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toysoldier

Blood pool removed?

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Things like death screams in Ro2 are useless because of the type of fast peace shooter game which forces the players in don't giving a single fuck about the sound of a dead guy. However in Arma it might would have a total different effect, as well as gore.

If you want to show what is war, show also the cruel face of it, otherwise it will be nothing more then puppets shooting game (which is what arma has become).

I guess we are all grown up to see these stuffs.

I'm not saying it needs to be like BiA (even If I'd love it) but come on, removing even blood pool and blood spray it's ridicolous.

Edited by Babylonjoke

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I don't think vanilla ArmA will ever have realistic gore because, let's be honest here, it would only turn the game into a gore and sadism simulator like Soldier of Fortune was. Don't missunderstand me, SoF was a fun game, but it's obvious the majority played it because you could cut open stomachs with your knife in it. And I don't think BI want to turn ArmA into a gore sim. Most mature players of the franchise play it for the challenge, tactics and team play rather than to 'experience war' on their screens and it's not a 'war sim' anyway, but more a 'combat engagements sim'. Now there are those who wish for as authentic combat experience as possible but for that there are mods such as ACE, SLX and similar. Although I do think the franchise could touch upon some more controversial subjects. OFP had a strong anti-war message which was a bit lost in the newer ArmA games in favour of more sterile 'military simulation' that even played a bit on the patriotism (see Operation Arrowhead cover). Not to say that war was portayed as positive or even glorified, but it also didn't really explore any more sensitive subjects.

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I think we need to discuss why you think gore sends the message, I'm genuinely curious.

This is just my opinion (I'm not going to speak for others) so take it with a grain of salt if that, but I don't think gore itself is what causes war to feel horrible.

Rather the emotions brought by what you can and can not do. That there is this big entity that you have no control over, the adrenaline rushes you can depending on the situation types...overwhelming odds, being the next dead person in line.

And of course seeing the effects in more subtle ways.

To me seeing the human graves with flies flying about them, a blatant disregard for these people and tossing them aside like trash struck me far more than watching another avatar die.

I felt more emotion in the CWC resistance campaigns during the first capture where the russian officer executed a civilian because he spoke too much as opposed to seeing some guys guts spill.

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Red Orchestra Ostfront has still some of the best gore effects, mixed with good quality ragdoll and flying parts and still is only PEGI 16+. Although HoS is PEGI 18+ for some reason...

Just checked PEGI site, and while ArmaII was 16+, it's DLCs and Arrowhead all are 18+. I guess it could of explain the downgrade in bloody effects.

Edited by dunedain

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ArmA is a war simulator and having gore and blood should be there. Its not Gore PORN, but a simulation to show the seriousness of war and soldiering. I don't anyone makes light of this even when playing it.

I think BIS can assume its audience is mature enough to handle it and make a game for that specific crowd.

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I think we need to discuss why you think gore sends the message, I'm genuinely curious.

This is just my opinion (I'm not going to speak for others) so take it with a grain of salt if that, but I don't think gore itself is what causes war to feel horrible.

Rather the emotions brought by what you can and can not do. That there is this big entity that you have no control over, the adrenaline rushes you can depending on the situation types...overwhelming odds, being the next dead person in line.

And of course seeing the effects in more subtle ways.

To me seeing the human graves with flies flying about them, a blatant disregard for these people and tossing them aside like trash struck me far more than watching another avatar die.

I felt more emotion in the CWC resistance campaigns during the first capture where the russian officer executed a civilian because he spoke too much as opposed to seeing some guys guts spill.

I don't think anyone would panic because an in-game gore or anything like that, maybe a "wow" effect, great for videos, or tension building when things go wrong and you know you are next.... or are about to get out on a heroic way.

For me it's about things not seeing so off. A bomb explodes and you see a funny flying ragdoll? A kill house with numerous bodies and no blood?

It falls into the same categorie as shells casing\brass, sounds and SFX: immersion and feedback.

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BI devs: "...you can even stab yourself with a knife, as long as you don't see the DAMN BLOOD!"

Actually, I found it more disturbing to have suicide animations in game like DayZ, where half of the folk waiting for the game - I can safely say - is under 18 yo. but there is any problem with product that claimed to be "most realistic warfare simulator. game." and blood.

Hell, I would even skip dismemberment, but blood here should be everywhere, not just on uniforms, floor. Especially walls, bushes trees. That could actually have interesting gameplay effect.

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I'd love to see a grenade tear a group of soldiers apart. Watching Saving Private Ryan combat scenes, for instance, when a splash of blood rises and gore appears

on the screen, is much more convincing and forces you to take what's going on a lot more seriously.

Then you know there's consequences. Like becoming a red wet spot in Half life when making a mistake.

My vote: gore, blood and dismemberment must be in.

I know there'll be many people coming up with shit-worth excuses for everything, but whatever, let's ignore them.

In order to be worth its name ("authentic"), Arma must have extended gore simulation.

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Why stop at blood and gore in combat though? If we want 'authentic war sim' then there must also be beheadings, rapes, genocides, atrocities against civilians (including childern, women and elderly) and it must all be uncensored and graphic and allow the player to do it too. All for the sake of 'authenticy', even if it would mean that the game would have been banned in several countries and gather unwanted attention of censorship bodies and the public. :p

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Why stop at blood and gore in combat though? If we want 'authentic war sim' then there must also be beheadings, rapes, genocides, atrocities against civilians (including childern, women and elderly) and it must all be uncensored and graphic and allow the player to do it too. All for the sake of 'authenticy', even if it would mean that the game would have been banned in several countries and gather unwanted attention of censorship bodies and the public. :p

This is a clear misconception you're making when people go over the board with a certain term. Let's keep it real, shall we? :)

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I think more blood and perhaps screaming/crying upon death or injury would add so much more immersion to the game. As it is now, I just can't fully attach myself to the world in anyway, especially in a single player scenario, there is no emotion to any of it. Now of course this isn't the kind of game to bring out emotions and such by crafting characters to care about, but I'd at least like to feel a little bit for my teammates as they die instead of just being upset that I don't have another gun in the fight. I think Red Orchestra 2 has it down perfectly.

i agree.

in fact i think that if we're talking politcally correct bullshit then having less blood is very bad as i seperates the action from the consequences. a very dangerous thing.

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wtf i just realized that this is missing... bullshit... I paid for a game about WAR.. and War is DIRTY and BLOODY... i dont see any blood.. all i see are units with red splashes on their cloths.

why the fuck would you remove that feature... Big surprise, another bungle from BIS Dev team... thanks for slowly removing the details of the game that make it...

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I'd love to see a grenade tear a group of soldiers apart. Watching Saving Private Ryan combat scenes, for instance, when a splash of blood rises and gore appears

on the screen, is much more convincing and forces you to take what's going on a lot more seriously.

Then you know there's consequences. Like becoming a red wet spot in Half life when making a mistake.

My vote: gore, blood and dismemberment must be in.

I know there'll be many people coming up with shit-worth excuses for everything, but whatever, let's ignore them.

In order to be worth its name ("authentic"), Arma must have extended gore simulation.

Why would people bother to reply at all with this sort of attitude?

The game does not need to have dismemberment or heavy gore and the like. The consequence for making bad decisions or dying is that you miss out on the rest of the mission; have to re-load; respawn a distance away etc etc.

We don't need to see Pvt Smith rolling around clutching his freshly amputated leg or Cpl Hassan trying to keep what remains of his skull in his fancy CSAT helmet. As Nodunit mentioned there are other ways to imply the costs of war in a mission without blood and giblets everywhere.

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For my part the dismemberment should be for more fun... but technically seems to be a little difficult to implement (better for BIS to work on 3D engine optimisation I think)...

To be more serious I'm not searching something gore like doom or duke nukem etc... I searching for a simple blood splash when the guy is hit by a bullet (just to see is the target has been hit).

In case of C4 or big explosion like mortars etc... dismemberment should be something realistic and more immersive (ragdoll is ok but with the actual game technology we can do something better...).

Anyway removing blood on the ground is ridiculous I think if it has been made voluntary...

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Now I know what they are up to, makes all the sense:

header.jpg?t=1413477691

store.steampowered.com/app/259800/

:D

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Now I know what they are up to, makes all the sense:

http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/259800/header.jpg?t=1413477691

store.steampowered.com/app/259800/

:D

You mean another one of those day 0 DLCs Rome 2 has? Pieces of content that they could just include in the release but charge you money for? That's way worse than BI's DLC strategy. Though Rome 2 is worth it if you buy it in these steam sales :p.

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I don't think anyone would panic because an in-game gore or anything like that, maybe a "wow" effect, great for videos, or tension building when things go wrong and you know you are next.... or are about to get out on a heroic way.

For me it's about things not seeing so off. A bomb explodes and you see a funny flying ragdoll? A kill house with numerous bodies and no blood?

It falls into the same categorie as shells casing\brass, sounds and SFX: immersion and feedback.

Of course not, even in the most adrenaline fueled moment your brain knows you yourself are not in any form of losing your actual life and thus the horror effect doesn't occur.

About feedback, that sort of makes sense though I suppose it also depends on what you view the bomb as and what you want to achieve with it. Is it simply another tool with a wider area to kill people or are you wanting to display the magnitude of power behind it?

It is territory that has to be carefully tread because it can easily from realistic to overtly cartoony, which could be just as damaging.

Noticing a lot of people here are asking for realistic gore but are also citing hollywood movies...

If you want to see an example of actual blood and gore based on a gunshot (in this case a handgun) then there is a video on page 6 of of the Jimquisition through the Escapist (maybe youtube?).

I won't link it here of course and I won't say which it is (I'm pretty sure you can figure it out) but if you really want to see what true blood and "gore" looks like (granted it is on a smaller scale) then have a look at that if you dare, then we can discuss on a better note how things look.

Edited by NodUnit

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We don't need to see Pvt Smith rolling around clutching his freshly amputated leg or Cpl Hassan trying to keep what remains of his skull in his fancy CSAT helmet. As Nodunit mentioned there are other ways to imply the costs of war in a mission without blood and giblets everywhere.

I don't know, that'd be pretty... striking, I suppose? Definitely not a crucial feature, and one we're unlikely to ever see officially added, but it wouldn't be excessive in realistic doses. Perhaps it'd be better suited to a game with a more CQB-oriented scale like Insurgency, but I'd be interested if it ever appeared in Arma.

On the original topic as to where all the blood went, I'm wondering that myself. I find it hard to believe it's intentional censorship, but it's possible and a dev response would go a long way toward clearing that up.

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it's kinda sad how in the arma community everything is always about realism and everything is always super serious. i mean seriously ;)

gore in arma would be too disturbing? come on now guys. game technology barely reaches a level were stuff is really disturbing. and sorry to say it like that. but if you are a veteran that would be disturbed by more gore because of real life experiences, why would you play a game that depicts those actions at all? that is kinda fucked up to me (not the suicides in dayz lol). no judgement ofc and it's all hypothetical. but this is just the same tone and mentality that most discussions over this game are plagued by.

i think the real value, aside from all those subjective attitudes, more gore, and be it just some death/wounding screams and some more blood particles, could bring to the game, is immersion and simply characters not looking like frikkin robots. as people have mentioned. the lack of those things is what makes arma feel "souless", "sterile" and "cold". the friends you play with or your AI comrades don't suddenly become real people you know that die and never come back because of these things. that ridiculous to even compare that. the thing that those screams and blood add to insurgency and ro2 is atmosphere and immersion and getting closer to what movies can do.

this is how current arma AI react to being shot, which sucks...

any 80s/90s action movie has more "disturbing" gore than any violent game i ever played. and sometimes it even happens to characters that are more developed than any game campaign character. movies even deliberately make us root for punisher type characters going on a violent killing spree (talk about glorifying) often when they are based on the typical justified revenge plot. and yet mainstream media and for some reason also some gamers think it's worse in games just because you can pull the trigger yourself.

i can't even count how many times me or a friend just shot a friend in the face at base "for lulz" before going to the AO...does that make us psychopaths or numb to real violence or "kids"?

i think it's really important, for some people, to learn to distinguish entertainment, virtuality and artificially generated emotion from reality.

games are about entertainment and so is arma. arma is a shooter, if you want it or not. yea it's "different" but it's still a silly game where you shoot a lot of dudes. and the goal is of course to make it feel more convincing. and the lack of technology aside. let's not kid ourselves. violence is a very trivial thing without the context of reality.

often the most disturbing part of footage of someone actually dying or getting hurt is the sound they make (hard to replicate in a game even if one tried) or the look on their face. and even rendered fully animated high budget movies still aren't there in terms of mimics. you'd really have to go a loooong way in terms of story telling and sheer graphical fidelity to even come remotely close to the real emotion. it would most likely only happen, if you have experienced it in real life and a memory is triggered or if you would be fooled into thinking you are actually there and not just playing a game. non deliberate immersion so to speak.

sorry for the wall of text. it's late and i got lost ;) long story short. yes please more blood effects (dismemberment is a gimmick to me) and screams. they can only raise arma's production value. let's not act as if arma is underdeveloped in that regard solely based on being such a serious game :p

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lets make a VBS game :)

The medic will be really usefull in this case !

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The amount of blood and gore in A2 and A3 has always been minimal to the point of lameness, and does a lot to reduce immersion and make the game more sterile, less human, more robot-like, and just...plain jane. But has this ridiculously minimal amount of blood and gore been reduced further? I sure hope not. If so, that would be another stain on BI, just like the lack of female characters in A3 and the (sorry...) woefully lame, expedient A-10 stealth rework for 2035. And the removal of the ability to don enemy uniforms because that would be "against" the Geneva convention is just, well, WTF?

I'm sure people have seen this, which is quite over the top in terms of gore:

If BI removed more blood, they are running scared, scared of videos like that one, scared of...what? A "bad" 18+ Pegi rating? Nasty articles in the media saying they are monsters? Some players' sensibilities being hurt? Some E.U. or Czech regulatory agency coming after them? The motto of A3 is "THIS IS WAR." A war without bleeding out, screams, and dying animations is not war at all. War is not politically correct. But hey, this is just a video game, and BI is treating it like it's reality and must be censored. If BI removed some more blood, perhaps they have determined that their target audience is 10-16 year old boys and want to reduce the Pegi rating to 10+ to boost sales. Oh man.

Using current stable build:

ebcc96375240988.jpg

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it's not clear though, if it's a design/"morale" decision or just some random bug and lack of focus on a specific area of the game. i'm also pretty sure that the uniform stealing thing is just an excuse. the real problem was probably the task of making it work properly. let's not forget that it would require a whole new aspect to AI to deal properly with an enemy in a friendly uniform.

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I always thought the Geneva convention thing was a community made excuse, I had the impression they were quite open about the fact it was cut because the AI couldn't handle it.

As for the topic I think it's fine, as long as it doesn't turn into "pistol round in leg makes head explode", personally I don't think dismemberment is really needed. Sounds like far too much work for sod all actual gain, death screams might be a good idea as long as they record a lot of variations, it's the same issue if you make "personalised" vehicles (with backpacks and what not) but only include one variation, you actually end up noticing the lack of variety more rather than less. If you're going to make something sound personal, the player shouldn't think, "oh it's that sound sample". A blood pool sounds pretty reasonable though, to be honest I doubt they removed it on purpose, would seem a pointless thing to remove (but a very weird thing to manage to bug). In fairness I think they did add some extra wounded textures in a while back (like new ones for shots to the head) but I might have only just noticed that a while back.

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