around that (unless they agree with that mindset, in which case they would have probably already been working towards that goal anyway). You make a good point when you say "people will do what they want to do". I agree; the sun will rise and fall regardless of my opinion on it. But it doesn't mean we can't talk about alternatives to the norm, right? Das Attorney said: So are you requesting:a) - provocation rules systems for these mods? b) - Completely new mod like these mods with a provocation system built in? Or are you announcing that you are building a new mod with an rpg element/provocation system in? I don't have enough experience to build that kind of mod. But if the right kind of person were to see a similar vision, I would offer what time I could to help in any way I could. I'm not jumping on a soapbox, yelling a couple of self-proclaimed commandments, then buying Battlefield Hardline and pissing off. I want an actual discussion about this. I've run out of time again. If the desire to have a conversation about this doesn't exist here, fine. I haven't got many posts here, but my lack of posts doesn't mean I am not passionate about what this community does. I honestly marvel at the things that have been built for this game. I had some opinions; I'll continue the conversation if people deem it interesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Macser 776 Posted March 17, 2015 Hey. Try not to take the responses to heart.They don't represent everyone. I didn't see anything inherently wrong or offensive in your initial post.Ideas are the basis of any content.Especially missions and campaigns,which usually get overlooked in favour of addons.It's a different discipline.And more concept oriented.In fact that might be a more appropriate section for such a thread. It's not the "ideas" that people have the problem with,I think.It's more likely that it's interpreted as a demand for someone else to do the work,while you direct. People do forget themselves occasionally and can be a little disrespectful. I'm not sure why,considering it's just a past-time built around a form of entertainment. You might reconsider the way you title your threads though.Something that reads a little less authoritatively would work better. :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrSanchez 243 Posted March 17, 2015 Maczer said: You might reconsider the way you title your threads though.Something that reads a little less authoritatively would work better. :) ^ this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avfc 10 Posted March 17, 2015 I cant mod or make missions or anything but if i did i dont think i'd particularly like the title for starters, not sure what the intention is but it definitely comes across badly. If you have an idea for how the game could/should be played then make a mission/mod to give people the option but you've basically said "TO ALL MODDERS" this is how it should be done.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CaptainAzimuth 714 Posted March 17, 2015 DayZ, of all examples, is one of the worst things you could mention in an idea. I mean seriously, look at where it's gone. It's proven that it's better as a mod, and it's lead design left his own creation behind. Left for dead (or undead, for that matter [pun intended]), and I think that's one of the main reasons there are now a ton of under aged children playing a Military Sandbox now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warden_1 1070 Posted March 17, 2015 The main reason why the only game mode that has that regroup and plan an attack side to it is Wasteland is because there is no clear group definition in most modes.... I mean in DayZ sure you can kit up with some green clothing and roll as a group but its not like people you interact with there will be seeing you often.... theres a chance you will run into people again but not a good one. TLDR: Its nice that people are looking for that long term game play and plan. Its too bad those people don't ever actually make anything and just want others to do it... Maczer said: You might reconsider the way you title your threads though.Something that reads a little less authoritatively would work better.:) I could not agree more... you have to be careful how you stay stuff online because not everyone will read it the same way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites