Dozens die in chechen battle

[Mister Frag 0]

Note: There was a similar event a few weeks ago where one of two Hinds escorting an Mi-17 was shot down.

From http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/26/chechnya.attack/index.html

Dozens die in Chechen battle

MOSCOW, Russia --At least seven Russians and 70 Chechen rebels died in a fierce gun battle in southern Russia after rebels shot down a Russian helicopter gunship, killing its two-man crew.

Fierce fighting erupted between a large group of Chechen rebels and security forces around a village in Russia's Ingushetia region -- just across the border from Chechnya -- after a rebel missile brought down the Mi-24 military craft.

Russian forces found the body of a man carrying a video camera, cassettes and a British passport among the dead rebels, the Kremlin information office said, citing Russian security forces.

The name in the passport was Roderick John Scott and his birth year was given as 1973. The passport had a Georgian visa, which was issued in June and expired on September 15.

The new clash came against a background of angry charges by Russian President Vladimir Putin that its former Soviet ally Georgia is allowing its territory to be used as a launch-pad for rebel cross-border operations into Chechnya.

The outbreak of fighting in Ingushetia indicates a widening of the battleground of the Chechen war.

The helicopter crashed in the village of Galashki during combat between a group of rebel fighters and Russian troops, Col. Boris Podoprigora, deputy commander of Russian forces in the North Caucasus region, told The Associated Press.

As well as those killed 15 Russian soldiers were wounded in fighting in the region of Galashki over the past 24 hours, an official in the headquarters of the Russian 58th army, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told AP.

Although at least 70 rebels were said to have been killed, Russian news media and military officials routinely inflate Chechen casualty figures.

Britain's Foreign Office was awaiting formal identification of the body carrying the British passport. In London, Frontline Television News confirmed that a freelance cameraman who had provided them with footage for about six years had been in Georgia for about two months. The cameraman went by the name Roddy Scott, and the name in his passport was Gervase Scott, Frontline said.

"Obviously, it is a matter of grave concern that a British citizen has been killed," British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said, speaking in London.

Arabs, a Turk and a Georgian national were also found among the dead fighters, the Interfax news agency reported, citing an unnamed source in the Ingush security service. The ITAR-Tass news agency said none of the dead rebels had Russian identity papers.

Interfax, quoting military and police sources, said the helicopter was brought down about 80 a.m. (0400 GMT) by a shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile. The helicopter crashed, killing two crew members.

ORT state television reported that the helicopter killed a woman on the ground. The rebels shot at another helicopter but it was not damaged, Madina Khadziyeva, a spokeswoman for the Interior Ministry in Ingushetia, told AP.

Podoprigora said the fighters numbered 150 and had entered Galashki in the early morning.

The Kremlin information office put the number at 100-150. It said the fighters had originated in Georgia's Pankisi Gorge, near Chechnya, and crossed the border in small groups of 15-20 with a Georgian and an Ingush guide to elude border guards' attention.

One group, which crossed into the neighbouring Russian region of North Ossetia, was destroyed before the rebels joined forces and fighting around Galashki began, the office said.

Russia says Chechen rebels are using Georgia's Pankisi Gorge as a staging ground for attacks in Russia and Russian officials have threatened to launch military operations on Georgian territory. They say the month-old Georgian police campaign to root out militants from the gorge has been ineffectual.

The Chechens are no longer able to mount large-scale offensives against Russia forces, and downing helicopters has become a key tactic in their efforts to inflict damage on the Russians.

In August, a huge Mi-26 transport helicopter was shot down on its way to military headquarters in Khankala, Chechnya, killing at least 119 Russian servicemen in the worst military aviation catastrophe in Russian history.

[Benze 0]

Flying tank it isn't.

[Snoopy 0]

so much wars everywhere

i know probally the chechens are looking for independance from russia, or I think they are. But from where i heard they had videos of chechens decapitating russian POWs with a butter knife.

i am unclear of the real situation, someone tell me.

[Benze 0]

You can download that video. The chechan militiants are barbaric ****s who in every way fit my definition of "terrorist".

Who knows, I maybe would even support Russia if I was pres...

[Satchel 0]

"War is not nice"

Barbera Bush.

[Tovarish 0]

What I'm wondering is where the hell the Rebels are getting all these AA missiles. Surely they aren't captured from the Russians, they have no reason to bring AA missiles into Chechnya

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Sep. 26 2002,14:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I'm wondering is where the hell the Rebels are getting all these AA missiles. Surely they aren't captured from the Russians, they have no reason to bring AA missiles into Chechnya<span id='postcolor'>

They could easily be buying them from unscrupulous arms dealers in Russia or another former Soviet republic willing to sell to the highest bidder. The Mi-26 was shot down with an IGLA missle, which was designed and made in Russia.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Sep. 26 2002,23:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They could easily be buying them from unscrupulous arms dealers in Russia or another former Soviet republic willing to sell to the highest bidder. The Mi-26 was shot down with an IGLA missle, which was designed and made in Russia.<span id='postcolor'>

True, it probably is a former Soviet republic, or even the Russian black market itself, although I doubt the Russian mafia would be selling weapons to these people....But also remember that such Russian designed weapons are used and often manufactured by many other countries (China, Pakistan, ect.) The possibilities are nearly endless....especially considering that during the Soviet Afghan war the CIA provided the mujahedin with AK-47's bought from South American weapon dealers (No I'm not trying to say the US is supplying the missiles, just that such unlikely weapons transactions have happened)

[KingBeast 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Benze @ Sep. 26 2002,22:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can download that video. The chechan militiants are barbaric ****s who in every way fit my definition of "terrorist".

Who knows, I maybe would even support Russia if I was pres...<span id='postcolor'>

The Russians do exactly the same thing to the chechens when they catch them, it is definately not one sided like you seem to imply.

Conscript armies often have very little discipline, and when you dont have to worry about being courtmartialled when taking out revenge on your enemy for being responsible for the deaths of your friends, things happen that really shouldnt happen.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Sep. 26 2002,23:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Benze @ Sep. 26 2002,22:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can download that video. The chechan militiants are barbaric ****s who in every way fit my definition of "terrorist".

Who knows, I maybe would even support Russia if I was pres...<span id='postcolor'>

The Russians do exactly the same thing to the chechens when they catch them, it is definately not one sided like you seem to imply.

Conscript armies often have very little discipline, and when you dont have to worry about being courtmartialled when taking out revenge on your enemy for being responsible for the deaths of your friends, things happen that really shouldnt happen.<span id='postcolor'>

This is sad, but realistically this sort of thing happens on both sides of nearly every war in recorded history.

[Mister Frag 0]

Actually, the Russian Mafia has close ties to the Chechens. They like to use them as enforcers due to their reputation for violence.

Try searching for "Russian Mafia", and "Chechens" or "Chechnia" will invariably be mentioned in many of the articles.

[KingBeast 0]

It does indeed, though the thing about long drawn out bitter conflicts such as checnya and russia is that little or no disciplinary action is taken out upon those people that commit such acts.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

It is a sad thing, but between the two sides I would have to go for Russia.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Sep. 26 2002,18:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is a sad thing, but between the two sides I would have to go for Russia.<span id='postcolor'>

Yea, you always choose the larger, more powerful side. Also the side that is more financially viable.

[Antichrist 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Sep. 26 2002,23:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Sep. 26 2002,23:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They could easily be buying them from unscrupulous arms dealers in Russia or another former Soviet republic willing to sell to the highest bidder. The Mi-26 was shot down with an IGLA missle, which was designed and made in Russia.<span id='postcolor'>

True, it probably is a former Soviet republic, or even the Russian black market itself, although I doubt the Russian mafia would be selling weapons to these people....But also remember that such Russian designed weapons are used and often manufactured by many other countries (China, Pakistan, ect.) The possibilities are nearly endless....especially considering that during the Soviet Afghan war the CIA provided the mujahedin with AK-47's bought from South American weapon dealers (No I'm not trying to say the US is supplying the missiles, just that such unlikely weapons transactions have happened)<span id='postcolor'>

Some of you people have no idea what's going on! Russian government itself is selling those weapons to the rebels, so they can prolong the war, so they in turn can sell more weapons and get more money.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ Sep. 27 2002,02:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some of you people have no idea what's going on! Russian government itself is selling those weapons to the rebels, so they can prolong the war, so they in turn can sell more weapons and get more money.  <span id='postcolor'>

What's that I hear? Why it's a completely unsubstantiated crackpot conspiracy theory!

I don't suppose you have the receipts, or any sort of proof... do you?

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ Sep. 26 2002,17:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Sep. 26 2002,23:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Sep. 26 2002,23:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They could easily be buying them from unscrupulous arms dealers in Russia or another former Soviet republic willing to sell to the highest bidder. The Mi-26 was shot down with an IGLA missle, which was designed and made in Russia.<span id='postcolor'>

True, it probably is a former Soviet republic, or even the Russian black market itself, although I doubt the Russian mafia would be selling weapons to these people....But also remember that such Russian designed weapons are used and often manufactured by many other countries (China, Pakistan, ect.) The possibilities are nearly endless....especially considering that during the Soviet Afghan war the CIA provided the mujahedin with AK-47's bought from South American weapon dealers (No I'm not trying to say the US is supplying the missiles, just that such unlikely weapons transactions have happened)<span id='postcolor'>

Some of you people have no idea what's going on! Russian government itself is selling those weapons to the rebels, so they can prolong the war, so they in turn can sell more weapons and get more money.  <span id='postcolor'>

They are spending more money fighting the Chechens than they could possibly be making by selling them arms through clandestine channels.

Not to mention that they are loosing hundreds of sons and the political support of all of their parents.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Yeah. Diabolical government schemes aren't supposed to be self-defeating.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Sep. 27 2002,03:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some of you people have no idea what's going on! Russian government itself is selling those weapons to the rebels, so they can prolong the war, so they in turn can sell more weapons and get more money.  <span id='postcolor'>

Replace 'Russian Government' with 'Unscrupulous elements within the Russian Government' and I think you might hit a lot closer to the mark.  I dont for a moment believe that prolonging the conflict in Chechnya is a goal of the mainstream Russian government.  But I dont doubt for a moment that there arent people profiteering from the situation, who would rather see it going on than it coming to an end.  After all, if you're being paid by the government to run a weapons depot, and you funnel off 'losses' to people paying hard currency, you're playing both sides of the fence.

Then again, who knows when the Russian security services will catch up to you.  After all, I am sure discarded launce assemblies for disposable AA missiles have some sort of identifiers.  Then you'd be in a world of trouble.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Another war thats going to drag on and on.......

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Chechnya is the sucking chest wound that is going to keep Russia out of the 21st century at least until everyone has moved onto the 22nd century. Right or wrong, Russia should cut their losses and let them fight each other (When mujahadeen aren't fighting infidels, they are fighting each other)- you think they could have learned that from Vietnam and Afghanistan.

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Sep. 26 2002,18:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah. Diabolical government schemes aren't supposed to be self-defeating.<span id='postcolor'>

I wonder how many man-portable AA missiles the Russians would have to sell the Chechens to recoup the loss of a single Mi-17, Mi-24, or Mi-26.

Just off the top of my head, I'd have to say 'many'...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

A Hind costs roughly $800,000+ dollars

The two man crew is of course, priceless.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The two man crew is of course, priceless<span id='postcolor'>

Sadly Tex, in the military the crew do have a price tag. It's needed so planners can rationalise planning.

For example, fast jet pilots in the RAF cost roughly Å3 million each to train.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Sep. 27 2002,13:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The two man crew is of course, priceless<span id='postcolor'>

Sadly Tex, in the military the crew do have a price tag. It's needed so planners can rationalise planning.

For example, fast jet pilots in the RAF cost roughly Å3 million each to train.<span id='postcolor'>

That is true most of the time, but as Russia can barely pay the officers and men they have, I don't see them having an influx of the best and the brightest for their officer corps and career NCOs. Sure they can conscript troops for a year or two, but what then? So, imo, Russia above all other countries, should treat it's combat troops (especially the good ones) like they were priceless.