Weapon Resting & Deployment Feedback

[KeyCat 131]

They're not going to remove resting without bipods. They even explained and showed you how they mapped it in the Marksman Diary. Why do people keep thinking that it's a broken feature?

Where do I say it's a broken feature? I'm just giving the devs my opinion just like you and everyone else are doing. It's totally awesome we now have resting and bipods but being able to "deploy" weapons without bipods seems a bit overworked. Of course all IMO and your milage may vary.

BTW: The drift to the right seems greatly improved/fixed as well as the missaligned crosshair/scope view in todays build.

/KC

Edited April 10, 2015 by KeyCat

[intruder_ger 10]

Ok I am an idiot. How do you deploy the bipod? I have it on my gun but it stays where it is whether I am prone or not. They legs never fold open to touch the ground. Not in Action menu nor under Weapon configuration.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Same here. Pressing button "C" doesn´t work for me.

[Brisse 78]

Same here. Pressing button "C" doesn´t work for me.

Maybe you run a custom control scheme. I don't think the game wants to break custom presets so the function might be unassigned. Go into controls and try to manually assign a key.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I can agree with flat ground. But about a lot of other places I could physically rest my gun. However, resting on flat ground in game makes up for things you could do on real life in the case you don't have a bipod. For example, I would take off my bag, and use that to brace my rifle best I could. Now, we can't take our bags off in game and rest our gu... Wait, has anyone tried this? Yo, someone try this. Place a bag on the ground and try deploying on it!

That's just grasping at straws to validate the prone-no-bipod deployment. Prone already gives plenty of benefits even without being deployed. You get inherent benefits from prone while you aren't rested (as you did in every single iteration of the game) and you already get additional benefits from prone when your elbows are on the ground which was implemented with Marksman.

If you want to drag the backpack into this, then I'll agree, only allow it if you have a backpack in your inventory, and it's visually represented to illustrate what you are doing.

I don't understand why is it so hard to understand that "Weapon Resting", which is passively enabled when you're prone already takes care of all the possible "I hold my gun really well/I support myself with my elbows/etc." cases because by design it already takes into account where your elbows are. If you move them too far up, you lose the benefit of "Weapon Resting". Try it yourself, whenever you're prone, and there's a dotted line under the stance indicator, you're gaining extra benefits for the fact you're "Weapon Resting", just like you do when you aim over a cube, etc.

We're already aware this was done by BI's design, we're arguing to change only the "prone-no-bipod-in-the-middle-of-the-road deployment" it because right now, it's a badly designed feature which takes away from other well designed features in the game that have come over the year and it looks weird to boot.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Sniperwolf572

[intruder_ger 10]

Maybe you run a custom control scheme. I don't think the game wants to break custom presets so the function might be unassigned. Go into controls and try to manually assign a key.

I can not assign a key for deploying the bipod, where can i find it ?

Solved

Edited April 10, 2015 by Intruder_GER

[froggyluv 2130]

Under Weapons in controls

[L3TUC3 32]

I can agree with flat ground. But about a lot of other places I could physically rest my gun. However, resting on flat ground in game makes up for things you could do on real life in the case you don't have a bipod. For example, I would take off my bag, and use that to brace my rifle best I could. Now, we can't take our bags off in game and rest our gu... Wait, has anyone tried this? Yo, someone try this. Place a bag on the ground and try deploying on it!

I've done it with CSE deploy on a hill before. The hill was too steep to get a good angle deployed, so I tossed my ruck in front of the AR. Worked great, I don't see why it wouldn't with BIpods.

[CaptainObvious 95]

In Finland we are taught to use the magazine as a third point of contact to the ground while prone. That makes it much more stable. But then kalasnhikovs do have a very long magazine and this is obviously not applicable to all weapons.

Yep, and it works wonders too, hard to imagine not doing so if the weapon has long enough magazine to rest on.

[Brisse 78]

Yep, and it works wonders too, hard to imagine not doing so if the weapon has long enough magazine to rest on.

It's interesting to see how different training can be among different countries. As I wrote earlier in the thread, I was taught specifically to NEVER rest my weapon on the magazine. Even more interesting is that I served in a country very close (geographically and politically) to Finland :)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Realistically, i could see depending on certain weapons, it's not ideal to try to rest on a magazine and try out sustained fire. But for single accuracy shots, using the mag shouldn't be that big of a deal when using the magazine as a third point of contact.

[CaptainObvious 95]

It's interesting to see how different training can be among different countries. As I wrote earlier in the thread, I was taught specifically to NEVER rest my weapon on the magazine. Even more interesting is that I served in a country very close (geographically and politically) to Finland :)

Aye, I guess it boils down to the magazine, the STANAG is so compact compared to the gianormous 30rnd 7.62 mag that it's no use to try to rest on it.

[Brisse 78]

DarkSideSixOfficial: Sustained fire. Yes, I think that was the reason why they though us not to rest on magazine. The recoil moves the magazine's ground contact spot and the aim does not naturally return to it's initial position. Bracing your arms into the ground and holding the weapon above the ground seemed to be just as stable, with the advantage that the point of aim returns to the same spot after the recoil impulse.

CaptainObvious: Yep. We used 5.56 STANAG magazines.

[intruder_ger 10]

Under Weapons in controls

I cant find a selection under controls/weapons, no kidding.

When i play the Showcase/Marksmen, then i get the Information on weapon deployment *to deploy your bipod press "undefined".

Would be nice to get the opportunity to select a button, but i dont know how?

[reluxstudio 11]

I cant find a selection under controls/weapons, no kidding.

When i play the Showcase/Marksmen, then i get the Information on weapon deployment *to deploy your bipod press "undefined".

Would be nice to get the opportunity to select a button, but i dont know how?

Press C to tripod

[intruder_ger 10]

Ok guys, got it. I have checked my Installation on steam, and now it works fine.

Thanks for your help.

[EricJ 724]

DarkSideSixOfficial: Sustained fire. Yes, I think that was the reason why they though us not to rest on magazine. The recoil moves the magazine's ground contact spot and the aim does not naturally return to it's initial position. Bracing your arms into the ground and holding the weapon above the ground seemed to be just as stable, with the advantage that the point of aim returns to the same spot after the recoil impulse.

CaptainObvious: Yep. We used 5.56 STANAG magazines.

Same reason in the US Army we trained like that, it was more natural and even then resting on the magazine just was really unnatural and horribly uncomfortable.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

That's just grasping at straws to validate the prone-no-bipod deployment. Prone already gives plenty of benefits even without being deployed. You get inherent benefits from prone while you aren't rested (as you did in every single iteration of the game) and you already get additional benefits from prone when your elbows are on the ground which was implemented with Marksman.

If you want to drag the backpack into this, then I'll agree, only allow it if you have a backpack in your inventory, and it's visually represented to illustrate what you are doing.

I don't understand why is it so hard to understand that "Weapon Resting", which is passively enabled when you're prone already takes care of all the possible "I hold my gun really well/I support myself with my elbows/etc." cases because by design it already takes into account where your elbows are. If you move them too far up, you lose the benefit of "Weapon Resting". Try it yourself, whenever you're prone, and there's a dotted line under the stance indicator, you're gaining extra benefits for the fact you're "Weapon Resting", just like you do when you aim over a cube, etc.

We're already aware this was done by BI's design, we're arguing to change only the "prone-no-bipod-in-the-middle-of-the-road deployment" it because right now, it's a badly designed feature which takes away from other well designed features in the game that have come over the year and it looks weird to boot.

Using elbows is fine, but if I have something like say an AR-15, I could essentially use the mag to rest on, but only for single accuracy shots. Though, going through the time to implement that in game would be too much effort. I do think that Backpacks should be a solid object that I can rest my gun on. In other words it would be cool if I could take my bag out of my inventory, and it's now on the ground. Move up next to the bag and deploy my weapon. Though, not sure if BiS could pull something like this off. It would get rid of deployment without bipods on flat ground, but provide for that "in any case" scenario.

[lawndartleo 109]

Moved to Zeus discussion

Edited April 12, 2015 by lawndartleo
Moved to Zeus discussion. This appears to not be a good thread for my question.

[CaptainObvious 95]

I do think that Backpacks should be a solid object that I can rest my gun on.

They are already, resting works but the deployment algorithm sadly doesn't detect the backpack.

[bad benson 1733]

i kind of feel like the way resting on terrain works is not forgiving enough. i mean it makes sense how you adapt to the terrain angle but considering that terrain squares are pretty big to provide big maps that means that on a smooth hill you really have to find the sweet spot ontop to get straight aim.

in real life there would be way more micro terrain changes that would allow many more good resting positions. would be great if there was a way to add some smoothing between the actual terrain square under you and the virtual even plane in the player model. it would probably be good to also consider if you resting along a side of a hill or downhill. soy ou can rest on the side of a hill without getting your scope/weapon angled sideways.

[Variable 322]

We're already aware this was done by BI's design, we're arguing to change only the "prone-no-bipod-in-the-middle-of-the-road deployment" it because right now, it's a badly designed feature which takes away from other well designed features in the game that have come over the year and it looks weird to boot.

Exactly. The deployed with no bipeds capability is a classic example of over-engineering. It's not coherent, it's not needed and it encourage the player to keep on looking for that extra sweet spot to deploy instead of just enjoy the benefits of the beautiful normal resting.

[roberthammer 582]

Deployment without a bipod makes the bipod almost useless to use and i think resting would been enough for the weapon without a bipod + it uses the same animations as with bipod

then the Deployment with the bipod would make more sense than it is now

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Isn't weapon behaviour when deploying without a bipod, almost exactly the same as simply resting without deploying?

As far as I can tell, the amount of sway is the same whether you deploy on the object you're rested against or not and the only difference is that the vertical recoil returns to the same position (though there is still horizontal displacement).

So deploying when prone doesn't inherently make you more accurate than simply lying on the ground - since lying prone is always a rested state anyway. It's only the bipod that makes a major difference to sway.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Isn't weapon behaviour when deploying without a bipod, almost exactly the same as simply resting without deploying?

<snip>

Yes, and it hardly makes the bipod useless.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Some data straight from the config:

// Weapon deployment values
deployedCoef = 0.2; // Sway multiplier?
deployedProneCoef = 0.04; // Sway multiplier in prone?
deployedRecoil = 0.4; // Temporary recoil multiplier
deployedRecoilPersistent = 0.5; // Persistent recoil multiplier

// Weapon deployment times
deployTime = 0.2; // Time it takes to deploy without a bipod
undeployTime = 0.2; // Time it takes to undeploy without a bipod
deployBipodTime = 0.4; // Time it takes to deploy with a bipod
undeployBipodTime = 0.3; // Time it takes to undeploy with a bipod

// Weapon resting values
restingCoef = 0.6; // Sway multiplier
restingProneCoef = 0.12; // Sway multiplier in prone?
restingRecoil = 0.6; // Temporary recoil multiplier
restingRecoilPersistent = 1; // Permanent recoil multiplier

Deducing from this data and some experiments, I've come to a few conclusions in regards to deployment without bipods:

• Deployment without bipods, compared to resting, gives absolutely no benefits, in all cases, other than creating a pivot point.
  
• If you are deployed, you are also rested and that's where benefits come from.
  
• The only time deployment without bipods is useful is if you need to aim at something that is out of reach when not deployed. (Hard sideways/downward angle out of a window or a wall)
  
• Deployment locks your camera to the weapon (like a 2D scope), so when you experience recoil or inertia, it might be a bit more disorienting, but is generally not noticeable. I only noticed the effect when I was compositing the images.
  
• As it currently stands, this means that deploying without bipods in prone is actually a negative effect on your abilities as all it does is sink your point of aim and limits rotation angles
  

And some composite images in regards to weapon sway. Tests with recoil and inertia were also done and yielded the same conslusion, but I could not be bothered to align additional 2*3*30 images together.

Isn't weapon behaviour when deploying without a bipod, almost exactly the same as simply resting without deploying?

As far as I can tell, the amount of sway is the same whether you deploy on the object you're rested against or not and the only difference is that the vertical recoil returns to the same position (though there is still horizontal displacement).

So deploying when prone doesn't inherently make you more accurate than simply lying on the ground - since lying prone is always a rested state anyway. It's only the bipod that makes a major difference to sway.

Exactly.