A request for an f-22 raptor

[MHSJROTTCADET 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eviscerator @ Sep. 28 2002,19:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(not comparing countrys but...)

you shouldnt put so much of your trust in stealth, F117's were picked up by british ships all the way to baghdad in the gulf war, stealth is only good if you are going against technologically inferior nations as stealth is never 100% invisible to radar<span id='postcolor'>

uh... that's because the F-117's had IFF on untill over Iraq, that way they would not be shot at by friendly forces.

[Eviscerator 0]

no this was without using the friendly fire systems

[Badgerboy 0]

Stealth does not make you invisible, all stealth A/C can be picked up on modern radar. It just reduces the RCS (Radar Cross Section) of the aircraft, preventing a lock. You know the buggers are there, but you can't lock the buggers up! The F117 appears as the same size as a bird on radar scopes, and therefore is filtered out by the radar systems in most cases.

Besides, it could all be a waste of money. New systems are coming online that can detect stealth aircraft using mobile phone technology. And any tinpot dictator can get his hands on that sort of equipment.

I'll try and dig out the New Scientist feature on it.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sadico @ Sep. 28 2002,18:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RaptorAce @ Sep. 28 2002,17:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1st, No.  No US planes were lost to enemy planes during all of Desert Shield and Desert Storm

2nd, the Su-37 is only used for show and hasnt (and as far as i know wont) be put into production.  The Flanker more likely to go into production will be the Su-33 or Su-35 which doesnt have TV, plus with the F-22's advanced systems and stealth, it would probably kill the flanker if they were in a fight simply because it'd get into range before the flanker would see it.  And yeah, that cobra maneuver is cool, but not really useful in a dogfight

This was a reply to Sadico.<span id='postcolor'>

Funny, i had read years ago that a F/A-18 was shot down by a Mig-25, but now i can't find any confirmation. Looks like it wasn't true.

The Su-37 and Su-35 are not currently in production, and i'm sure they won't be in service with the Russian Air Force anytime soon (maybe never), but they have been offered for export. There is a Su-30 variant with 3d vectoring engines too, and i think it has been already sold to India. China bought Su-27's some years ago and is interested in buying the new variants. You are right though, the F-22 should be able to destroy the Sukhoi from long range, but we don't really know how stealthy it is. That cobra maneuver is only an example of the maneuvers that can be done with that aircraft, in a dogfight the 37 would out-turn the F-22 quite easily, and if you combine that with a reaward facing radar, a helmet mounted sight and the AA-11 missiles you have possibly the best dogfighter in the world.<span id='postcolor'>

Just curious but how do you know the Su-27 would outturn a F22? I keep hearing people say this, but how does anyone know? The F-22 has a huge wing area and thrust vectoring exhaust nozzles, something the Su-27 does not. The F-22 also has incredible thrust to weight ratio. More then likely it's capable of any of the same manuevers that a Su-27 could do. But the again I don't know for sure either. My point is that nobody knows unless you got access to the flight data from the F22.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Badgerboy 0]

The Su27 can out maneouvre the F22 in some aspects.

The Cobra is a good example. However the Cobra is only good for airshows, in a ACM environment losing airspeed like that invites a seeker up the tail.

[Sadico 1]

The Su-27 most likely can't out-turn a F-22, but i wasn't talking about the 27, i was talking about the Su-37. Take a look at this page:

http://wmilitary.neurok.ru/su37/su37display.html

There is only one aircraft in the world that can do that maneuvers, the Su-37. Lot's of parts of the F-22 project are classified, but experts can tell more or less accurately the performance of the aircraft without having access to that data. The only aircraft that can compare to the Su-37 is the X-31 prototype.

[Miles 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles Teg @ Sep. 28 2002,21:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sadico @ Sep. 28 2002,188)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RaptorAce @ Sep. 28 2002,17:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1st, No.  No US planes were lost to enemy planes during all of Desert Shield and Desert Storm

2nd, the Su-37 is only used for show and hasnt (and as far as i know wont) be put into production.  The Flanker more likely to go into production will be the Su-33 or Su-35 which doesnt have TV, plus with the F-22's advanced systems and stealth, it would probably kill the flanker if they were in a fight simply because it'd get into range before the flanker would see it.  And yeah, that cobra maneuver is cool, but not really useful in a dogfight

This was a reply to Sadico.<span id='postcolor'>

Funny, i had read years ago that a F/A-18 was shot down by a Mig-25, but now i can't find any confirmation. Looks like it wasn't true.

The Su-37 and Su-35 are not currently in production, and i'm sure they won't be in service with the Russian Air Force anytime soon (maybe never), but they have been offered for export. There is a Su-30 variant with 3d vectoring engines too, and i think it has been already sold to India. China bought Su-27's some years ago and is interested in buying the new variants. You are right though, the F-22 should be able to destroy the Sukhoi from long range, but we don't really know how stealthy it is. That cobra maneuver is only an example of the maneuvers that can be done with that aircraft, in a dogfight the 37 would out-turn the F-22 quite easily, and if you combine that with a reaward facing radar, a helmet mounted sight and the AA-11 missiles you have possibly the best dogfighter in the world.<span id='postcolor'>

Just curious but how do you know the Su-27 would outturn a F22?   I keep hearing people say this, but how does anyone know?   The F-22 has a huge wing area and thrust vectoring exhaust nozzles, something the Su-27 does not.  The F-22 also has incredible thrust to weight ratio.   More then likely it's capable of any of the same manuevers that a Su-27 could do.  But the again I don't know for sure either.  My point is that nobody knows unless you got access to the flight data from the F22.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD><span id='postcolor'>

The f22 has slower engines (~mach 1.7) however it can sustain this for huge periods because they cruise at that speed without afterburners. The su27 probably has the normal mach 2 top speed with afterburner, but it cant sustain it.

[Ionerion 0]

I started working on an F-22 model before I ever knew about this topic. The cockpit of the F-22 is not very good. I'll have to try and fix it. (This is my first model I ever made) I don't think it will be released until I find out what are "blocks" and a little more about "proxy". Some pics down below.

[Intruder 0]

Very nice, I take it super cruise won't be an option in OFP

[MrMilli 0]

A Cessna can outrun a F22

I mean, how fast can an F22 go on the ground

At least Eurofighter is being delivered to the RAF now.

[Intruder 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MrMilli @ Sep. 29 2002,11:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At least Eurofighter is being delivered to the RAF now.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah after much problems and overspending

[RaptorAce 0]

wow, that looks nice, cant wait til its released!

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Sep. 28 2002,21:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Su27 can out maneouvre the F22 in some aspects.

The Cobra is a good example. However the Cobra is only good for airshows, in a ACM environment losing airspeed like that invites a seeker up the tail.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh, ok, but have you ever seen a F22 put through it's paces or are you just basing your information from playing flight simulators?

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles @ Sep. 28 2002,21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The f22 has slower engines (~mach 1.7) however it can sustain this for huge periods because they cruise at that speed without afterburners.  The su27 probably has the normal mach 2 top speed with afterburner, but it cant sustain it.<span id='postcolor'>

The speed does not matter as much when it comes to maneuverability. One of the main factors is thrust to weight ratio along with the amount of lift it's wings and control surfaces generate and the ability of the aircraft to handle at extremely slow speeds. At high speeds other factors come into play such as the design of the pilot's seat, his flight suit bladders for controlling blood flow, and the endurance of the pilot concerning how many "G's" the pilot can withstand before blacking (or reding) out. However in this modern age, speed is only useful for getting to a target quickly and getting out of a hostile area quickly. At low speeds, state of the art fire control systems and missiles can destroy most enemy aircraft even if the aircraft from which the weapons are fired is flying very slow. It often boils down to how effective the ECM systems are on an aircraft, how maneuverable an aircraft is, and how well a pilot is able to effectively use counter-measures along with evasive action against enemy missiles and cannon fire.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sadico @ Sep. 28 2002,21:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Su-27 most likely can't out-turn a F-22, but i wasn't talking about the 27, i was talking about the Su-37. Take a look at this page:

http://wmilitary.neurok.ru/su37/su37display.html

There is only one aircraft in the world that can do that maneuvers, the Su-37. Lot's of parts of the F-22 project are classified, but experts can tell more or less accurately the performance of the aircraft without having access to that data. The only aircraft that can compare to the Su-37 is the X-31 prototype.<span id='postcolor'>

Possibly.  But again NONE OF US KNOW.   Without any flight data you are merely speculating so it's useless to say "my country's airplane is better then yours" based on nothing but speculation.  

The Su-37 and the F-22 both have thrust vectoring engines while the Su-37 has front wing canards which may give it a slight edge in maneuverability (or maybe not).  However nobody has ever seen a F22 do any complex maneuvers nor does anyone have access to data on the flight characteristics of the F22 other then speed and thrust to weight ratios.  Maybe with that data you can work out use some fancy aeronautical flight testing software to simulate the flight characteristics of the F22 but to my knowledge nobody has done this.  If your "experts" have done this, please educate me and point me to some URL's where these experts have gone into detail concerning their simulated flight models of the F22 (if they even bothered to create any that is).

So my point is that it's a stupid arguement unless you have more evidence.  

They're both cool and extremely capable aircraft and both are most likely highly maneuverable but it's impossible to say one is better then the other without having more information on them.  Otherwise it's just pointless to continue to say that the F22 is inferior to anything unless the point of your arguement is just to piss people off by arguing a point that can not be won logically without information to back up that arguement.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However in this modern age, speed is only useful for getting to a target quickly and getting out of a hostile area quickly<span id='postcolor'>

As part of my training with the RAF, I can confirm that if you get into a dogfight, you have officially fucked up. The reason we pack shiny BVR missiles to engage the enemy at standoff range, and if necessary, turn and leg it.

Modern dogfights usually last 30secs tops, and a good pilot can manoever a jet into a snapshot situation easily if the enemy puts his foot wrong in his tech filled jet.

ACM is a fundamental basic, but the chances of getting into such a situation are small, espeically with the new BVR's coming into action soon.

(Meteor - Joint Euro project. Solid ramjet propelled. Estimated 60nm range.)

When the US designed the F22 it was with a blank cheque book. Looking at it with hindsight, it does not need its amazing dogfighting ability, let alone thrust vectoring. The F22 is perfectly capable of reaching out and touching someone with a slammer without them realising they are being engaged. If the design had been modified to take into account chnages in the last few decades, they could have saved a shitload of cash, and bought a few more jets.

As it stands, the F22 is a nice jet, but grossly overpriced, and over equipped, purely because it has been in development so long. The USAF wanted a silver bullet.... they got one, but at what cost!

Do you know how much these things cost per unit? Its the equivelent of 3 and a 1/2 Typhoons! Thats fault with the Typhoon as well though. When it was conceived, it was designed to combat a baseline Su27 with thrust vectoring. (This was many years ago- It's taken bloody ages to get into service. They haven't even setup a OCU yet!. The original Eurofighter called for a thrust vector system, but it was phased out due to the ever changing environment. It was decided to stick with a high thrust to weight performance jet, without thrust vectoring. (Its still bloody maneoverable though! Just not as good).

My belief is that the F22 should have left out the vectoring system, and aimed to cut down costs, as it is still effectively a cold war jet. That would allow the purchase of more aircraft. (Look how much the order for F22's has dropped since its conception!

[RaptorAce 0]

i dont like BVR, I'm sure if i was a pilot, i'd love to have missles that can go that far, but i envy the pilots who got to get up close just to get a shot off in the World Wars and Korean War.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

I think that you may all be getting the Su-37 mixed up with the S-37

S-37 Berkut

The Su-37 is an advancement of the Su-27 with features such as fly-by wire controls, and thrust vector controls. Su-37

The S-37, while made by Sukhoi, is a entirly diffrent aircraft.

I might be wrong, and you might all be actualy talking about the Su-37.

Regardless, this is going off-topic so I suggest this thread is banged in the OT Forums

[Sadico 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Without any flight data you are merely speculating so it's useless to say "my country's airplane is better then yours" based on nothing but speculation.  

<span id='postcolor'>

Well, none of that aircraft has been designed in my country, so i'm completely objective about this  

If you want, you can search for reports of the Su-37's performance in the Farnborough air show. Lot's of recognized experts (including aircraft designers, NATO fighter pilots, etc) wrote reports about it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However nobody has ever seen a F22 do any complex maneuvers nor does anyone have access to data on the flight characteristics of the F22 other then speed and thrust to weight ratios. <span id='postcolor'>

Then using your own reasoning, i could say that the F-22 is be unable to do any complex maneuvers because i haven't seen it perform any. We have seen the Su-37 performing that impressive maneuvers that even aircraft designed specificaly to be ultra-maneuverable (X-29 FSW, X-31 with 3d thrust vectoring) can't do. The F-22 has been designed to be very maneuverable, but stealth is more important in the design than maneuverability. The X-31 would most likely kick it's ass in a dogfight. This is from the NASA Dryden Flight Research Center:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The X-31's flight-control system also went through five major software changes during its years at Dryden, but with the changes and modifications, the program became extremely successful. In addition to simply achieving controllable maneuvering flight at angles of attack up to 70 degrees, the aircraft clearly demonstrated the tactical advantage thrust-vectoring could give a fighter. Simulator experiments predicted that the X-31 would have a 3:1 kill ratio. In actual combat maneuvers against an F-18 fighter, however, the X-31 won approximately 30 dogfight engagements for every one it lost. It also demonstrated maneuvers no other aircraft was able to do, including one named after program originator Wolfgang Herbst. The "Herbst maneuver" is a rapid, 180-degree turn at an extremely high angle of attack, using the X-31's post-stall maneuverability characteristics.

<span id='postcolor'>

The X-31 is a smallish aircraft, with very little wing surface, but thrust vectoring enabled it to have a 30:1 success rate against the F/A-18. The Su-37 is a big fighter (over 30 tons), like the F-22. They both have huge wing surface, fly-by-wire controls, and extremely powerful engines. But the F-22 has been designed for stealth over maneuverability, and the sukhoi has been designed to be a world beater in dogfights.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think that you may all be getting the Su-37 mixed up with the S-37<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, i know they are different aircraft. It would be interesting to see a S-37 with the Su-37's thrust vectoring engines, though. Forward swept wings and powerful 3d thrust vectoring engines combined in an aircraft with advanced fly-by-wire, the results could be impressive!

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sadico @ Sep. 30 2002,11:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Without any flight data you are merely speculating so it's useless to say "my country's airplane is better then yours" based on nothing but speculation.  

<span id='postcolor'>

Well, none of that aircraft has been designed in my country, so i'm completely objective about this  

If you want, you can search for reports of the Su-37's performance in the Farnborough air show. Lot's of recognized experts (including aircraft designers, NATO fighter pilots, etc) wrote reports about it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However nobody has ever seen a F22 do any complex maneuvers nor does anyone have access to data on the flight characteristics of the F22 other then speed and thrust to weight ratios. <span id='postcolor'>

Then using your own reasoning, i could say that the F-22 is be unable to do any complex maneuvers because i haven't seen it perform any. We have seen the Su-37 performing that impressive maneuvers that even aircraft designed specificaly to be ultra-maneuverable (X-29 FSW, X-31 with 3d thrust vectoring) can't do. The F-22 has been designed to be very maneuverable, but stealth is more important in the design than maneuverability. The X-31 would most likely kick it's ass in a dogfight. This is from the NASA Dryden Flight Research Center:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The X-31's flight-control system also went through five major software changes during its years at Dryden, but with the changes and modifications, the program became extremely successful. In addition to simply achieving controllable maneuvering flight at angles of attack up to 70 degrees, the aircraft clearly demonstrated the tactical advantage thrust-vectoring could give a fighter. Simulator experiments predicted that the X-31 would have a 3:1 kill ratio. In actual combat maneuvers against an F-18 fighter, however, the X-31 won approximately 30 dogfight engagements for every one it lost. It also demonstrated maneuvers no other aircraft was able to do, including one named after program originator Wolfgang Herbst. The "Herbst maneuver" is a rapid, 180-degree turn at an extremely high angle of attack, using the X-31's post-stall maneuverability characteristics.

<span id='postcolor'>

The X-31 is a smallish aircraft, with very little wing surface, but thrust vectoring enabled it to have a 30:1 success rate against the F/A-18. The Su-37 is a big fighter (over 30 tons), like the F-22. They both have huge wing surface, fly-by-wire controls, and extremely powerful engines. But the F-22 has been designed for stealth over maneuverability, and the sukhoi has been designed to be a world beater in dogfights.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think that you may all be getting the Su-37 mixed up with the S-37<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, i know they are different aircraft. It would be interesting to see a S-37 with the Su-37's thrust vectoring engines, though. Forward swept wings and powerful 3d thrust vectoring engines combined in an aircraft with advanced fly-by-wire, the results could be impressive!<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not arguing about the data available on the SU-37.  There's tons of that because the Russians are trying to sell them to other countries and are pushing them really hard.

The F-22 is another matter.  

Interesting logic you have that by the absense of data you can come to the conclusion that the F22 is inferior without any data supporting your conclusion that the stealth characteristics of the F-22 negatively effect the aircraft's maneuverability.  Maybe it does maybe it doesn't.  But to represent speculation as fact is what I think is stupid.

The only fact is that nobody, outside U.S. government agencies and military, knows what the F22's flight characteristics are, and unless you are a aeronautical engineer, I doubt that anyone on this board has the expertise to make such conclusions that the F-22 is in fact inferior in maneuverability (or other characteristics) then any other modern fighter aircraft.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i dont like BVR, I'm sure if i was a pilot, i'd love to have missles that can go that far, but i envy the pilots who got to get up close just to get a shot off in the World Wars and Korean War<span id='postcolor'>

Alas, if you try that sort of thing these days, oyu'll soon be heading toward the ground a high rate of knots.

[RaptorAce 0]

i don't know about that, i think there have been dogfights in israeli wars and desert storm that used guns to shoot down an aircraft.  BTW any new pics of that F-22, Ionerion?

[dudealus 0]

why does everybody here think stealth is really fantastic.during desert storm 2 f117 were shot down, only the us gevorment didn't admit it. It just takes well trained radar operators to spot them and fire a missile on them

[RaptorAce 0]

who told you that two F-117's were shot down? there's only been one shot down and that was in Bosnia, anyways, stealth is a great feature but won't guarantee victory in a battle.

oh yeah, a well trained radar operator? you need a really good radar and one that won't filter things out that are to small

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (dudealus @ Sep. 30 2002,00:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">why does everybody here think stealth is really fantastic.during desert storm 2 f117 were shot down, only the us gevorment didn't admit it. It just takes well trained radar operators to spot them and fire a missile on them<span id='postcolor'>

Since the official records say none were lost, what is your source for that little revelation?