Marksmen DLC Weapon Feedback

[chortles 263]

Attachable bipods can add to a weapon's inertia by the bipod's inertia value in the config.

[das attorney 858]

nvm 5 chars

[twisted 128]

im finding the ASP-1 very difficult to use. any tips? i seem to need to be able to zero it to 100m but cant so it always arcs way over my targets. its like shooting a rainbow. and the zero on it only goes as low at 300m so i have to shoot way below my target to try and hit. Very weird.

[enex 11]

Real-life analogues are something like the VSS and VKS with additional pistol grip on a butterfly-shaped stock

We wanted to make something very 'Russian' - so the selection of materials was crucial

It was easy to work on, but the shape caused quite some controversy even in our team - at one point there even was a Bullpup version in play

We wanted something special with extreme hits,

a low range

, and built-in silencer

Source: http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-marksmen-weapons

[da12thMonkey 1943]

im finding the ASP-1 very difficult to use. any tips? i seem to need to be able to zero it to 100m but cant so it always arcs way over my targets. its like shooting a rainbow. and the zero on it only goes as low at 300m so i have to shoot way below my target to try and hit. Very weird.

According to the field manual it's only really supposed to be used up to a range of about 200m, in which case you have to choose your optics accordingly - i.e. nothing with a minimum zero (or fixed zero) >200m.

This pretty much means to only sensible choices are ironsights, collimator sights (ACO, Mk17 and backup sights on other scopes) and magnified scopes like the TWS (though not ideal), Nightstalker, MOS and DMS. The new scopes (Kahila, AMS) are designed for the other DLC weapons more than the ASP-1

Nightstalker is actually pretty much perfect for the weapon since it's designed to be used at night and has an inbuilt range-finder that makes it a bit easier to operate the weapon in light of its extreme ballistic arc.

[Electricleash 133]

This pretty much means to only sensible choices are ironsights, collimator sights (ACO, Mk17 and backup sights on other scopes) and magnified scopes like the TWS (though not ideal), Nightstalker, MOS and DMS. The new scopes (Kahila, AMS) are designed for the other DLC weapons more than the ASP-1

Yeah I'm actually really struggling in the second part of the new showcase. Took the Asp with a Kahlia and bipod. Firing on the compound from the hill is really problematic. 300m min zero, and you have to aim at the top of the scope! Also seems to be an issue when deployed with this configuration where the bullet land far to the right of where you're aiming.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Also seems to be an issue when deployed with this configuration where the bullet land far to the right of where you're aiming.

Unlike when you lean, deploying on a canted slope does actually seem to cant the optics and cause a semi-realistic POI shift:

http://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_errors.html

As for taking the ASP-1 in the showcase, I think it's there to encourage you to wear the ghillie suit to go down the hill and do some up-close and personal action against the foot patrols and sentries around the compound.

Personally I just stuck with the Cyrus and an ACP pistol that I picked up from the first building as backup (one of the dead AAF guys in the church right at the beginning of the mission has more magazines for it)

[twisted 128]

According to the field manual it's only really supposed to be used up to a range of about 200m, in which case you have to choose your optics accordingly - i.e. nothing with a minimum zero (or fixed zero) >200m.

This pretty much means to only sensible choices are ironsights, collimator sights (ACO, Mk17 and backup sights on other scopes) and magnified scopes like the TWS (though not ideal), Nightstalker, MOS and DMS. The new scopes (Kahila, AMS) are designed for the other DLC weapons more than the ASP-1

Nightstalker is actually pretty much perfect for the weapon since it's designed to be used at night and has an inbuilt range-finder that makes it a bit easier to operate the weapon in light of its extreme ballistic arc.

Thanks mate, now thats really iinteresting to know. Hope BIS make that kind of knowledge widely known becuase such powerful weapon, but it has its own way about it which is really nice to see but tricky unless the above knwoeldge is shared.,

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Unlike when you lean, deploying on a canted slope does actually seem to cant the optics and cause a semi-realistic POI shift:

http://www.riflescopelevel.com/images/figure3x.jpg

http://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_errors.html

As for taking the ASP-1 in the showcase, I think it's there to encourage you to wear the ghillie suit to go down the hill and do some up-close and personal action against the foot patrols and sentries around the compound.

Personally I just stuck with the Cyrus and an ACP pistol that I picked up from the first building as backup (one of the dead AAF guys in the church right at the beginning of the mission has more magazines for it)

Lol, i used the Kir for the compound. Went in sneaky sneaky. Shot one guy, suddenly in less than a second, one popped around the corner and single shot me in the face. XD

[razor6014 35]

Unlike when you lean, deploying on a canted slope does actually seem to cant the optics and cause a semi-realistic POI shift:

http://www.riflescopelevel.com/images/figure3x.jpg

http://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_errors.html

too bad there is no wind ... :D its a nice trick to dope the wind actualy :D only problem is you need a spirit bubble to be accurate with that

[St. Jimmy 272]

I think the spreading could be bit less. Bit too much for 200m.

[roberthammer 582]

About the ASP-1 - yes the dispersion could been less , since it is not a short rifle and it shouldn't have any problems to hit targets around 200-500m

dispersion values

0.0029;  - ASP-1

0.00044; - Mar-10

0.00058; - Mk-1 EMR,Rahim

0.00073; - Cyrus,Mk18 ABR

0.00087; - Mk14

0.00131; - SDAR

0.0018;  - A2 VSS Vintorez

As you can see ASP-1 got the worst dispersion from all these rifles , even SDAR has less dispersion than the ASP-1 , which is kinda weird how short it is

also notice the Mk14 has worse dispersion than the Mk18 - which the Mk18 has shorter barrel and those values should be reversed

Edited March 29, 2015 by RobertHammer

[agent()()9 18]

As you can see ASP-1 got the worst dispersion from all these rifles , even SDAR has less dispersion than the ASP-1 , which is kinda weird how short it is

also notice the Mk14 has worse dispersion than the Mk18 - which the Mk18 has shorter barrel and those values should be reversed

Good point. It would be preferable if dispersion was a function of weapon caliber and barrel length from chamber to barrel tip. Right now, it seems like an arbitrary stat.

If this were the case, bullpups like the Katiba would likely be more accurate than equivalent total-length MX rifles. Non-bullpup rifles would have more inertia, but less recoil due to the forward distribution of the rifle's weight compared to the bullpup. Perhaps a quicker reload time should also be given to the MX/non-bullpup rifles, due to ease of magazine access.

I digress from DLC weapon-specific feedback however, although it's all related to making more authentic weapons.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Agent()()9

[Brisse 78]

Good point. It would be preferable if dispersion was a function of weapon caliber and barrel length from chamber to barrel tip. Right now, it seems like an arbitrary stat.

Dispersion is a lot more complicated than you seem to think. It should take things like barrel harmonics and thermodynamics in account. The best way to set dispersion is to research how accurate the real life counterpart is, and then convert it into a dispersion value.

Let's say we have a Accuracy International Arctic Warfare that we want to implement into the game. What should we enter into the dispersion parameter in the config?

We start by researching it's IRL accuracy. I found this on wikipedia, so let's use that:

Tests with 10.89 g (168 gr) ammunition provided sub 0.5 MOA ten-shot groups at 91 m (100 yd)

Now we just have to calculate 0.5MOA into radians which is the unit that Arma use (metric standard). We just multiply 0.5 with 0.0002909 and the result is dispersion = 0.00014545;

[rübe 127]

I think the spreading could be bit less. Bit too much for 200m.

Oh yes, please.

I really liked the VSS Vintorez, so I had high hopes for the this toy.

But it just doesn't click too well with me, mostly because I don't hit shit. :(

P.S. do not take the ASP-1 in the new marksman showcase once you get the chance - keep the cyrus which is one hell of a gun, wow - and even if, do not equip it with that new(?) scope right next to it. LOL. :p

[twisted 128]

Dispersion is a lot more complicated than you seem to think. It should take things like barrel harmonics and thermodynamics in account. The best way to set dispersion is to research how accurate the real life counterpart is, and then convert it into a dispersion value.

Let's say we have a Accuracy International Arctic Warfare that we want to implement into the game. What should we enter into the dispersion parameter in the config?

We start by researching it's IRL accuracy. I found this on wikipedia, so let's use that:

Now we just have to calculate 0.5MOA into radians which is the unit that Arma use (metric standard). We just multiply 0.5 with 0.0002909 and the result is dispersion = 0.00014545;

this is a fantastic excercise that should be iterated across first the marksman dlc and then the other rifles in arma 3. its importnat to feel that things make sense and arent just a subjective balancing.

[Elena 2]

dispersion values
0.0029;  - ASP-1
0.00044; - Mar-10
0.00058; - Mk-1 EMR,Rahim
0.00073; - Cyrus,Mk18 ABR
0.00087; - Mk14
0.00131; - SDAR

As you can see ASP-1 got the worst dispersion from all these rifles , even SDAR has less dispersion than the ASP-1 , which is kinda weird how short it is

also notice the Mk14 has worse dispersion than the Mk18 - which the Mk18 has shorter barrel and those values should be reversed

given all the Marksman Rifles have quite a low ( 0.000x) dispersion, and the ASP-1 has 0.00x, i almost expect this to be a typo, the real value intended to be 0.00029 maybe.

[evil koala 6]

About the ASP-1 - yes the dispersion could been less , since it is not a short rifle and it shouldn't have any problems to hit targets around 200-500m

dispersion values

0.0029;  - ASP-1

0.00044; - Mar-10

0.00058; - Mk-1 EMR,Rahim

0.00073; - Cyrus,Mk18 ABR

0.00087; - Mk14

0.00131; - SDAR

0.0018;  - A2 VSS Vintorez

As you can see ASP-1 got the worst dispersion from all these rifles , even SDAR has less dispersion than the ASP-1 , which is kinda weird how short it is

also notice the Mk14 has worse dispersion than the Mk18 - which the Mk18 has shorter barrel and those values should be reversed

Regarding the Mk14 vs Mk18.. Barrel length does not affect accuracy, only muzzle energy. Barrel/weapon construction and bolt/breech interface affect accuracy.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Reading the recent changelogs, the ASP-1's dispersion was intentionally increased when they reduced the bullet's drag coefficient.

this is a fantastic excercise that should be iterated across first the marksman dlc and then the other rifles in arma 3. its importnat to feel that things make sense and arent just a subjective balancing.

They mentioned in one of the dev-branch changelogs that they've already factored dispersion values for weapons into equivalent MOA values:

• Tweaked: Standardized dispersion values for MOA (in game differences are less than marginal)
  

Looking at the config dispersion values for the general-issue rifles in game

2.5 MOA = MXM and MXSW (unknown barrel lengths)

3 MOA = TRG-21 (18.1" barrel) and MX (unknown barrel length)

4 MOA = Mk20 (17.4' barrel), TRG-20 (15' barrel), MXC, and Katiba (unknown barrel lengths)

5 MOA = Mk.20 Carbine (16' barrel) and Katiba Carbine (unknown barrel length)

It's actually pretty hard to find precise MOA accuracy values for non-precision rifles. Service assault rifles are often just given an evaluation threshold of being able to consistently hit a chest-sized target at a certain range. Compared to sniper rifles where you can often find a figure to the nearest ½ or even ¼ MOA because they are tested to a much more specific set of accuracy requirements where it's important to evaluate them next to comparable weapons.

You do see people quoting the M16 (20' barrel) as being a 3 MOA rifle and the M4 (14.5' barrel) as a 4 MOA rifle as a sort of rough guide, but without very precise information you just have to wing it a bit.

BIS should perhaps swap the values for the Katiba and MX variants since the barrel on the Katiba is much longer than the MX, but maybe the Katiba just isn't as well manufactured. As Brisse and Evil Koala said, there is more to accuracy of a barrel than just its length - whether it's free-floating, how stiff it is, what the rifling is like and any number of other factors that come from how the rifle is built can all improve or diminish accuracy by significant margins.

Edited March 29, 2015 by da12thMonkey

[pettka 694]

BIS should perhaps swap the values for the Katiba and MX variants since the barrel on the Katiba is much longer than the MX, but maybe the Katiba just isn't as well manufactured. As Brisse and Evil Koala said, there is more to accuracy of a barrel than just its length - whether it's free-floating, how stiff it is, what the rifling is like and any number of other factors that come from how the rifle is built can all improve or diminish accuracy by significant margins.

Katiba rifles were manufactured with higher RoF in mind, but the downside is that the mechanism isn't as good as for MX in cleaning the rest of caseless ammunition mess which results in slightly higher dispersion. Calling Katiba a cheap copy may be a bit over the top, but it's describing the process CSAT uses :icon_twisted:

[roberthammer 582]

ASP-1's current dispersion makes it worse for engaging targets over 200-400m , just try it - you will notice what i mean

also with Brisse's calculation - i took the VKS - 1 MOA with precision bullets = 0.00029;

but the fact the ASP works like the VSS then the dispersion would be slightly worse - it could have 2-4 MOA = 0.00073;-0.001 max

and usually the arma's the dispersion does change because of long/short barrel , because in the game we can't set : which type of barrel has it , it is freefloat , how much twisted etc

so we have to compensate with the dispersion to get more realistic result

I am sure that the longer barreled M14 (Mk14) has better accuracy when shooting at longer distance than the short barreled Mk18

not saying that it's super accurate but slightly better than the short barrel

About the Katiba - original KH2002 was derived from DIO S 5.56 which is a Iran clone of the Norinco CQ (Chinese made Ar15) , also later KH2002s are more quality made and also accurate

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 ----------

Katiba rifles were manufactured with higher RoF in mind, but the downside is that the mechanism isn't as good as for MX in cleaning the rest of caseless ammunition mess which results in slightly higher dispersion. Calling Katiba a cheap copy may be a bit over the top, but it's describing the process CSAT uses :icon_twisted:

That reminds me the Early Alpha when Katiba used 6.5mm cased instead of caseless , in my opinion that was better because the Katiba's mechanism wasn't made for caseless

and also Katiba should have a Burst mode too :icon_twisted: (Semi-Full-Burst)

Edited March 30, 2015 by RobertHammer

[Brisse 78]

That's a really good excuse pettka :)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

ASP-1's current dispersion makes it worse for engaging targets over 200-400m , just try it - you will notice what i mean

also with Brisse's calculation - i took the VKS - 1 MOA with precision bullets = 0.00029;

but the fact the ASP works like the VSS then the dispersion would be slightly worse - it could have 2-4 MOA = 0.00073;-0.001 max

and usually the arma's the dispersion does change because of long/short barrel , because in the game we can't set : which type of barrel has it , it is freefloat , how much twisted etc

so we have to compensate with the dispersion to get more realistic result

I am sure that the longer barreled M14 (Mk14) has better accuracy when shooting at longer distance than the short barreled Mk18

not saying that it's super accurate but slightly better than the short barrel

About the Katiba - original KH2002 was derived from DIO S 5.56 which is a Iran clone of the Norinco CQ (Chinese made Ar15) , also later KH2002s are more quality made and also accurate

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 ----------

That reminds me the Early Alpha when Katiba used 6.5mm cased instead of caseless , in my opinion that was better because the Katiba's mechanism wasn't made for caseless

and also Katiba should have a Burst mode too :icon_twisted: (Semi-Full-Burst)

I agree with this. Bring back burst, as it's historically accurate. Find it strange that it got cut out, should be back maybe with the Marksman update.

[agent()()9 18]

Katiba rifles were manufactured with higher RoF in mind, but the downside is that the mechanism isn't as good as for MX in cleaning the rest of caseless ammunition mess which results in slightly higher dispersion. Calling Katiba a cheap copy may be a bit over the top, but it's describing the process CSAT uses :icon_twisted:

Thank you for posting this! I always wondered why the differences existed between these rifles.

[roshnak 41]

I am sure that the longer barreled M14 (Mk14) has better accuracy when shooting at longer distance than the short barreled Mk18

not saying that it's super accurate but slightly better than the short barrel

I believe that the Mk14 is supposed to be an "antique" rifle in use by irregulars. It certainly looks more beat up than the other weapons in the game. That's probably why it's less accurate than the shiny new Mk18s.