Recoil Overhaul Feedback

[machineabuse 11]

I have indeed played quite a fair bit of Insurgency. I am inclined to say that I actually prefer ArmA's current execution :)

[megagoth1702 252]

Again I say that the recoil animation needs to be snappier, faster. I really like the "overall feel" when firing in full auto, but single fire needs to be more snappy to be believable to me.

In the current DLC diary one guy said:"it's important to me to bring the same feel into the game that I had when shooting rifles". Well, in the video untrained people shot rifles. Their shooting stance etc. was really not ideal. Of course the recoil is going to be different compared to a trained shooter pressing the rifle firmly into the shoulder. :-/

Just a bit snappier, please.

[lazerstrike 10]

First of all, thank you to the devs for all the hard work and opening up to the community to hear what we have to say. Its nice to know that the people who are making the game/sim are making a genuine effort to please the players.

My firearms background is in competitive shooting and I'm also a certified firearms instructor. In my opinion, as a gamer and firearms "expert" I'm not a fan of the recoil in Arma driving the firearm into the sky under sustained fire and having it just stay there once you're done firing. In real life, a rifle or handgun will naturally return to roughly the same point form which it left without much conscious effort. I can hammer out 30 rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger with say a 5.56 rifle and even without actively trying to fight the recoil I will never gain more than a few degrees of muzzle climb, most of the recoil impulse is rearwards. I want to be clear that I don't have a problem with the magnitude of the recoil, I think its great and very true to life which is what we all love about Arma in the first place....I only have an issue with the way the firearm gains elevation and stays there causing the player to constantly move their mouse downwards with each shot until he/she either runs out of space to keep moving their mouse downwards or the run out of ammunition. The player should absolutely strain to keep control of the firearm under rapid fire, no doubt about it, I just don't feel that we should have to actively compensate for the upwards movement of a gun which gets compensated for naturally in real life. For what its worth I've swapped back between the dev branch/stable and run a few quick tests, it seems like the dev branch weapons have even more "permanent" upward movement.

Edited March 24, 2015 by lazerstrike

[enex 11]

First of all, thank you to the devs for all the hard work and opening up to the community to hear what we have to say. Its nice to know that the people who are making the game/sim are making a genuine effort to please the players.

My firearms background is in competitive shooting and I'm also a certified firearms instructor. In my opinion, as a gamer and firearms "expert" I'm not a fan of the recoil in Arma driving the firearm into the sky under sustained fire and having it just stay there once you're done firing. In real life, a rifle or handgun will naturally return to roughly the same point form which it left without much conscious effort. I can hammer out 30 rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger with say a 5.56 rifle and even without actively trying to fight the recoil I will never gain more than a few degrees of muzzle climb, most of the recoil impulse is rearwards. I want to be clear that I don't have a problem with the magnitude of the recoil, I think its great and very true to life which is what we all love about Arma in the first place....I only have an issue with the way the firearm gains elevation and stays there causing the player to constantly move their mouse downwards with each shot until he/she either runs out of space to keep moving their mouse downwards or the run out of ammunition. The player should absolutely strain to keep control of the firearm under rapid fire, no doubt about it, I just don't feel that we should have to actively compensate for the upwards movement of a gun which gets compensated for naturally in real life. For what its worth I've swapped back between the dev branch and stable and it seems like the dev branch weapons have even more "permanent" upward movement.

I fully agree.I'm not sure thoughts behind us adjusting every press of the trigger with dragging mouse down.Instead of current situation

gun should auto descent down after a recoil.That would make full auto harder to control, but semi shots would be more along lines

of shooter's hands compensating for recoil through time instead of us sliding mouse down.

[razor6014 35]

This might be their experience with guns, if you look at the dev video from yesterday

, i mean i do not handle firearms i'm more into archery,

but the way they handle the guns for me at least tells the whole story

+ some of them have apparent target panic they flinch in anticipation of a shot

and most of them kept their weight on their back foot

, its not their job they are first and foremost programmers

[enex 11]

This might be their experience with guns, if you look at the dev video from yesterday

, i mean i do not handle firearms i'm more into archery,

but the way they handle the guns for me at least tells the whole story

+ some of them have apparent target panic they flinch in anticipation of a shot

and most of them kept their weight on their back foot

, its not their job they are first and foremost programmers

[razor6014 35]

ah the offhand position ... why do people want to learn that one first and not the target standing position ?

[roshnak 41]

First of all, thank you to the devs for all the hard work and opening up to the community to hear what we have to say. Its nice to know that the people who are making the game/sim are making a genuine effort to please the players.

My firearms background is in competitive shooting and I'm also a certified firearms instructor. In my opinion, as a gamer and firearms "expert" I'm not a fan of the recoil in Arma driving the firearm into the sky under sustained fire and having it just stay there once you're done firing. In real life, a rifle or handgun will naturally return to roughly the same point form which it left without much conscious effort. I can hammer out 30 rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger with say a 5.56 rifle and even without actively trying to fight the recoil I will never gain more than a few degrees of muzzle climb, most of the recoil impulse is rearwards. I want to be clear that I don't have a problem with the magnitude of the recoil, I think its great and very true to life which is what we all love about Arma in the first place....I only have an issue with the way the firearm gains elevation and stays there causing the player to constantly move their mouse downwards with each shot until he/she either runs out of space to keep moving their mouse downwards or the run out of ammunition. The player should absolutely strain to keep control of the firearm under rapid fire, no doubt about it, I just don't feel that we should have to actively compensate for the upwards movement of a gun which gets compensated for naturally in real life. For what its worth I've swapped back between the dev branch/stable and run a few quick tests, it seems like the dev branch weapons have even more "permanent" upward movement.

What do you think players should have to compensate for if not upward movement? Strictly side to side movement? We have no control over movement forward and rearward with a mouse.

Edited March 24, 2015 by roshnak

[Gutsnav 13]

This might be their experience with guns, if you look at the dev video from yesterday

, i mean i do not handle firearms i'm more into archery,

but the way they handle the guns for me at least tells the whole story

+ some of them have apparent target panic they flinch in anticipation of a shot

and most of them kept their weight on their back foot

, its not their job they are first and foremost programmers

Well, even if they don't shoot properly, they did consult apparently certifiable sources. It does seem pretty good in the current version. Of course they didn't seem to be using slings but whatever.

[razor6014 35]

They do a good job, do i expect them to perfectly capture shooting ..no,

it is too much work for too small of a payoff that only shooters would notice

and if you want the best shooting experience guess what go outside and shoot

that being said we do live in a time when kids think cows are purple

[lazerstrike 10]

What do you think players should have to compensate for if not upward movement? Strictly side to side movement? We have no control over movement forward and rearward with a mouse.

There should be some upward movement for sure, but once the recoil seizes the weapon should return to roughly its original position. Try firing 30 rounds in semi-auto slowly without adding any other input to the mouse, at the end of the magazine you will be aiming into the sky....does that seem realistic or desirable? I'm fine with compensating for upward movement while there is a recoil impulse but once I stop shooting I should no longer have to significantly readjust my aim. Shooting in semi-auto should consist of making fine x,y adjustments to get back on target after every shot, not moving my mouse downwards an inch per shot just to get back to level.

[roberthammer 582]

These issues are still valid > http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?188999-Recoil-Overhaul-Feedback&p=2903557&viewfull=1#post2903557

also both new MGs need stronger recoils

Edited March 24, 2015 by RobertHammer

[roshnak 41]

Try firing 30 rounds in semi-auto slowly without adding any other input to the mouse

Why would I ever do this, though?

And, yes, for a video game it does seem desirable to me. I would rather have control over compensating for recoil than give that control to the game.

I understand the argument that recoil is naturally compensated for in real life, but it's not actually that natural. It's a learned technique. As the video posted by enex shows, there are ways to be more or less effective at compensating for recoil. Put a gun in a new, untrained shooter's hand and they will compensate for recoil less effectively than a trained shooter almost every time. In my opinion, making players manually counter vertical and side to side recoil is the best way to approximate that in a video game with only a mouse to control the weapon.

[enex 11]

While learned technique works in real life with muscles I don't think we should simulate that

with mouse.We have to keep dragging out mouse down while in life weight of weapon

and hands would take care of that.

[lazerstrike 10]

Why would I ever do this, though?

As an experiment to show that A3 has a very unusual recoil behavior in this respect. No other game/sim that I have seen results in the player aiming at the sky at the end when doing this with slow fire.

And, yes, for a video game it does seem desirable to me. I would rather have control over compensating for recoil than give that control to the game.

I'm not sure what you're sensitivity settings/mouse setup is but I quickly run out of mouse travel since I have to move my mouse downwards significantly with every shot. I end up having to pick my mouse up and re-adjust more than I should have to IMO.

I understand the argument that recoil is naturally compensated for in real life, but it's not actually that natural. It's a learned technique. As the video posted by enex shows, there are ways to be more or less effective at compensating for recoil. Put a gun in a new, untrained shooter's hand and they will compensate for recoil less effectively than a trained shooter almost every time. In my opinion, making players manually counter vertical and side to side recoil is the best way to approximate that in a video game with only a mouse to control the weapon.

Well we have to assume that our operator avatars have some basic level of weapons manipulation and control - they have proper sight alignment, trigger control, stance, reloading technique etc... why should they not also have proper recoil management? I'm not saying that the current recoil system is too hard, it should be hard and there needs to be enough manual control in order to differentiate between the players skill levels...... I just think it needs to be change to be less cumbersome and more realistic. The best way to do that in my opinion is to have to compensate for some upward and side to side movement while firing in full auto and to only have to make small fine inputs to get the weapon back on target during slow fire.

Edited March 24, 2015 by lazerstrike

[roshnak 41]

As an experiment to show that A3 has a very unusual recoil behavior in this respect. No other game/sim that I have seen results in the player aiming at the sky at the end when doing this with slow fire.

Really? Day of Defeat, Killing Floor, Red Orchestra, Insurgency, and Infiltration (highly praised for its realism) all had recoil systems like this. And those are just games that I have currently installed, I'm sure there are more.

I'm not sure what you're sensitivity settings/mouse setup is but I quickly run out of mouse travel since I have to move my mouse downwards significantly with every shot. I end up having to pick my mouse up and re-adjust more than I should have to IMO.

My sensitivity is set to 0.5 at 1000 DPI which results in about 11.5 inches of travel to rotate 360 degrees. I don't find myself having to pick up my mouse any more than I do in any other game. I also don't think there is anything wrong with having to pick up the mouse, I do it all the time in video games without even thinking about it. It especially shouldn't make a difference during slow fire. I also don't have much trouble firing off 200 rounds from the Mk200 an auto, though:

Well we have to assume that our operator avatars have some basic level of weapons manipulation and control - they have proper sight alignment, trigger control, stance, reloading technique etc... why should they not also have proper recoil management?

Why do we have to assume this, especially with recoil? I can't think of a single way to allow player input on sight alignment, trigger control, or shooting stance that wouldn't wind up feeling bad and clunky in a game like this. The only ways I can think of doing it for reloading would be with timing minigames and I bet that would get old pretty quick. Making players manually control recoil is a simple, obvious game mechanic that is in plenty of other video games. It feels natural and intuitive. It also accounts for many aspects of shooting and recoil control. Stance, grip, leaning into shots, these are all things that don't need to be their own gameplay mechanics if they are abstracted into a recoil mechanic that demands that players actively push the mouse down to correct for recoil.

As for your suggestion: How, specifically, do you see such a system working? Because it seems to me that it could potentially be more cumbersome for anyone who already knows how to counter recoil effectively in the game.

Edited March 25, 2015 by roshnak

[razor6014 35]

Why do we have to assume this, especially with recoil? I can't think of a single way to allow player input on sight alignment, trigger control, or shooting stance that wouldn't wind up feeling bad and clunky in a game like this. The only ways I can think of doing it for reloading would be with timing minigames and I bet that would get old pretty quick. Making players manually control recoil is a simple, obvious game mechanic that is in plenty of other video games. It feels natural and intuitive. It also accounts for many aspects of shooting and recoil control. Stance, grip, leaning into shots, these are all things that don't need to be their own gameplay mechanics if they are abstracted into a recoil mechanic that demands that players actively push the mouse down to correct for recoil.

As for your suggestion: How, specifically, do you see such a system working? Because it seems to me that it could potentially be more cumbersome for anyone who already knows how to counter recoil effectively in the game.

Well at least you two agree when the weapon is firing you need to control it with the mouse ,

as far as after , why do you need to move the mouse when gravity should do the work for you ?

[tranquillity 10]

Well at least you two agree when the weapon is firing you need to control it with the mouse ,

as far as after , why do you need to move the mouse when gravity should do the work for you ?

are you serious?

and I can't even think of why the guy before complained about having to adjust against recoil more than he feels he should. are you even serious or trolling?

What else do you think should the game offer to be authentic? you can never simulate shooting with a mouse and keyboard...

but yet you have to practise a little to get a good control.

but with the recent changes it is possible and actually fun to shoot, the combination of better recoil, weapon resting+deployment make the gun game a lot more enjoyable.

If you think you should move the mouse less to counter recoil while emptying a mag....well then that is your problem.

pulling the mouse down to counter recould is the analogy to having practised shooting in real live...including stance, hand eye coordination, position etc.

both pulling down the mouse and shooting in real life can be picked up and practised...if you try to.

Edited March 25, 2015 by tranquillity

[enex 11]

"Why do you need to use your mouse in game when in real life gravity do work for you"

Counter argument is "you can never simulate shooting with mouse" and pulling mouse

down is analogy to practiced shooting in life.

We can't simulate shooting with mouse but we do approximate it.

To me pulling down mouse to counter recoil doesn't signify practiced

shooting in real life.What would however is me taking single shots

and waiting for weapon to descent down because of it's weight.

//There is no trolling involved whatsoever.It's really a difference of opinion that is all.

[razor6014 35]

lazerstrike was talking that after you stop clicking the aim should be where it started , currently you take one shot yes it moves the gun up and right as it should

but stops there as if the solider wanted to stop the weapon there and not letting gravity do the work for him and let the gun settle to the original position.

why are you aggressive ?

[enex 11]

why are you aggressive ?

Like even if people do have different opinion is not end of the world,

neither is different argument meaning a personal attack

at the end of the day different thoughts makes us human.

[Jackal326 1181]

At the end of it all, as stated by a few different people above, no game can accurately simulate firing a weapon, or being in a war-zone for that matter by only using a keyboard and mouse. Game design needs to incorporate some element of user input to perform accurate rapid-rate of fire without feeling like a point and click exercise. I think in its current state ArmA does this very well (note: not saying it can't be improved, but having the recoil reset your aim perfectly and automatically, its a step-backward in the "simulation" market). Don't get me wrong, I'm not an experienced handler of weapons, nor am I in the military or have been in a combat zone (apart from the local town on a Friday night), but eliminating user-input completely (i.e. the mouse-dragging down to reset your aim after a shot) would take a lot of the fun, not to mention skill out of the game.

[roshnak 41]

We can't simulate shooting with mouse but we do approximate it.

To me pulling down mouse to counter recoil doesn't signify practiced

shooting in real life.What would however is me taking single shots

and waiting for weapon to descent down because of it's weight.

Where would the practice and skill come in, then?

[razor6014 35]

At the end of it all, as stated by a few different people above, no game can accurately simulate firing a weapon, or being in a war-zone for that matter by only using a keyboard and mouse. Game design needs to incorporate some element of user input to perform accurate rapid-rate of fire without feeling like a point and click exercise. I think in its current state ArmA does this very well (note: not saying it can't be improved, but having the recoil reset your aim perfectly and automatically, its a step-backward in the "simulation" market). Don't get me wrong, I'm not an experienced handler of weapons, nor am I in the military or have been in a combat zone (apart from the local town on a Friday night), but eliminating user-input completely (i.e. the mouse-dragging down to reset your aim after a shot) would take a lot of the fun, not to mention skill out of the game.

I can understand that , for instance one scenario that is fairly common in shooting is that you can by feel shoot a dead center of a target even if the sight picture is not perfect ( long story short it takes to long for you to see a sight picture decide to take a shot and send the impulse to your hand to jerk the trigger so you rely on automatic skill ). This goes both ways actualy so you can make what you think is a good shot but its out.

This is impossible to translate to a game.

The reason why i don't like this is one of the principles of shooting is never waste energy that you don't need to. Using muscles ie moving the mouse violates that principle . That's why it feels wrong.

[Jackal326 1181]

The reason why i don't like this is one of the principles of shooting is never waste energy that you don't need to. Using muscles ie moving the mouse violates that principle . That's why it feels wrong.

I understand that. However, remember that this is just a game. Granted it is a fairly realistic game (depending upon how you play it, who you play it with and the missions/addons used etc), but realism does not necessarily translate into fun game play. As I outlined in my previous reply, I think ArmA has a reasonable balance between the two, without taking the skill out of aiming without making it too easy.