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Tyl3r99

AI modders should combine to make 1 AI mod

Should AI modders combine into 1 total AI modification?  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. Should AI modders combine into 1 total AI modification?

    • Yes
      26
    • No
      12


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i have noticed there are a few AI mods that improve the AI vastly in different areas, some in driving better than shooting etc etc.

so for arguments sake lets say AI mod 1 had better accuracy levels than AI mod 2.

Ai mod 2 had better supression than Ai mod 3 and 1.

AI mod 3 had better driving than AI mod 2 and 1

(you know what im trying to get at)

to save the argument "WHICH IS THE BEST TO PLAY WITH"

I suggest maybe if we ask nicely they could combine forces to make 1 AI total conversion where it would improve everything altogether.

rather than have 4-5 different AI related modifications.

what you all think?

Please let this be a casual discussion, and i do not wish people to slag off anyones work at any time.

id like to quickly take the time to thank all the AI modders out there for their hard work.

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Good luck.

---------- Post added at 16:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

I think it would be a mess to try to combine the code from all the AI modders. That's even if they'd be willing to do something like this.

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Good luck.

---------- Post added at 16:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

I think it would be a mess to try to combine the code from all the AI modders. That's even if they'd be willing to do something like this.

you maybe right, but it potentially COULD be possible if they decided to do this, some may be stronger a coding than others and some maybe stronger in other departments, but teamwork is key to refine and improve the code if need be.

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one should mind his own business...or if he so desires, get his own hands dirty in the process...

on a more serious note, this is never gonna happen. Just like with combining all the cool mods (no matter of scope or content) which is completely utopia. There are a lot of reasons, the most obvious one being incompatibility (of any kind that is - personal, code, timezones, etc)

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As PuFu mentioned, there are all sorts of reasons why this won't happen.

If you want mod Utopia, then the best way is to start learning how to mod (it's not hard, it just takes time). Then you can make your own version of what you think the game should be.

If people like your vision, they will jump on board (modellers will build models you need, sound guys will help out with samples) etc.

You just have to show a modicum of vision, desire and more importantly, perseverance.

You may think that it's bollocks for me to expect you to be able do that, but that's how every person who released a script/mod ever got started.

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Many mods do many things. As such, it becomes an issues when trying to merge all of it. Some AI mods are great enhancements to the base AI, while some totally rework how the AI works. This creates a significant difference, as some that fit the latter totally break single player content. What if people want better AI that doesn't totally break the games basic mechanics of following waypoints in a certain manner? AI mods like ASR AI compliment the AI in this way, yet Group Link 5 would totally break that framework.

It really goes back down to what the user wants their experience to be. One size does not fit all.

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Maybe the developers themselves ie BI should fix the AI rather than modders. This is a key part of the game when playing PVE.

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While I've seen more of the dev philosophy more with Eagle Dynamics than with BIS, the overall thing is that they can't think of everything, and give us the ability to further enhance what they have made. Sure for PVE I use the EOS scripts but overall it's just easier for the devs to do what they can and let us modders enhance it. Besides after over a decade they realize this and therefore not only make it able to, but in a way encourage us to mod their game. I mean if it was like EA where you can't ever mod anything, then this game series wouldn't be as popular as it is.

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There are two ways to move forward. Either what happens is individual behaviours are separated out so that different mods do different parts of enhancement or alternatively a super mod is built containing all the features and configuration is used to control it. One AI system certainly doesn't fit all. Some games like Alive for example require a lot of macro AI, attacking and defending positions. Whereas a community doing building clearance or MOUT or just 10 guys wont have a big macro game going they will have a small single objective AO. They don't want the AI choosing to reinforce another location they are meant to be where they were placed.

But if you want to tackle this problem then I would argue the best way to go about doing it is yourself. You need to look into all the major AI mods, see how they do things, copy and modify the best of it and combine it into a mod compatible with mission making tools. I for one like the idea, I would like some better combat AI but I don't really care for the bigger tactical positioning all that much.

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While I've seen more of the dev philosophy more with Eagle Dynamics than with BIS, the overall thing is that they can't think of everything, and give us the ability to further enhance what they have made. Sure for PVE I use the EOS scripts but overall it's just easier for the devs to do what they can and let us modders enhance it. Besides after over a decade they realize this and therefore not only make it able to, but in a way encourage us to mod their game. I mean if it was like EA where you can't ever mod anything, then this game series wouldn't be as popular as it is.

True but this is their core product ie. Terrain + vehicles + infantry vs enemy inf. Before you develop more stuff, you're supposed to ensure you core product is fully functional and works well. BI have done a lot of great things (terrain, models, etc) however they've also missed important things like weapon resting, bipods, etc...you know, the basic tools of any infantryman esp if you use weapons that require stability eg. LMGs, MGs, long range sniping, etc. Unlike the movies, anyone who has actually used a proper rifle will know you need a stable platform as part of basic marksmanship principles. The ARMA website states "Experience true combat gameplay in a massive military sandbox. Authentic, diverse, open - Arma 3 sends you to war." what they forgot to add was 'oh and no bipod support and we've introduced lots of weapon sway'. :)

A good example was the other night, I was playing on an insurgency server. I was upstairs and spotted an enemy inf below. However, I could NOT keep my rifle pointed at him...even though my rifle was 'leaning' on the window sill, I was uninjured and was not fatigued. That is ridiculous.

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True but this is their core product ie. Terrain + vehicles + infantry vs enemy inf. Before you develop more stuff, you're supposed to ensure you core product is fully functional and works well. BI have done a lot of great things (terrain, models, etc) however they've also missed important things like weapon resting, bipods, etc...you know, the basic tools of any infantryman esp if you use weapons that require stability eg. LMGs, MGs, long range sniping, etc. Unlike the movies, anyone who has actually used a proper rifle will know you need a stable platform as part of basic marksmanship principles. The ARMA website states "Experience true combat gameplay in a massive military sandbox. Authentic, diverse, open - Arma 3 sends you to war." what they forgot to add was 'oh and no bipod support and we've introduced lots of weapon sway'. :)

A good example was the other night, I was playing on an insurgency server. I was upstairs and spotted an enemy inf below. However, I could NOT keep my rifle pointed at him...even though my rifle was 'leaning' on the window sill, I was uninjured and was not fatigued. That is ridiculous.

Obviously you haven't seen the latest sitrep where they finally confirmed weapon resting and bipods. I feel like it will complement the new fatigue/sway system nicely in terms of balancing some of the inevitable difficulty that most people who are used to point and click shooters will have. Lets also look at sling-loading, another unbelievably useful tool. BI did it a ton better than any mod has. Most mods essentially were just an attach too command with a static rope. While BI's sling-loading works on similar principles, the fact that the weight affects the flight model of the helo, as well as the fact that it just looks better due to the fact that it uses the physics engine. Bohemia has stated that weapon resting will be passive, while deploying a bipod will be an active system. I'm taking this as you won't need to think about resting your weapon as that should happen automatically, however, you'll probably have a command to deploy your bipod.

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Nope, I certainly have. My issue with this is, ARMA 3 was released in approx Sept 13. Its now Feb 15 and they've finally mentioned something about it....thats about 15 months for something essential to the standard infantryman (most dom/insurgency servers have you playing as an infantryman armed primarily with a rifle or LMG). I don't know if you've ever fired a modern auto rifle, however the recoil is quite manageable and, esp if you're in the proper position resting, you can be quite accurate up to your effective range of about 300m. In ARMA3, the induced sway is ridiculous. Maybe instead of making it harder to hit a target....focus on the target making it harder to see/hit them (which is the point of this thread).

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AI modders should combine to make 1 AI mod

Need a question mark at the end there but i think to make that happen you would need to make a list of all the features each mod has then locate

the coding for such features and turn some off be it a true or false statement, and then build a config that utilizes all the mods together in one mod.

Something like this has already been done for OFP for all the WW2 mods, so I would think its definitely possible, would take some time to do it as you

need to compare notes, and do a ton of testing.

As for all the modders getting together and building one AI mod, wont happen, and never will, it would have already been done after all these years, you also need to consider

that all the modders in the community aren't a company entity, they are people with inspiration for creating something based on what they like and feel the game needs and is

or lacking, so really all the mods Ai specifically are all personal customizations of code to make the AI perform a certain way based on the user's preference.

You would want to form a team of like minded individuals to pull a 1 Ai mod off type mod, I cant be done though, so its not like its not possible just that there needs

to be the intention there to do it and a good idea of what each member is doing, and above all else time for it, as we all have a real life here, all these mods are just a hobby.

Also the intention needs to be solid you cant have an inspiring idea and then gather a bunch of guys and a week later their not interested, so you need a

real purpose, and a plan, and idea of how to go about it.

Edited by Günter Severloh

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ASR_AI, AGM, bCombat and several other AI mods of note are all on Github and to my knowledge do not explicitly state anything against modifications. There's nothing keeping you or anyone from forking them all and creating a best-of-all-worlds AI mod.

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Find the one thing most failing in an Ai, and fix that. I find it funny how some will think "I'm just going to drive up and shoot this group of AI in the face because they're AI, they're not smart", and then get one tapped in the face and claim the AI are broken. Some complain the AI's aim is too good, and some the opposite. Honestly I like AI that are dangerous to encounter due to the fact their good shooting makes up for some lack of human like movement. Adding movement to AI isn't that serious either, plenty of mods do it. With AGM, I fired on a group of Opfor, few minutes later almost died because they flanked and hunted me down. BIS has also mentioned updates to AI, such as more "human" like shooting.

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?

A good example was the other night, I was playing on an insurgency server. I was upstairs and spotted an enemy inf below. However, I could NOT keep my rifle pointed at him...even though my rifle was 'leaning' on the window sill, I was uninjured and was not fatigued. That is ridiculous.

So? nothing to do with the OP. OP is about telling AI modders what to do(lame). Your post is about your bitch. Get a weapon-rest mod, or play on servers that have it. pifft

As is the case in most "General" postings , its only what is perceived missing. And all are ridiculous... all are fail... all are rage... all are on my ignore.

Oh ASR_AI for MP, bCombat for SP, AGM not on my comp (I like a stable game),ACE3 for life.

The best parts of them(subjective) combined with performance being paramount(ASRai) would be nice.

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Nope, I certainly have. My issue with this is, ARMA 3 was released in approx Sept 13. Its now Feb 15 and they've finally mentioned something about it....thats about 15 months for something essential to the standard infantryman (most dom/insurgency servers have you playing as an infantryman armed primarily with a rifle or LMG). I don't know if you've ever fired a modern auto rifle, however the recoil is quite manageable and, esp if you're in the proper position resting, you can be quite accurate up to your effective range of about 300m. In ARMA3, the induced sway is ridiculous. Maybe instead of making it harder to hit a target....focus on the target making it harder to see/hit them (which is the point of this thread).

It's about management, if you don't manage your fatigue and conserve your energy (like you have to do in real life) then you'll be fine, you'll be able to stabilize your breath and re-acquire your target long enough to shoot them. And while I haven't fired a modern auto-rifle, I have fired weapons before (keep in mind, I'm not a trained shooter) and I would say that were I to fire an automatic weapon, I would probably have difficulty controlling recoil with sustained fire. Also I had to control the sway myself, using my shoulder as a pivot. The less I thought about controlling it, the worse it got. It's definitely something I'd like to have more experience with. Regardless, most shooters have such a copy-paste sway mechanic which just feels off for most of the weapons it's used for. I still think that the advent of weapon resting will help balance the sway mechanic. Now if we could only get AI to properly clear a building. Actually, that's what I'd like from an AI mod. Good CQB and room-clearing mechanics.

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Find the one thing most failing in an Ai, and fix that. I find it funny how some will think "I'm just going to drive up and shoot this group of AI in the face because they're AI, they're not smart", and then get one tapped in the face and claim the AI are broken. Some complain the AI's aim is too good, and some the opposite. Honestly I like AI that are dangerous to encounter due to the fact their good shooting makes up for some lack of human like movement. Adding movement to AI isn't that serious either, plenty of mods do it. With AGM, I fired on a group of Opfor, few minutes later almost died because they flanked and hunted me down. BIS has also mentioned updates to AI, such as more "human" like shooting.

The biggest AI fix that is really needed right now that almost none of the current AI mods cover? Proper vehicle control, even now AI STILL can't reverse properly, they treat there vehicles as if they were still on foot. They can't maintain a basic formation on flat land as a grouped tank platoon.... Really, I would actually pay a modder simply to fix those issues with the AI. I honestly don't care about more "Human like shooting", if you play Arma 2: AO the AI vehicle handling as groups is far better.

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Why something which I should expect being delivered from Bis, should be committed to modders?

That's something really I can't understand.

We are not talking about a vehicle or even a faction. We're talking about an Ai which is the "in se" of this game.

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And who is going to pay who for this incredible amount of work? Or is it supposed to be 'hobby' work and thus free? :)

A serious AI mod will take many hundreds of hours work, probably from more than one person. And coding AI, it does feel like work.

Think about it ...

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BI has already stated that they were attempting AI improvements alongside the new features...

Obviously you haven't seen the latest sitrep where they finally confirmed weapon resting and bipods. I feel like it will complement the new fatigue/sway system nicely in terms of balancing some of the inevitable difficulty that most people who are used to point and click shooters will have.
Let me add to this that BI has declared via SITREP #00092 that recoil changes are coming as well.

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well I'm very happy with BI finally focusing on this. As I've stated previously, IMHO ARMA 3 is primarily an infantry sim. A good example is say a domination/insurgency server...yes there are a handful of pilots (usually max 5-8 depending on server size) however the majority of players become infantrymen (and enjoy it). So from this perspective, I'm quite happy. Just can't come quick enough (cake and eat it too blah blah blah). :)

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Guess it's a hard\impossible objective to achieve: different places of the world, different times exc.

I would prefer Bohemia to directly those AI problems so that modders can focus on new features and improvements, instead of fixing AI bugs (or lacks) :)

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