France General

[gliptal 25]

Tell me if I'm being obnoxious with all this posting, but I feel like talking.

The same CNN source says that there were two armed men in the supermarket, and that one fled with the hostages. The woman was not in the area.

Yay!

[ProfTournesol 956]

Tell me if I'm being obnoxious with all this posting

Nope, you aren't :)

[Sooke 13]

Both David Cameron and Matteo Renzi will join the Unity Rally in Paris on Sunday.

Also a third hostage crisis in going on in Montpellier, it seems completely unrelated with the Paris attacks and terrorism.

But that's what was told yesterday with the murder of the policewoman so...

Tough times for France :(

---------- Post added at 19:24 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------

BFMTV had phonecalls with one of the Kouachi brother, Cherif, this morning and Coulibaly this afternoon.

The Kouachi brother claimed to be from Al-Qaeda Yemen while Coulibali told the reporter he was on a mission for IS/Daech.

He also told he had contact with the Kouachi brothers to decide when to start their "operation". "For them Charlie Hebdo, for me the police" he said.

It seems he didn't hang up the phone correctly which then allowed the police to listen to what was happening in the kocher market.

When they heard him starting his "death prayer" they've launched the assault.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Sooke

[mistyronin 1181]

Next Charlie Hebdo cover:

"Urgently, we are looking for 6 cartoonist"

[orcinus 121]

The BBC has videos of the assults plus pictures of two people they are looking for wrt the murder of the policewoman:

"On Friday, French police issued an appeal for witnesses to that shooting. They said they were looking for Amedy Coulibaly, as well as a woman called Hayat Boumeddiene, 26."

According to the Beeb Live update at 18:45 GMT, "BFMTV news channel is broadcasting a telephone interview with a man who they identified as the supermarket gunman, named as Amedy Coulibaly. In the interview, he says he had been coordinating his attack with the Charlie Hebdo suspects and that he was from the Islamic State militant group active in Syria and Iraq. But he also said he had been sent and financed by al-Qaeda in Yemen, another militant group which is not believed to have had overt ties with Islamic State."

If Coulibaby is one of the dead, the world is a better place (never did agree with John Donne).

So sad that so many innocent people and police are dying because of these socipoathic scumbags of greasy pig dung.

Je suis Charlie.

[mistyronin 1181]

Also from the Guardian:

Hollande confirms that four people were killed in the siege in the Vincennes supermarket. It is unclear if this number includes the hostage-taker.

[Sooke 13]

As far as I know from the french media, no, this number doesn't include the hostage taker.

5 people died in Paris, 3 confirmed hostages, the assaulter and one unknown man.

Hostages have reported another man joining Coulibaly after he stormed the store, it's still unclear if he fled or if he is the 4th casualty

(...)But he also said he had been sent and financed by al-Qaeda in Yemen, another militant group which is not believed to have had overt ties with Islamic State."

From what I understand this is incorrect, the Kouachi brothers claimed they were sent and financed by AQ Yemen, Coulibaly claimed to be send by IS.

Al Qaeda and IS are "competitors", they do not work together...usually

Edited January 9, 2015 by Sooke

[ProfTournesol 956]

N8YVAm3SrJ8

[ScratcH334 10]

Some "friend" of mine on facebook has liked a post from "Killuminati" (german conspiracy page) where they say that this whole terrorist attack was staged and planned by the goverment and the 2 brothers were already killed beforehand, the attack on the journalist office was done by "elite" police/military forces... and why there was no blood when the injured police officer got executed on the street... I had to facepalm so damn hard FPDRFPDRFPDRFPDR

Not to mention all those comments like "this was all done by some elite american soldiers" or "zionists control the media and they want to put a bad light on Islam in order to gain world domination"

https://de-de.facebook.com/Killuminati.for.Wakeup

[vilas 477]

Some "friend" of mine on facebook has liked a post from "Killuminati" (german conspiracy page) where they say that this whole terrorist attack was staged and planned by the goverment and the 2 brothers were already killed beforehand, the attack on the journalist office was done by "elite" police/military forces... and why there was no blood when the injured police officer got executed on the street... I had to facepalm so damn hard FPDRFPDRFPDRFPDR

Not to mention all those comments like "this was all done by some elite american soldiers" or "zionists control the media and they want to put a bad light on Islam in order to gain world domination"

https://de-de.facebook.com/Killuminati.for.Wakeup

do you think ISIS is not hiring trolls ? Jihad is not only with AK - todays world war is also CYBER war and has cyber warriors

[ScratcH334 10]

do you think ISIS is not hiring trolls ? Jihad is not only with AK - todays world war is also CYBER war and has cyber warriors

Of course they do but I sincerely doubt that all those facebook users are hired trolls. It's really sad to see that so many people fall for such BS that everything was planned by the US or some zionists

[Maio 293]

This is a touchy subject, so let's focus on posting news and avoid delving into sociopolitical debates.

I'm aware that sociopolitical factors are at the core of the problem, but these events are still fresh and they need to be looked at as objective as possible.

Generalization of an entire faith group based on the actions of some (yes, even a sovereign state) is not wise.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Maio

[beastcat 14]

@vilas

I note you studiously failed to answer my question even though you quoted it.

Here are a few more for you - increasingly doubtless - to ignore/avoid:

Care to tell us how many Muslim friends you have? How many Muslim acquaintances you have? How many Muslims you've actually had a substantial conversation with on any topic?

Where in Europe has anyone been beheaded for being gay? Details please.

Where in Europe has anyone been stoned to death for sunbathing? Details please.

Where in Europe has the Santa Claus nonsense been banned? Details please.

Where in Europe has anyone been condemned to death/killed because of apostasy (at least, since the various Christian churches were deprived of secular powers - which they DID use)? Details please.

Etc., etc.

Re gay people, look at the legislation of so-called "Christian" countries in Africa, the Caribbean, or Putin's midden of a Mafia state.

WTF does the pathology of the abysmally ill-educated masses in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan have necessarily to do with Europe?

Europe is not an islamic country, of course there won't be such extremism like in some other countries, but there is still a growing number of people who want these things implemented.

And why does one need muslim friends to be able to judge what others did? The talk is not about peaceful muslims in general, but Islamists and this kind of radicalism can only be found with Islam these days and I highly doubt anyone here has radical islamists as friends.

This whole "Oh, well not all muslims are like this" or "You don't know any muslims, so don't judge" argumentation doesn't bring anything forward. They can pray to Allah, Jesus, Jehova, Trees, Stones, golden lambs as much as they want, nobody cares as long as they don't do any harm, but when even Merkel feels the need to say that this has nothing to do with Islam there is definitely a problem. It shows that people are afraid of offending some religion, because it has everything to do with Islam. It has been done in the name of Islam and it doesn't matter if the majority of Muslims in Europe are peaceful, because it doesn't change the fact that these things happen.

There has to bee free speech and self censorship is not the answer. We have to be able to say "Fuck Islam" just like we can say "Fuck Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism and every other sect" without having to fear for your life.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the post above me :D But hey, go free speech!

[mistyronin 1181]

[Sooke 13]

"Even Hezbollah says muslims should worry more about ISIS than cartoons"

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/9/7520689/hezbollah-charlie-hebdo

its leader Hassan Nasrallah did something interesting on Friday: he declared that the Charlie Hebdo attackers were more offensive to Islam than the cartoons that prompted their killing spree.

"Iran's Rouhani condemns killing in name of Islam"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-2903535/Irans-Rouhani-condemns-killing-Islam.html

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani has denounced "terrorism" and violence committed in the name of Islam, after the deadly attack on French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris.

In remarks carried by Iranian media on Friday, Rouhani said "violence and terrorism is reprehensible whether in this region, in Europe or in the United States".

"Those who kill and carry out violent and extremist acts unjustly in the name of jihad, religion or Islam provoke Islamophobia whether they wish it or not," said Rouhani.

Imam Ahmad Khatami, the key leader of Friday prayers, reiterated that view in his weekly sermon.

"Islam does not allow the killing of innocents, be it in Paris, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan or Afghanistan," he said, adding he "vigorously condemns" the Paris carnage

[sudayev 27]

The US ambassador to France have said "we are all Charlie Hebdo".

We? Who actually? Many American journalists wrote today - we are not Charlie! There are many articles and ongoing debate from left to right (tv,paper,twitter,facebook) that American people don't like vulgar and obscene kind of humor presented in French magazine.

Fro example...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/opinion/david-brooks-i-am-not-charlie-hebdo.html?_r=0

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120717/charlie-hebdo-attacks-difference-between-american-and-french-satire

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/no-we-are-not-charlie/

more http://goo.gl/1CfulW

If they had tried to publish their satirical newspaper on any American university campus over the last two decades it wouldn’t have lasted 30 seconds.

TRUE.

In my opinion the US ambassador words are actually empty. It's pretty much like asking someone "how are you" and expecting nothing than "Great! I'm OK".

Simply couldn't he simply say that America feels sympathy with French people and as an ally of France will do everything to help France in these hard times.

[gliptal 25]

The few moments when the armed man is killed (the one running out after the flashbang is thrown) are censored. You can see the critical RAID officer on the ground at 00:49, in front of the grey Smart, on the right. Another wounded RAID officer is being dragged at 01:27 (it looks like he was shot at his right leg, look at how he pushes himself with the left one).

I've seen a photo in TV showing the critical RAID on the ground on a huge pool of blood, I hope he'll make it.

This said, I'm no expert but this looks like a very sloppy blitz. A great deal of shots were fired by RAID officers in what seems a blind fashion inside the building, and not one connected with the armed man (assuming there wasn't another one): he actually flees unarmed through the door and is shot instead of apprehended.

The RAID officers look unsure during the entry: I only have a little knowledge of military CQB tactics (police are different), but shouldn't they storm in hugging walls and clearing the doorway as soon as possible, instead of firing through the opening? Why throw the flashbang only after a few seconds, and not under the rising automatic door?

Don't get me wrong I feel in no way sorry for the armed man.

I've always thought that in these occasions the police should leave the blitz to military special forces. They are probably better trained, better equipped and better suited to clearing a room in a matter of moments. I can't help but think that a SF unit would have cleared the building faster and without the wounded, what do you guys think?

Yay! Edited January 9, 2015 by Gliptal

[mistyronin 1181]

In this case both RAID and GIGN are highly trained in this kind of situations, have more experience than military special forces ( with the exception of really few military special operation groups ).

They waited to throw the flash-bang to check what was happening inside first. Which is the logical thing to do, observe and then act.

On their shooting tactic, I don't think any of them shot blindly.

Remember that they were also raiding the building from at least another access.

On why do they shoot to a man that runs against them instead of apprehend him. How would they know that the specific man didn't had any explosives rigged to the body, or a grenade, or whatever.

BTW I'm not an expert in SWAT teams nor anything, tho I've worked close to a military Special Operations group ( we even shared corridor in our barracks ) and met a few SWAT guys.

[Sooke 13]

They shot the gunman because that's what you do when a djihadist is running towards you...he might have been unarmed, I can't tell from the video, but they didn't know if he had explosives and probably planning a suicide attack.

They didn't throw the flashbang before they could get a visual of the inside, they might have thrown it right in the face of a hostage.

Hugging the walls makes one less area to cover but usually they move from one "position of domination" to another regardless of the walls.

It's also very hard to judge the inner layout of the supermarket from this angle.

edit : sniped

[gliptal 25]

I see, thank for the insights. I just can't shake the feeling that something is off in the way they approached it, but it's probably me.

Yay!

[mistyronin 1181]

They shot the gunman because that's what you do when a djihadist is running towards you...he might have been unarmed, I can't tell from the video, but they didn't know if he had explosives and probably planning a suicide attack.

In fact if you check the video of Gliptal, and compare with the

( sec 7 ), the big explosion at the gate of the supermarket in the middle of the SWAT guys happens just at the same time as the terrorist guy was running against them.

So at least judging by these videos, it seems to me that the guy run against the SWAT team with probably a grenade that exploded, which can be the reason of the injured SWAT ( that you can see in the other videos that it's carried away of the scene by their mates after that explosion ).

Edited January 9, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

I also have the feeling that the whole thing was really sloppy executed. I think they didn´t have time enough to plan it right and just had to do it as the situation developed. I expected some flashbangs to be thrown beneath the opening door, it is easy to check if there are hostages on the other side or not and in such a situation you don´really care if you will throw it into the lap of some hostage. That person will still survive it. I also couldn´t believe that they were waiting so long for the door to open... They should have the means of going in faster than that. In the other video you can also see that they couldn´t get through the back door.

Remember that earlier video where apparently one officer drops a flashbang right in the midst of his guys?

And to top it all off, they almost shot each other (maybe they did...) when the guy came running out of the building.

There was an ex GSG9 member on German TV this evening, he said that the french units are problematic to work with because they think that they are amazing while they are in fact just ok when compared to the GSG9 for example.

[gliptal 25]

Missed that video. I can't understand what happened to the officer that was hit.

And to top it all off, they almost shot each other (maybe they did...) when the guy came running out of the building.

It really looks like that was friendly fire, I see no other way how that officer could have been wounded. If it were a grenade the explosion would have injured more than one RAID operator, and at the front of the group and not the middle to the right. He just seems to fall down for no apparent reason.

Yay!

Edited January 9, 2015 by Gliptal

[mistyronin 1181]

Missed that video. I can't understand what happened to the officer that was hit.

Yay!

Check your video and check this one that was shared before:

The guy that ran against the SWAT seems to had an explosive, in this uncensored one you can see it, and even how after the explosion the SWAT guys keep shooting at him in the floor in front of the supermarket. Seconds 7 to 12.

You'll also see how the downed SWAT is pulled by his mates after the explosion to the other side of the cars.

It really looks like that was friendly fire, I see no other way how that officer could have been wounded. If it were a grenade the explosion would have injured more than one RAID operator, and at the front of the group and not the middle to the right.

They all had protective equipment and used the shields as anti-fragmentation.

Edited January 9, 2015 by MistyRonin

[gliptal 25]

Check your video and check this one that was shared before:

The guy that ran against the SWAT seems to had an explosive, in this uncensored one you can see it, and even how after the explosion the SWAT guys keep shooting at him in the floor in front of the supermarket. Seconds 7 to 12.

After watching it for the 10th time it seems like you're right; I guess the officer wounded was at the front and was passed to the rear of the left section for safety?

Still what type of explosive could have had so little effect? A grenade would have wounded a lot more men.

Yay!