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skelig

Is a few weekends worth of work worth half a million Euro?

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While I can recognize that the hard work put into these addons by the content creators is far beyond my own ability, I find myself pretty disappointed at the variety of finalist mods. where is the logic in having a mod with one unit to show (Reign of Jurassic) in a finalist spot for a 500,000 euro prize? Correct me if i'm wrong but all these mods can't be more than a few hundred hours worth of work give or take a few? I wonder if UI scripts that add extra things to game play or ported models from earlier ArmA games is what Bohemia envisioned what would take that half mil for the "total modification" prize.

And with 2 months to go almost half of the finalists have little to no more progress to show than they did when they first entered the competition (looking at you lost dragons and Reign of Jurassic) and while I appreciate the humor behind LOsounds2, do you truly believe that is 500,000 euro's worth of work? I am most likely tarnishing whatever reputation I have on here by sharing my thoughts on this but I think it was a bit of an error on BI's part for not gauging the interest correctly, the money from this contest could have gone towards better modding documentation and tools to use.

Some of the mods are very impressive I do not want to take sides by naming favorites, but mods such as those were a penny a pound in ArmA 2, releasing often and not generating a huge amount of interest. I think Bohemia would do well to ask the community why the people who made full conversion mods like I44, HiP, Unsung and VTE for ArmA 2 did not jump at the chance to win this massive prize by coming to ArmA 3. I have not done much modding for ArmA 3 because it does not perform so well on my computer, I recognize that the multiplayer for ArmA 2 total conversion mods died within a few weeks therefore when I joined a total conversion team I worked so I could be able to play the game with my own content, not for anyone else but because ArmA 3 performs like it does on my computer I have no incentive to do so. There is another thing this competition funds could have been spent on - addressing performance issues.

Reading through this again it seems like I am jealous that someone is going to win 500,000 grand I am truly not, I wish them all the best, I just wonder why more people didn't jump at the chance that's all.

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The finalists for the singleplayer category were determined via community voting, the finalists for all three other categories were determined by Bohemia and friends (read: based on what they liked).

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Aside from your general points or general criticism with the approach of the/of a competition,

you should take some time to read about the details of the competition (like the prizes).

Why did various previous large mods not participate?

1) Because they are dead/don't have the motivation and/or manpower for the considerable effort to port their work to A3.

2) Due to many people contributing, they have a unclear ownership scenarios and as such its almost impossible to clear the rights and thus participate at all.

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Presumably it also came down to how money would be split if a multi-contributor mod won a category. For example, this comment by this forum's own KoffeinFlummi mentions both the details of AGM entering MANW (cinched by Taosenai allowing his TMR content in AGM, but all "people who contributed code/translations/etc. to AGM" were offered a week to veto the MANW entry) and how the 200,000 euros from a Total Modification win would be allocated.

Presumably some of the previous large mods' teams didn't come to such a resolution, for whatever reason.

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I kind of agree with the OP, this contest is a nice gesture from BIS but that monetizing way of supporting the community isn't the most efficient way to do it imho, and the idea of a contest with such a huge price is against what i thought the "community spirit" was. Time has changed.

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...And with 2 months to go almost half of the finalists have little to no more progress to show than they did when they first entered the competition (looking at you lost dragons...

I too would have liked to have done more, but our little 3 man team began the mod from scratch and put in every hour we could and what we got out and uploaded was all we could do.

When we started I had imagined we would be uploading a mod far in its roadmap with multiple new units and game mechanics.. Oh boy when the rose tinted glasses fell off :D Modding is hard work and although I understood the basics of Arma modding there were still so many new things that I had to learn to get some assets to work and our coder had never before done arma scripting in his life. He learned fast though and eventually reworked our core functions many times over to make them better. I don't think the half year a year after the tools came out was very long time to make a full total conversion mod though. But its a hobby so can you really expect more? (Yes, but its not realistic ;9 )

I personally think that with the money prizes Bohemia wanted to attract more new modders to the community as ranks of the old guard are thinning and since Arma series has had really strong mod community it has helped to attract more people to play Arma. What I've read and heard it has worked too, there are many more aspiring modders now out there asking the same questions I've pondered with couple of years ago and envisioning their perfect mod. Hopefully they have the patience to stick around and do great things and I do wish the old gurus still have patience to answer the same old questions and that their knowledge is passed on.

You do have a point that the money could have been spent on more elaborate modding documentation and perhaps even on tool development, but I would like to believe there is some effort put into them despite the money thats being given away.

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Personally, I think the money would have been much better spent more directly supporting specific modders / projects within the community who have made long-standing and extremely valuable contributions, not only to this community, but to Bohemia's bank balance. Not just with monetary contribution, but perhaps with reserving some of that cash towards supporting the needs of people trying to port big projects that would seek to fill the lack of content in the vanilla game.

And, the best way to attract new modders (in my opinion) would have been to put a much greater emphasis on making the job of modders easier, rather than the pain in the ass it can be now.

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I haven't kept up on this at all. Have the finalists already been picked ?

Anyway.

The money could have been spent better (imo) paying 'many' talented mod/addon makers for their work, on a scale system. But only the work that improves the game overall, not to try and find another DayZ. There are mods out there that change A3, help the base game, play better. It would have encouraged more of these people to turn their hand to making those mod/addons that improve the gaming experience. I mean the base game of war/combat, not zombies, dinosaurs, etc but ones that help the base game improve.

Think of the highest/max amount/payment, say 500 euro payments made to lots of makers that improve further the series. Plus lots & lots of further smaller payments being made to smaller mod/addons that impact well on the game. Not one single competition, but an ongoing thing for a few years. That could have meant the amount being spread between a few thousand talented people making these things over time.

Seems a waste and a gimmick, or an excuse to find the next 'DayZ'.

Good luck to whoever wins though, it was a competition you could enter, so why not. BI could have done a little better though and helped more people create more stuff.:confused:

Just in my view.

So yes I do, partly, agree with the OP.

Edit: just a thought, is the cosmos engine mod in the finalists ?

Edited by ChrisB

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I haven't kept up on this at all. Have the finalists already been picked ?
Yes, and no Cosmos Engine was not a finalist.
The money could have been spent better (imo) paying 'many' talented mod/addon makers for their work, on a scale system.
Ehhhh... based on what kju described, I'm not sure that this was ever in the cards.
Seems a waste and a gimmick, or an excuse to find the next 'DayZ'.
I'd long ago thought that it was the latter.

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I like the prizes, even if they were not my motivation to join the contest. "Spending money on xyz" sounds nice but it's not that easy. You can't just throw money at a computer and expect it to write a better documentation or develop tools. Plus the prize money is probably from the marketing department's budget. And they had a similar contest years ago only with way smaller prizes. It's okay I guess, I don't expect to make it into the top three anyway.^^

Oh, and my project was about an eight month's effort with an average of ~20 hours a week (February 2014 until deadline). So, around four man-months. And I was studying full-time and working part-time as research assistant over the whole eight months. (No idea how I made it, honestly.) Still, 50.000 would be a good rate for the time put in. However, the contest is not about who works the most, but who has cool ideas or innovative concepts. Of course, BI will probably harvest our projects and ideas for their own products. Was a great time though, and the contest certainly pushed my will to actually finish the job. :)

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Just to add to my previous comments. I also don't mean to take anything away from those who did enter the contest. I hope you get a piece. My comments were strictly about having the contest in the first place and/or how it was structured, and were opinions directed directly towards Bohemia.

I fault no one for having entered the contest and taken advantage of an opportunity.

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I'm disappointed in the contest myself. The categories were all wrong. ALiVE, CSE, AGM is total modification? And some projects go back years. With a whole team of devs. How is that fair?

I started from scratch knowing nothing about ArmA at the start of this. I turned in my SpookWarCom (click Sig), which added HALO/Parajump, Scout/Sniper, Sub/Diver, Terrorists/EOD, SOCOM, etc.

I got beat out by Glasses and a Wind mod...

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Actually, we're a little disappointed, not with the finalists, congratulations to all of them, just with BIS, we would have liked to know the selection criterium chosen.

We do not see any kind of logic in choosing the finalists! We have even seen finalists were less than 100 votes, some with 50 votes, and we thought it was a requirement to be in the finals have a minimum of 100 votes.

We like to read about that were elected and unelected few others, but we know this will not happen ...

regards

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Actually, we're a little disappointed, not with the finalists, congratulations to all of them, just with BIS, we would have liked to know the selection criterium chosen.

We do not see any kind of logic in choosing the finalists! We have even seen finalists were less than 100 votes, some with 50 votes, and we thought it was a requirement to be in the finals have a minimum of 100 votes.

Selection criteria for finalists:

- Technical quality: technical design, optimization and innovative solution of an Entry;

- Originality: originality and innovation of an Entry's concept;

- Experience: overall gameplay experience, balance of design and challenge presented by an Entry;

- Presentation: coherence and consistency of an Entry's presentation in terms of functionality and expression.

No mention of votes or popularity. (Except for SP mode entries)

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as a addonmaker/mission maker since ofp days, here is my 2 cents why it failed (because I claim it does).

The huge amount of money complicate things

I could had submitted Swedish Forces Pack, but how on earth would I share the money between people that done awesome models (but in very little time) and those that been working for years with small minor changes? What about everyone that donated models from other groups, I barely know who is the orginator. Some even "left internet" to go on with their life.

Money equal pressure

Seeing the amount of money,the pressure to deliver something ass-kicking amazing was high. I spoke with some model makers to team up and make something just for this competition in order to sort out the above issue. Even with professionals (that work at game studios) and my 10+ years experience we didn't really think we would have a chance... so eventually we didn't bother to submit any addons.

There is also the issue that lots of money = lack of performance, more here

How it should had be done

To solve the issue there are several ways.

One option could be that the winning team gets to select which chairty to give the money to. Then it isn't about the money itself..

For missions, it probably would had been better to give out 100 Euro, each month for "BIS's favorite mission". That way many people would have the chance and we would for sure see a bigger varity.

The only thing I ended up submitting was a mission that I did in a few hours.. only reason I did it was because right before the deadline I took a look and thought to myself "seriously? nobody even bothered to do anything regarding the red cross challenge?".. I am almost a bit ashamed because the mission is thrown together but I hope I atleast rasied the bar a few inches because there was so few entries.

Edited by granQ

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Is a few weekends worth of work worth half a million Euro?

Well, I guess now jury will answer that question by the verdict. 500.000 is the sum of all prizes BTW, so no one will get that much. TM - 200.000 is max.

Not amount of work hours or efforts matter, but the result judged by listed criteria according to taste of the jury members. Rules are clear, what's worthy of prizes.

BTW A mod in the final/winning the prize made in 100 hours is IMO much, much bigger achievement worthy of recognition than 1000 hours put into something, that not make it. Being able for such efforts is an achievement too, just out of contest criteria.

Congratulations to all finalists. And for the all, who was able to put hundreds and more work hours into their work - not trivial thing, such perseverance, something to be proud of and for sure useful virtue in life.

Edited by Rydygier

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@benamaina

I'm totaly agree with that, a guy from my group create the "Armageddon " mod for Muliplayer contest, he spent much 1000 hours to make the script work well for the tornado and other stuff, depending of optimisation for other player, he got 224 supporter, he was promoted, is mod was downloaded more than 40 000 time and he don't have a place for the final ? It feel like Bi's choose randomly the finalist, no offence for @zooloo75 but i feel like the "AIRSOFT: BRING YOUR A-GAME" with 45 supporter was a exemple of the bad choose by Bi's ... And i know my lack of bias because i know the autor of ArmAgeddon

they supposed to vote with this condition or i'm wrong ?

- Technical quality: technical design, optimization and innovative solution of an Entry;

- Originality: originality and innovation of an Entry's concept;

- Experience: overall gameplay experience, balance of design and challenge presented by an Entry;

- Presentation: coherence and consistency of an Entry's presentation in terms of functionality and expression.

Sorry for the "coup de gueule" =)

http://makearmanotwar.com/entry/eba3yzQZev

Edited by 1REV_clem64121
more information

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Also, all due respect to Laxemann, i love his ES mod. But that sound mod with voice "beng beng" sounds is a finalist for total modification??? Bis, that is NOT what a total modification is. Wtf is going on here?

Multiplayer finalists are a let down too. Airsoft? What about DTAS?

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Yes I think it is strange that some categories has been voted by only few people from BIS, and no the community? What was the interest to place some sort of vote so??

I'm maybe stupid... :j:

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I don't know if I agree with OP or not by saying that I am mostly rather underwhelmed by the chosen finalists and the stuff they presented. Anyway, I am not a judge here (luckily) so...

I hope there are some interesting technologies under the hood of the selected works that can contribute to Arma's future development. If not, I would say it wasn't worth the competition.

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I'm totaly agree with that, a guy from my group create the "Armageddon " mod for Muliplayer contest, he spent much 1000 hours to make the script work well for the tornado and other stuff, depending of optimisation for other player, he got 224 supporter, he was promoted, is mod was downloaded more than 40 000 time and he don't have a place for the final?

I have to jump in here and remind you that there was two of us working on Armageddon! Still, your words of support here mean a great deal to me (and super-truite as well, I'm sure). Thank you! And, yes, the mod required overcoming numerous technical challenges on both our parts and it was very gratifying to see the enthusiastic reception from the player community upon release.

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I have to jump in here and remind you that there was two of us working on Armageddon! Still, your words of support here mean a great deal to me (and super-truite as well, I'm sure). Thank you! And, yes, the mod required overcoming numerous technical challenges on both our parts and it was very gratifying to see the enthusiastic reception from the player community upon release.

Yup sorry for the mistake ^^ I usualy see mostly @super truite than you, so sorry for that !

I still hope that Bi's will explain there choise !

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Yes I think it is strange that some categories has been voted by only few people from BIS, and no the community? What was the interest to place some sort of vote so??

I'm maybe stupid... :j:

One category (Singleplayer Game Mode) was voted on by the community, the other three categories (Multiplayer Game Mode, Addon, Total Modification) were by BI.

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While I can partly agree with the OP, one should not forget that making a mod usually is not "just a few weekends of work". Creating quality content in the spare time without having lots of money involved is actually a lot and hard work. Most ideas always sound simple on paper, but as soon as you actually try to get them into the game... well, you *will* have to face problems and usually a great deal of your available time will be spend on testing and fixing bugs instead of adding more awesome content. Especially if you are not a professional- and as far as I can see, most participants of the MANW contest are not professionals (which is kind of the point of the contest? To get new people on board and try to transform active modders into more professional modders who deliver better / quality content?).

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Creating quality content in the spare time without having lots of money involved is actually a lot and hard work.

With the money would be the same, just you'll pay the others to do the hard work for you. Agreed in total.

BTW I for the instance was able to provide my entry as not-so-wip well before deadline only because I, unlike the most others, had lots of free time to accomplish that, so 5-6 months was enough. I could spent whole days on it, and often I did. Still, project still has the room for further development, that is ongoing post-MANW.

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