Marksmen DLC Weapon Feedback

[x3kj 1247]

I noticed some animation glitches with the bipod

[St. Jimmy 272]

I noticed some animation glitches with the bipod

I just noticed the same guy in the air when deploying on building windows

[Jackal326 1158]

Its gets worse than that:

I'd rather float a foot off of the ground than have my leg broken and twisted up through my torso and shattering my ring-piece.

[razor6014 35]

well start singing .. 99 bugs in the code ... 99 bugs in the code .. you take one down , patch it around .. 127 bugs in the code ...

[nikiforos 450]

Hard job to be a programmer

[Jackal326 1158]

well start singing .. 99 bugs in the code ... 99 bugs in the code .. you take one down , patch it around .. 127 bugs in the code ...

Brilliant!

[agent()()9 18]

I still like the Rahim for the regular CSAT marksman despite the new Cyrus being better.

The advantage of the Rahim is that it is the lightest out of all the DMRs, and more accurate than both the Cyrus and the Mk18 ABR. I consider it a fantastic, underappreciated weapon.

---------- Post added at 18:45 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

•Tweaked: Mass of several weapons to better scale their different weights in regard to their real counterparts according to design.

I like the sound of this! I wish I could see what was changed.

[roberthammer 582]

The advantage of the Rahim is that it is the lightest out of all the DMRs, and more accurate than both the Cyrus and the Mk18 ABR. I consider it a fantastic, underappreciated weapon.

It is true , while the Cyrus should be more accurate - still there is a mass weight issue , dunno if it's a balance between them all or just like that

Time for another chart lol

Weapon - ingame mass - calculated mass from the real life counterpart

Rahim  -100 mass           ;       VS-121 -  100 mass

Mk18   -140 mass           ;       M14 EBR - 112 mass

Mar10  -180 mass           ;       NoreenBN- 130 mass

Mk1EMR -160 mass           ;       Sig 751 - 120 mass

ASP1   -120 mass           ;       VKS/VSS - 154 mass

Cyrus  -160 mass           ;       SVDK -   143 mass

Mk14   -120 mass           ;       M14  -  100 mass

Navid  -220 mass           ;       MG5  -  230 mass

SPMG   -200 mass           ;       LWMMG - 238 mass

M200   -140 mass           ;       KAC LMG- 110 mass

Zafir  -160 mass           ;       IWI NG7- 167 mass

As you can see only Rahim and the Zafir have a proper mass , other guns not much

Edited March 31, 2015 by RobertHammer

[Wolfenswan 1]

This ticket (Legacy 7.62x51 ammo does not work in Zafir) has been assigned for a while but nothing came of it as of yet. Would be good to know if the fix will make it into 1.42 as otherwise I'd start writing a workaround addon.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

It is true , while the Cyrus should be more accurate - still there is a mass weight issue , dunno if it's a balance between them all or just like that

Time for another chart lol

Weapon - ingame mass - calculated mass from the real life counterpart

Rahim  -100 mass           ;       VS-121 -  100 mass

Mk18   -140 mass           ;       M14 EBR - 112 mass

Mar10  -180 mass           ;       NoreenBN- 130 mass

Mk1EMR -160 mass           ;       Sig 751 - 120 mass

ASP1   -120 mass           ;       VKS/VSS - 154 mass

Cyrus  -160 mass           ;       SVDK -   143 mass

Mk14   -120 mass           ;       M14  -  100 mass

Navid  -220 mass           ;       MG5  -  230 mass

SPMG   -200 mass           ;       LWMMG - 238 mass

M200   -140 mass           ;       KAC LMG- 110 mass

Zafir  -160 mass           ;       IWI NG7- 167 mass

As you can see only Rahim and the Zafir have a proper mass , other guns not much

Don't forget that some, if not all the guns are far more different in terms of design either by BIS's model, or caliber, barrel length/size, and such... Some thing's aren't going to be Exactly the same as they aren't exactly the same model, example being the ASP-1 Kir, which is by no means a VSS, as it's chambered in 12.7x54mm, meaning it's not going to weigh the same as one chambered in 9×39mm. I'm pretty sure material's are taken into account as well, and given the Armaverse 2035 scenario... you never know what BIS's using for their production of weapons.

[roberthammer 582]

That's why i used VKS weight which is 7kg - VSS is just there for a mix

[agent()()9 18]

Don't forget that some, if not all the guns are far more different in terms of design either by BIS's model, or caliber, barrel length/size, and such... Some thing's aren't going to be Exactly the same as they aren't exactly the same model, example being the ASP-1 Kir, which is by no means a VSS, as it's chambered in 12.7x54mm, meaning it's not going to weigh the same as one chambered in 9×39mm. I'm pretty sure material's are taken into account as well, and given the Armaverse 2035 scenario... you never know what BIS's using for their production of weapons.

True, but from RobertHammer's chart, they didn't touch any of the Marksman DLC 7.62mm rifles, whose real life counterparts are the same caliber. Some of them are significantly overweight by comparison...Why is this the case? Making the MMGs a little heavier is a step in the right direction, but I don't get why they didn't adjust the mass of the rifles that need the most work.

I don't see much reason to use a super-heavy DMR with a small 20-round magazine, when I can use an equal-weight Zafir. As a matter of fact, carrying one 150-round magazine (40 mass units) weighs less than carrying 140 rounds (seven 20-round magazines=84 mass units) for the DMRs.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Agent()()9

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

True, but from RobertHammer's chart, they didn't touch any of the Marksman DLC 7.62mm rifles, whose real life counterparts are the same caliber. Some of them are significantly overweight by comparison...Why is this the case? Making the MMGs a little heavier is a step in the right direction, but I don't get why they didn't adjust the mass of the rifles that need the most work.

I don't see much reason to use a super-heavy DMR with a small 20-round magazine, when I can use an equal-weight Zafir. As a matter of fact, carrying one 150-round magazine (40 mass units) weighs less than carrying 140 rounds (seven 20-round magazines=84 mass units) for the DMRs.

Ahhh, i see. That does need a fix then.

---------- Post added at 20:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

That's why i used VKS weight which is 7kg - VSS is just there for a mix

Ahhh, ok.

[x3kj 1247]

you could see mass as a combined measure of weight and inventory bulkyness (seeing that we dont have slots like in A2 anymore)...

a 2m bamboo twig might not weight a lot but it won't fit into your backpack... contrary to 10x20cm twigs of same diameter.

Doesnt matter so much for weapons, but you could say so for inventory stuff (mags and gear).

Edited April 1, 2015 by Fennek

[chortles 263]

you could see mass as a combined measure of weight and inventory bulkyness (seeing that we dont have slots like in A2 anymore)...

a 2m bamboo twig might not weight a lot but it won't fit into your backpack... contrary to 10x20cm twigs of same diameter.

Doesnt matter so much for weapons, but you could say so for inventory stuff (mags and gear).

Correct, but without a hard and fast formula from BI for just how they derived the "inventory capacity/encumbrance-affecting" units-of-weight/size...

[x3kj 1247]

by making it, choosing some values for items that define the system and (re)adjust everything else accordingly... it's an abstract thing, just like hitpoints or threat values.

[probad 44]

But we do have bulk, and bulk is separate from mass.

I mean lets not try to convince ourselves its anything other than a balancing thing to make DMRs expensive to have too many of in a squad.

[Jackal326 1158]

Correct, but without a hard and fast formula from BI for just how they derived the "inventory capacity/encumbrance-affecting" units-of-weight/size...

Weight of Real-Life item in KG x 22 = "Ingame Mass"

It all depends on where they source the "weight of real-life counterpart" as to how accurate the end result is...

[pettka 694]

Weight of Real-Life item in KG x 22 = "Ingame Mass"

The actual formula is more complex, as is for example the hit formula for ammo, but this one has roughly correct results :icon_twisted:

[roberthammer 582]

The actual formula is more complex, as is for example the hit formula for ammo, but this one has roughly correct results :icon_twisted:

Show us the actual formula then , also slap the guy who made this mass

;)

---------- Post added at 09:51 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

But we do have bulk, and bulk is separate from mass.

I mean lets not try to convince ourselves its anything other than a balancing thing to make DMRs expensive to have too many of in a squad.

Volume and weight are together in the A3 mass value , which makes things inaccurate in terms of weight and size of the thing

• Mass is a new unit used to describe weight and volume of an object used. Each container has a set capacity in the same units.
  

Edited April 1, 2015 by RobertHammer

[agent()()9 18]

The actual formula is more complex, as is for example the hit formula for ammo, but this one has roughly correct results :icon_twisted:

Thank you for taking the time to reply, pettka. Would you agree that if you are using "mass units" as an abstract unit to take both weight and bulkiness into account, then it shouldn't be the only variable that affects a soldier's encumbrance level? For example: Weapon A and weapon B both have a mass unit value of X. Weapon A is lighter but more bulky. Weapon B is heavier, but less bulky. Does whatever formula you use for encumbrance take this into account? Weapon A and weapon B should NOT increase a soldier's encumbrance by the same amount. Weapon A should be less of a burden for that soldier, but I suspect that it is not.

If weapon A and B add to encumbrance equally, then an unrealistic situation exists, which gives weapon B an unfair advantage. In the current dev build, weapon A would be one of the overly-heavy DMRs, while weapon B would be the M200 or Zafir. There is no advantage for carrying a lighter weapon that has the same mass unit value as a weapon that is heavier in real life. In other words, there is no good reason to use some of the mass unit-heavy DMRs over the equally-massed LMGs. With the encumbrance effects being equal, the advantages of the LMG (rate of fire, volume of fire) will win over a DMR's advantages every time. This makes weapon choice less authentic, and dilutes the distinct advantage of the DMR being less encumbering.

---------- Post added at 13:43 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------

Going along with the above: What does it matter if an LMG has more inertia and less accuracy, if I can just spam a hundred rounds to compensate for the lack of aim speed or accuracy? The only true advantage the DMR has of being easier to lug around, isn't represented.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Agent()()9

[x3kj 1247]

Volume and weight are together in the A3 mass value , which makes things inaccurate in terms of weight and size of the thing

Why does it need to be that precise? The encumbrance limit isn't precise either because it doesnt exist in real life, it varies for every human beeing. The rate of how your stamina decreases doesnt exist either. It's abstract and simplified, because it's a game. It's not a scientific biomechanic simulation of the human body.

I can understand that there is the urge to give stuff their weight value precise to the milligram, because it's possible... However, having it like that wouldnt make any difference whatsoever, other then to satisfy this urge of "having more precision" . If the rest of the equation isn't/can't be precise, one precise value in the equation won't make it any better.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Fennek

[razor6014 35]

Why does it need to be that precise? The encumbrance limit isn't precise either because it doesnt exist in real life, it varies for every human beeing. The rate of how your stamina decreases doesnt exist either. It's abstract and simplified, because it's a game. It's not a scientific biomechanic simulation of the human body.

I can understand that there is the urge to give stuff their weight value precise to the milligram, because it's possible... However, having it like that wouldnt make any difference whatsoever, other then to satisfy this urge of "having more precision" . If the rest of the equation isn't/can't be precise, one precise value in the equation won't make it any better.

while everyone has different limits im sure most military branches have a certain cut as in

... if your in the SAS and you cant carry X kilos over Y kilometers in Z time .. goodbye

[roberthammer 582]

Why does it need to be that precise? The encumbrance limit isn't precise either because it doesnt exist in real life, it varies for every human beeing. The rate of how your stamina decreases doesnt exist either. It's abstract and simplified, because it's a game. It's not a scientific biomechanic simulation of the human body.

I can understand that there is the urge to give stuff their weight value precise to the milligram, because it's possible... However, having it like that wouldnt make any difference whatsoever, other then to satisfy this urge of "having more precision" . If the rest of the equation isn't/can't be precise, one precise value in the equation won't make it any better.

It doesn't need to be EXACT precise as the real thing ,but don't say that the Mk-1 EMR should have same weight as the Zafir machine gun ...

it just feel wrong

Edited April 1, 2015 by RobertHammer

[agent()()9 18]

Why does it need to be that precise? The encumbrance limit isn't precise either because it doesnt exist in real life, it varies for every human beeing. The rate of how your stamina decreases doesnt exist either. It's abstract and simplified, because it's a game. It's not a scientific biomechanic simulation of the human body.

I can understand that there is the urge to give stuff their weight value precise to the milligram, because it's possible... However, having it like that wouldnt make any difference whatsoever, other then to satisfy this urge of "having more precision" . If the rest of the equation isn't/can't be precise, one precise value in the equation won't make it any better.

As RobertHammer said, it really doesn't have to be that precise. I don't care exactly where they set the encumbrance "limit". I personally just don't prefer unrealistic dependencies.

As I understand it, the developers wanted to give weapons more distinction in Marksman DLC. Tying weight and volume together creates less distinction with some weapons. Why not just separate it into two values so that weapon mass, volume, and the resulting encumbrance can be more accurately represented? A DMR or assault rifle would then be the more appropriate tool for long, fast infantry movements. This would discourage everyone from taking an LMG in certain game modes, because after accounting for the total number of rounds carried, it is the "lighter" option over the DMR or assault rifle.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Agent()()9