Recoil Overhaul Feedback

[roshnak 41]

Because with the mouse ingame you never "adapt" as you must keep moving the mouse, while in RL you need to overcome the first shots until the muscles have adapted to the recoil and naturally keep it stationary down. Yes I have shot 7.62x39, 7.62x51 and 5.56 in full auto. It's the same with a fire hose, when you open up the water you get that first sway until the body adjust itself, you don't need to put any conscious effort into holding the hose down. And yes I have worked alot with fire hoses too. For sure, the body is still working to counteracting the recoil but it goes all natural.

You may not be putting conscious effort into it, but you are most definitely putting effort into it. You are using your muscles and muscle memory to counteract the force of the object is pushing on you. Now, you could obviously argue that there are differences involved - countering force pushing directly back at you is not the same as a force pushing up, down, or side-to-side - but it's roughly analogous to what currently happens in the game.

As for not being able to "adapt" to the recoil because of a need for constant mouse input, as I said before, changing the amount of recoil during the course of a burst will only make it more difficult to adapt. It will make it more difficult to develop the required muscle memory to counter the recoil.

The only way the proposed system could possibly be better is if you assume that players don't know how to use a mouse to counter recoil, and instead everyone is currently just holding mouse 1, watching their aim rise until they are looking at the sky, letting go of the mouse button, readjusting their aim, and repeating.

Pulling the mouse down to counteract recoil isn't exactly the same thing. With the mouse, it's one constant motion. Once you get the feeling for it, you can get the two first shots almost on the same spot. There's no time delay involved, like it is when handling the real thing, where your whole body has to adapt.

So how exactly would tapering the amount of recoil over time solve this problem? Unless you plan to somehow prevent players from countering those first two shots, maybe take away mouse control during a burst? Or dramatically increase the recoil on the first two shots so that it is almost uncontrollable?

I don't understand, is your argument that it is too easy to counter the current recoil or too hard? Because you originally said that recoil felt like an artificial penalty.

Edited February 20, 2015 by roshnak

[dsiOne 10]

This is a fantastic improvement all around, fatigue, recoil, weapon handling in general! Though I do wish there was some sort of tell that you were resting your weapon but I haven't played too much with it yet obviously.

Also, on a side note, lowering the effective recoil as you fire a longer burst would make it harder to learn how to control recoil. Currently, as is, you can pull down in one smooth motion during the burst and be pretty accurate. But with a 'tapered' recoil, you would have to adjust your mouse movement as you fire through the pattern just to be pretty accurate. I have no real opinion on what is better (tapering it certainly requires more skill, but Arma isn't CS:GO), but if your argument is that it's too hard as is, don't argue for making it harder. There's less conscious effort to be put into "drag mouse down at this rate while holding M1" than "drag mouse down at this rate while holding M1 until you fire X many shots, then start pulling it down at this rate, then when you hit Y many shots, you need to stop pulling the mouse down" of course keeping in mind that every caliber and every muzzle length combination will require you to gain a different muscle memory. At some point either system would become a natural adaptation of your body, but as it is now it will come to anyone much sooner.

There is no force being applied to the mouse that we have to counteract, so there's nothing for our muscles to act against. In real life, with a fire hose or gun or whatever, you can just act against the forces being applied to you and get a good result. That's just impossible to do in a game, so the best thing to do is to emulate what needs to be done to get the same effect, "lean smoothly against the recoil" becomes "drag the mouse smoothly", and it turns out that if you do either poorly, you'll end up with a similarly poor result.

[twisted 127]

This is a fantastic improvement all around, fatigue, recoil, weapon handling in general! Though I do wish there was some sort of tell that you were resting your weapon but I haven't played too much with it yet obviously.

Also, on a side note, lowering the effective recoil as you fire a longer burst would make it harder to learn how to control recoil. Currently, as is, you can pull down in one smooth motion during the burst and be pretty accurate. But with a 'tapered' recoil, you would have to adjust your mouse movement as you fire through the pattern just to be pretty accurate. I have no real opinion on what is better (tapering it certainly requires more skill, but Arma isn't CS:GO), but if your argument is that it's too hard as is, don't argue for making it harder. There's less conscious effort to be put into "drag mouse down at this rate while holding M1" than "drag mouse down at this rate while holding M1 until you fire X many shots, then start pulling it down at this rate, then when you hit Y many shots, you need to stop pulling the mouse down" of course keeping in mind that every caliber and every muzzle length combination will require you to gain a different muscle memory. At some point either system would become a natural adaptation of your body, but as it is now it will come to anyone much sooner.

There is no force being applied to the mouse that we have to counteract, so there's nothing for our muscles to act against. In real life, with a fire hose or gun or whatever, you can just act against the forces being applied to you and get a good result. That's just impossible to do in a game, so the best thing to do is to emulate what needs to be done to get the same effect, "lean smoothly against the recoil" becomes "drag the mouse smoothly", and it turns out that if you do either poorly, you'll end up with a similarly poor result.

good points.

imo skill should be something a little more than hold mouse button down longer to reduce recoil. its pretty easy now and that's ok as user input (aka mouse drag) can make a difference in a semi-skill based manner.

on the subject of the recoil - has lateral recoil impulses been introduced.

[andersson 285]

Then there is this practical issue of constantly moving the mouse down to counter. What do you do if you aim down a hill and let go of 200 shots in one go? When will the mouse pad end..?

Regardless, too much of a mouse movement like that feels wrong to me. To counter a jump in the start is more intuitive from my RL experience, when you have control of that initial recoil / dynamic movement you can keep your body in a more static posture. The muscles are not moving the barrel anymore, just countering the recoil. For me a RL equivalent of that mouse movement would be to counter the initial jump and then slowly pushing the weapon lower all the time.

First, and with the caveat that I have never fired a fully automatic weapon, it does not seem likely to me recoil control is an unconscious act.

Recoil control, auto or single, will become an unconscious act. After you see the sight lift due to recoil the body will automatically put the sight on what you are looking at. Sure in the beginning or if you don't shoot regularly you need to consciously move the sights back on target, but when you shoot more it's all natural.

I have to add, I don't really mind a mouse down movement as it will give you feedback of recoil, but it must be very subtle. Too much and that feeling is translated to having no real control over the recoil.

Edited February 21, 2015 by andersson

[roshnak 41]

Then there is this practical issue of constantly moving the mouse down to counter. What do you do if you aim down a hill and let go of 200 shots in one go? When will the mouse pad end..?

This would obviously depend on your mouse sensitivity and the size of your mousepad, but in my experience, no, although it does get close:

I use a medium-low sensitivity.

For me a RL equivalent of that mouse movement would be to counter the initial jump and then slowly pushing the weapon lower all the time.

Okay, but, again, that would make it harder to counter the recoil in the game. Not easier. It would still be perfectly doable, but it would certainly take more practice to master.

Recoil control, auto or single, will become an unconscious act. After you see the sight lift due to recoil the body will automatically put the sight on what you are looking at. Sure in the beginning or if you don't shoot regularly you need to consciously move the sights back on target, but when you shoot more it's all natural.

This same thing will happen if you shoot a lot in Arma.

Edited February 21, 2015 by roshnak

[andersson 285]

Mouse sensitivity yes. That is very personal and might affect this quite alot.

[Brisse 78]

So how exactly would tapering the amount of recoil over time solve this problem? Unless you plan to somehow prevent players from countering those first two shots, maybe take away mouse control during a burst? Or dramatically increase the recoil on the first two shots so that it is almost uncontrollable?

You answered this yourself in the following sentence :)

As for not being able to "adapt" to the recoil because of a need for constant mouse input, as I said before, changing the amount of recoil during the course of a burst will only make it more difficult to adapt. It will make it more difficult to develop the required muscle memory to counter the recoil.

The very last sentence there summarises the whole point of my proposal. Those few first shots are the most difficult in real life, so why not make them a bit more difficult in the game? Make it harder too adapt to the recoil of the first few shots. Tapering off the muzzle rise is one way too do that. I'm not saying it should stop completely after the first shots.

I don't understand, is your argument that it is too easy to counter the current recoil or too hard? Because you originally said that recoil felt like an artificial penalty.

It's too easy, becouse the constant pulling down motion is very easy to learn by muscle memory. What I meant when I wrote "artificial penalty" is that it's unnatural.

So how exactly would tapering the amount of recoil over time solve this problem? Unless you plan to somehow prevent players from countering those first two shots, maybe take away mouse control during a burst? Or dramatically increase the recoil on the first two shots so that it is almost uncontrollable?

I don't want to take away your mouse control. Tapering off the muzzle rise means it's not one constant motion anymore, which means it's not quite as easy to learn by muscle memory anymore. That's the solution.

[roberthammer 582]

This is what i meant before

Normally the recoil should move the hands and arms but not the whole torso

You can see the Full auto looks much more realistic than the semi auto

[Brisse 78]

RobertHammer: Pistols especially are a bit wierd. In reality, most of that recoil is absorbed at the wrists of the shooter. I guess BI wanted to make sure people get visual feedback so that it's easy too see who is firing their weapon. Looks really unnatural though!

[twisted 127]

This is what i meant before

Normally the recoil should move the hands and arms but not the whole torso

You can see the Full auto looks much more realistic than the semi auto

good point. looks like a funky dancer. that torso movement could be toned done a ton.

[Enricksolt 12]

The recoil feels great, but i think it would be even better with less vertical recoil and more horizontal one.

[Brisse 78]

Guys and gals, I just realised that what I have been asking for in this thread earlier, actually exists in the new system, sort of.

I'm talking about making the first few shots more difficult while firing full auto.

So I started experimenting with the new recoil, and one particular config parameter kind of does what I have been asking for.

It looks like this:

temporary = 0.01;

What this parameter seem to do is to displace the aiming point away from the center of the camera. Increasing this value makes the first few shots harder because the muzzle rises more, but when the limit is reached and you keep firing full auto, the effect stops, so then you have only the normal (old) muzzle rise.

[-Coulum- 35]

Guys and gals, I just realised that what I have been asking for in this thread earlier, actually exists in the new system, sort of.

I'm talking about making the first few shots more difficult while firing full auto.

So I started experimenting with the new recoil, and one particular config parameter kind of does what I have been asking for.

It looks like this:

temporary = 0.01;

What this parameter seem to do is to displace the aiming point away from the center of the camera. Increasing this value makes the first few shots harder because the muzzle rises more, but when the limit is reached and you keep firing full auto, the effect stops, so then you have only the normal (old) muzzle rise.

Makes sense. I have been trying to figure out what makes this new recoil different than the old. That probably has something to do with it.

[metralla 19]

Should invent an optical mouse with which you can feel the recoil of guns in ARMA3. :)

Edited February 22, 2015 by Metralla

[R3vo 2652]

Should invent an optical mouse with which you can feel the recoil of guns in ARMA3. :)

Someone willing to invest to manufacture this unique device for ARMA3? :j:

It sounds crazy :at647:, but if it were possible to do this type of device, I WILL BUY ( Just to ARMA3 and future ARMA )

A mouse with forcefeedback should be that big of a deal.

[metralla 19]

A mouse with forcefeedback should be that big of a deal.

And yes, that's exactly what I was thinking, something like the joystick with forced feedback. :bounce3:

Edited February 22, 2015 by Metralla

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

Is it just me or does recoil seem quite light, specifically thinking of the Mk200 here, standing, non-rested I can fire a full 200 round magazine under control basically, and can go from target to target in the virtual arsenal. For a fairly powerful MG it seems pretty easy.

Not sure if this has been addressed, since it's a fairly early post in this thread. But some of the heavier LMGs in real life can be fired just as easily. In fact, I'm good friends with an armory tech from Crane Naval Base, who's sent me videos more than once of him one handed firing M60's and the like without too much difficulty. These weapons are some serious force multipliers.

[Jona33 51]

Not sure if this has been addressed, since it's a fairly early post in this thread. But some of the heavier LMGs in real life can be fired just as easily. In fact, I'm good friends with an armory tech from Crane Naval Base, who's sent me videos more than once of him one handed firing M60's and the like without too much difficulty. These weapons are some serious force multipliers.

Thanks for the extra info, it's always nice to know this stuff.

[Brisse 78]

Not sure if this has been addressed, since it's a fairly early post in this thread. But some of the heavier LMGs in real life can be fired just as easily. In fact, I'm good friends with an armory tech from Crane Naval Base, who's sent me videos more than once of him one handed firing M60's and the like without too much difficulty. These weapons are some serious force multipliers.

It was addressed. It basically comes down to the much larger weight and sturdiness of a machine-gun, while still using the same cartridges as service rifles.

As I explained in the second part of this post: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?188999-Recoil-Overhaul-Feedback&p=2884019&viewfull=1#post2884019

As an example, you can compare the FN FNC rifle at 3.84kg to the FN Minimi at 6.85kg. The light machine gun is almost double the weight of the rifle. And that's even before loading the thing. Since they are firing the same cartridge (even the barrel length and muzzle velocity is equal), the energy impulse is the same. Obviously the heavier weapon is going to absorb much more of that recoil impulse.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Brisse

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

A mouse with vibration like console controllers? If i'm not mistaken, hasn't this already been invented? Or are you asking someone to create a mouse that climbs up your desk as you shooting, forcing you to pull it back down to compensate for recoil. Lol

[twisted 127]

Not sure if this has been addressed, since it's a fairly early post in this thread. But some of the heavier LMGs in real life can be fired just as easily. In fact, I'm good friends with an armory tech from Crane Naval Base, who's sent me videos more than once of him one handed firing M60's and the like without too much difficulty. These weapons are some serious force multipliers.

I've seen videos like that and unless your buddy is really huge he's going to be struggling and not hitting much except the general direction he is pointing in. Plus holding a 6kg + weight up like a rifle I'd going to take its toll quick. and any person is going to hold it on their hips not up to their eyes like a rifle. arma really needs to do that for machine guns.

http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/43110509264058755/299ACDA33008438820C785B0BB57F8FDC6DA385B/ (1383 kB)

Edited February 22, 2015 by twisted

[the_demongod 31]

This is what i meant before

Normally the recoil should move the hands and arms but not the whole torso

You can see the Full auto looks much more realistic than the semi auto

Apologies for FPSrussia but here is a good reference for the way pistol recoil shows on the body:

BI has made all the recoil go back into the body as if this guy has steel arms, but in reality almost all of the recoil is absorbed by the wrists, with the rest going to the elbows and only a little to the shoulders.

[metralla 19]

A mouse with vibration like console controllers? If i'm not mistaken, hasn't this already been invented? Or are you asking someone to create a mouse that climbs up your desk as you shooting, forcing you to pull it back down to compensate for recoil. Lol

If the use of a vibration system in a mouse to point and maintain accuracy is not very compatible. Think of it not seem a good idea....:) :annoy:

[R3vo 2652]

If the use of a vibration system in a mouse to point and maintain accuracy is not very compatible. Think of it not seem a good idea....:) :annoy:

I personally thought about the forcefeedback of a steering wheel. Not just a vibration like the PS2 controller.

[Brisse 78]

Put wheels under the mouse and small electric engines. Make the mouse drive around on the mouse-pad on it's own :)

Just kidding...