Recoil Overhaul Feedback

[roshnak 41]

Question though. Isn't that due to you countering the recoil, so after the first few shots, you've already worked out how much effort in muscle memory it takes to counter the recoil. So technically, if you hold the trigger down without moving the mouse, you watch it climb. Then, when you hold the trigger and counter, it rises a bit, but since you've started countering movement, it becomes easy, because you've factored how much to move your mouse, in order to counter the recoil. This in essence, makes tapering off recoil pointless, as it becomes a skill set, or, something to master in game in order to fire effectively, which i think is what BIS is aiming for.

Basically this. Unless, of course, someone can explain why a gun would start recoiling less the longer it is being fired.

[kecske 46]

I'm quite happy overall with the new recoil but the way the two anti-materiel rifles and the heavy pistols kick back (or how the character handles it) look very unnatural to me.

[gibonez 18]

Is it just me or does recoil seem quite light, specifically thinking of the Mk200 here, standing, non-rested I can fire a full 200 round magazine under control basically, and can go from target to target in the virtual arsenal. For a fairly powerful MG it seems pretty easy.

Seems fine to me.

It is a relatively heavy gun firing a light caliber. Just like the m249 and many lmgs the recoil should be more manageable than say a short barreled AR.

[the_demongod 31]

I've never fired a gun IRL before, so I'm curious how realistic this camera shake is when dealing with actual recoil, anyone?

Well obviously there isn't really "camera shake" IRL because your brain is so good at stabilizing your view. That said, recoil (especially hard recoil from .308 and up) is quite jarring and disorienting. It's extremely fast-- faster than you might expect. It's almost faster than you can see in some cases. It's like you pull the trigger, there's a huge shockwave (which is rather disorienting), and when you focus on your sights, you realize that your aim is off a bit (although, it's been a while since I was shooting high-caliber rifles last so I can't remember exactly). With smaller rifles it's much less noticeable. What I've seen looks like a pretty good representation of it all though.

[supercereal4 29]

Basically this. Unless, of course, someone can explain why a gun would start recoiling less the longer it is being fired.

I see where you all are going with this, and I like it. I did some more testing, this time on my main rig so I was getting better fps without any framerate dips and it was much better, but for the sake of the discussion I'll elaborate on my previous point. I felt like it was simulating too much... if that makes any sense. It'd be like having to hit a button every time you wanted to blink, or inhale and exhale. Some things just come naturally and don't need a lot of manual adjusting. Its like a sports game trying to make you simulate hand-eye coordination. If your gun is an extension of your hands and arms, then when you have your eye on the target and the recoil begins to raise your gun, your hand-eye coordination kicks in to correct it. This happens unconsciously, I was suggesting that the recoil tapered off to simulate this natural effect instead of having to awkwardly drag my mouse down and off my desk. Of course I wasn't advocating for the elimination of muzzle climb, and I like these recoil changes, but after maybe half the magazine fired on full auto I felt that it should taper off to simulate the natural hand-eye coordination correction.

[gibonez 18]

Well obviously there isn't really "camera shake" IRL because your brain is so good at stabilizing your view. That said, recoil (especially hard recoil from .308 and up) is quite jarring and disorienting. It's extremely fast-- faster than you might expect. It's almost faster than you can see in some cases. It's like you pull the trigger, there's a huge shockwave (which is rather disorienting), and when you focus on your sights, you realize that your aim is off a bit (although, it's been a while since I was shooting high-caliber rifles last so I can't remember exactly). With smaller rifles it's much less noticeable. What I've seen looks like a pretty good representation of it all though.

You ever shot with a muzzle break ? God that blast really does sorta disorient you slightly. It is totally unexpected.

[roshnak 41]

It'd be like having to hit a button every time you wanted to blink, or inhale and exhale. Some things just come naturally and don't need a lot of manual adjusting.

Recoil control is definitely not something that just comes naturally, though.

Its like a sports game trying to make you simulate hand-eye coordination.

Not really, because hand-eye coordination is basically the primary skill requirement of most video games. It's their bread and butter. It's one of the easiest skills to transfer to video games.

If your gun is an extension of your hands and arms, then when you have your eye on the target and the recoil begins to raise your gun, your hand-eye coordination kicks in to correct it. This happens unconsciously, I was suggesting that the recoil tapered off to simulate this natural effect instead of having to awkwardly drag my mouse down and off my desk. Of course I wasn't advocating for the elimination of muzzle climb, and I like these recoil changes, but after maybe half the magazine fired on full auto I felt that it should taper off to simulate the natural hand-eye coordination correction.

Ok, a couple of things: First, and with the caveat that I have never fired a fully automatic weapon, it does not seem likely to me recoil control is an unconscious act. It seems to me that it would require deliberate effort to push a continuously recoiling gun back on target. Second, tapering off recoil to simulate your avatar's hand-eye coordination is a surefire way to throw off your actual ability to counter recoil through muscle memory. It is much easier to counter your crosshair moving at a constant rate than it is to continuously adjust for a crosshair moving at changing speeds.

[the_demongod 31]

You ever shot with a muzzle break ? God that blast really does sorta disorient you slightly. It is totally unexpected.

No I haven't actually. But based on the massive cloud of dust that rises up from the ground around the shooter, I can imagine it would be rather surprising if that was all directed back at you :P

[-Coulum- 35]

It'd be like having to hit a button every time you wanted to blink, or inhale and exhale. Some things just come naturally and don't need a lot of manual adjusting.

Compensating with the mouse becomes pretty natural too though. Even to me it was a pretty easy skill to develop (I don't play many games). If you can master real shooting so recoil is a natural extension of your body like you describe, you should be able to do the same with a mouse no? That's the way I see it. When I first started playing pc games, just using the WASD keys to walk was disorienting and unnatural compared to walking in reality. But with a tiny bit of time it become second nature. Now it is even easier than reality. I think the same goes for recoil. Once you get the hang of it the current recoil results in a pretty fair system imo. Definitely better than an other system arma has had to offer.

What are peoples thoughts on 7.62 (EBR) and the submachines' gun recoil. I find that the 7.62 seems a wee bit weak in full auto. And the submachineguns seem to really kick alotmore than I was expecting. Never fired a submachinegun however. Is that at all realistic? I thought they were supposed to be relatively easy to control. But maybe their small size makes it harder? What do you guys think?

Edited February 20, 2015 by -Coulum-

[twisted 127]

I think the same goes for recoil. Once you get the hang of it the current recoil results in a pretty fair system imo. Definitely better than an other system arma has had to offer.

What are peoples thoughts on 7.62 (EBR) and the submachines' gun recoil. I find that the 7.62 seems a wee bit weak in full auto. And the submachineguns seem to really kick alotmore than I was expecting. Never fired a submachinegun however. Is that at all realistic? I thought they were supposed to be relatively easy to control. But maybe their small size makes it harder? What do you guys think?

agree very much so. the lmg's need a little more rock n roll to their recoil - especially the 7.62s. and they should be trickier to hold on target while letting loose on full auto while standing unless you are resting it. bipod should make a very big difference.

[chortles 263]

@ twisted: I have to imagine that the current LMG recoil is temporary (but allowed to go public) since deployment (of bipods) is still WIP and the devs chose not to wait on the latter.

[pettka 694]

Thanks a lot for the feedback everyone, I have moved the part about ammo type standardization into a separate thread to make this one on topic. We are going to evaluate based on Your feedback, just let the recoil sink a bit :icon_twisted:

Edited February 20, 2015 by pettka

[twisted 127]

@ twisted: I have to imagine that the current LMG recoil is temporary (but allowed to go public) since deployment (of bipods) is still WIP and the devs chose not to wait on the latter.

yeah that makes sense man. have to wait and see then.

[roberthammer 582]

After more testing - i have noticed some weird thing

In Full auto recoil looks great but when you shoot multiple shots in semi-auto mode for a example with MX - whole torso kicks back and mainly the spine , it looks weird even more when you shoot fast

almost every weapon has that in semi-auto mode then all pistols recoil kicks whole torso too - most visible it is with Zubr revolver

Edited February 20, 2015 by RobertHammer

[five_seven5-7 56]

Didn't do military service, never shot military grade weapon. From i heard of my comrades in Airsoft, the 7.62 have a big recoil its very difficult to master it in full auto (L1A1 only have semi). MG have a different design and are made to shot in prone position or rested.

About the system implemented its better than the old one. IMO the visual kick should be more sharp and quick (more amplitude and shorter period) except for pistols.

[Brisse 78]

Basically this. Unless, of course, someone can explain why a gun would start recoiling less the longer it is being fired.

Every recoil impulse from the gun is the same of course, it's just about the way your body adapts. Before firing you kind of lean forward a little bit but not to much because then you will fall on your face, but once you pull the trigger your body will lean even more because there's a slight force pushing you backwards (recoil) which your body is trying to counteract. The time it takes to adapt to this is about 3 or 4 shots with an average full auto rifle.

What I'm saying is I want muzzle rise to be large during the first shots, then smaller for the rest of the duration. The muzzle should still wander around, but not just up. It should also wander off to the sides, which it kind of does with the new system.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 ----------

I hate using utube videos as examples because they do not always represent reality but I will break my own rules here. Look closely on this guys muzzle while he fires. It does not rise anything at all. It wanders around, yes, but it does not rise the way Arma3 does. If anything, it actually drops slightly.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I hate using utube videos as examples because they do not always represent reality but I will break my own rules here. Look closely on this guys muzzle while he fires. It does not rise anything at all. It wanders around, yes, but it does not rise the way Arma3 does. If anything, it actually drops slightly.

From what I can tell, the drop is due to the muzzle brake which is expelling gasses sideways and upwards.

[-Coulum- 35]

Every recoil impulse from the gun is the same of course, it's just about the way your body adapts. Before firing you kind of lean forward a little bit but not to much because then you will fall on your face, but once you pull the trigger your body will lean even more because there's a slight force pushing you backwards (recoil) which your body is trying to counteract. The time it takes to adapt to this is about 3 or 4 shots with an average full auto rifle.

What I'm saying is I want muzzle rise to be large during the first shots, then smaller for the rest of the duration. The muzzle should still wander around, but not just up. It should also wander off to the sides, which it kind of does with the new system.

I know what you mean, but this kind of already happens naturally via the mouse (At least for me). You get used to the recoil after the first burst and are able to drag the mouse downwards to compensate better for the rest of it. If anything, having recoil taper would probably mess me up, because I would be dragging the mouse based on the first couple shots, which would be higher recoil than later shots, causing me to drag too much and going below target.

Didn't do military service, never shot military grade weapon. From i heard of my comrades in Airsoft, the 7.62 have a big recoil its very difficult to master it in full auto (L1A1 only have semi).

Yes the 7.62's seem a wee bit weak imo. Should have more kick to them in game.

Edited February 20, 2015 by -Coulum-

[Brisse 78]

You are right about the 7.62's. I have used both 7.62x51 NATO and 5.56x45 NATO IRL, and the former is not practical to use in full auto at all (when speaking about rifles, not MG's). The brits made their L1A1 semi auto only for this reason. The 5.56 is practical in full auto at short range, but 99% of the time you will still shoot semi auto, to make efficient use of ammunition.

Just for reference, these are the long guns I have served with. They all have full auto capability, although it's rarely used.

http://www.soldf.com/ak4.html

http://www.soldf.com/ak5.html

http://www.soldf.com/ak5c.html

[supercereal4 29]

having recoil taper would probably mess me up, because I would be dragging the mouse based on the first couple shots, which would be less recoil than later shots, causing me to drag too much and going below target.

I see what you mean. I was able to play around with it more on my main rig (I originally tested on my laptop) and the high and stable fps really made the difference. The recoil update gave me a performance hit on my laptop so full auto fire was very awkward at 12 fps. It was definitely much easier to learn and control the recoil on my desktop. Therefor I stand corrected.

[roshnak 41]

Every recoil impulse from the gun is the same of course, it's just about the way your body adapts. Before firing you kind of lean forward a little bit but not to much because then you will fall on your face, but once you pull the trigger your body will lean even more because there's a slight force pushing you backwards (recoil) which your body is trying to counteract. The time it takes to adapt to this is about 3 or 4 shots with an average full auto rifle.

What I'm saying is I want muzzle rise to be large during the first shots, then smaller for the rest of the duration. The muzzle should still wander around, but not just up. It should also wander off to the sides, which it kind of does with the new system.

But why? If it's the result of you naturally adapting to the recoil of the gun in real life, why shouldn't the game require you to do the same thing? Why would you want the game to simulate your avatar adapting the the recoil of the gun when it is perfectly possible to actually adapt to the recoil of the gun? You will most likely even see the same results of an an initial muzzle rise (or dip, if the player overcompensates) and then a leveling off of weapon as the player gets a feel for how much (s)he needs to counter the recoil.

Edited February 20, 2015 by roshnak

[NigMax 10]

The only thing I feel needs to be tweaked is the amount of headbob/camera shake when firing fully auto.

When firing a gun like the MX SW 6.5 fully auto through a mag, I actually feel a little sick/uneasy/dizzy and it kinda messes with my vision.

I'd just like to retract my previous opinion on the camera shake. I've spent a little more time with it and I'm getting along with it completely fine and think its great. I generally turn off headbob whenever possible in any game as it can make me nauseous, but after getting used to the recoil shake, and shooting at targets properly I have no issues. I also don't think this should be able to be disabled via in-game options, as it seems integral to the gunplay now and would offer too much of an advantage to those with it disabled.

I tested a few different addon weapon packs - they all felt great too, like they should compared to vanilla.

[twisted 127]

But why? If it's the result of you naturally adapting to the recoil of the gun in real life, why shouldn't the game require you to do the same thing? Why would you want the game to simulate your avatar adapting the the recoil of the gun when it is perfectly possible to actually adapt to the recoil of the gun? You will most likely even see the same results of an an initial muzzle rise (or dip, if the player overcompensates) and then a leveling off of weapon as the player gets a feel for how much (s)he needs to counter the recoil.

i have to aqgree. at the range, no matter how many bullets i put down range, each shot depends on me paying attention and doing things right. i lose concentration and my shots go where i dont want. and moving a mouse a quarter on an inch over a second or two is waaaaaaaay easier than using a rifle properly. besides when resting the lmg it is pretty damn accurate with severly reduced recoil.

[andersson 285]

But why? If it's the result of you naturally adapting to the recoil of the gun in real life, why shouldn't the game require you to do the same thing? Why would you want the game to simulate your avatar adapting the the recoil of the gun when it is perfectly possible to actually adapt to the recoil of the gun? You will most likely even see the same results of an an initial muzzle rise (or dip, if the player overcompensates) and then a leveling off of weapon as the player gets a feel for how much (s)he needs to counter the recoil.

Because with the mouse ingame you never "adapt" as you must keep moving the mouse, while in RL you need to overcome the first shots until the muscles have adapted to the recoil and naturally keep it stationary down. Yes I have shot 7.62x39, 7.62x51 and 5.56 in full auto. It's the same with a fire hose, when you open up the water you get that first sway until the body adjust itself, you don't need to put any conscious effort into holding the hose down. And yes I have worked alot with fire hoses too. For sure, the body is still working to counteracting the recoil but it goes all natural.

[Brisse 78]

Pulling the mouse down to counteract recoil isn't exactly the same thing. With the mouse, it's one constant motion. Once you get the feeling for it, you can get the two first shots almost on the same spot. There's no time delay involved, like it is when handling the real thing, where your whole body has to adapt.

andersson: Guns AND fire hoses? Damn, we seem to have a lot in common....