U.S. Army is seeking new handgun

[chortles 263]

Yeah true , also dont foget that in the last competition the FNP45 was so close to win before they scrapped the program

And considering the arguments about what actually merits replacing, much less what to replace it with, I can see "buy your congressperson" raising its ugly head again. Then again, I'm someone who sees the AT-6 vs. Super Tucano legal throwdown as emblematic of 21st-century public procurement...

[mr burns 131]

Unfortunately Jacketed Hollow points are verboten

BI Forums taught me things like doppelganger and mishmash being perfectly well accepted english terms, but verboten? :D

Ontopic: As a german i´ve never fired anything other than bottle rockets, but i´ve completely taken apart and refitted M1911, cz75 & M9 in a f2p game called world of guns, and from these three only the M1911 did´nt suck major arse fiddling around with. M9 & CZ have so many tiny little parts and springs spread all over the damn gun, i started thinking they´d only built it that way to piss me off!

Go M1911!

[vilas 473]

i fired dozen of handguns circa 2 magazines from all that is in local shooting club armory but the best for me were : Glock, CZ-75 (this modernized which is in CZ DLC) and than SIG , for me the best aiming , the best results were either from Glock or CZ 75,

SIG medium and USP 9 - not that good,

and all that Beretta, HP, modern HP DA, M1911 - no, no, no , in dark close quater shooting it was not good and not easy aiming

i do not know how about reliability in dust, but in sport CZ75 and Glock was my favorite (maybe due to "short trigger" (Beretta has very long trigger "stress trigger" - i hate it, after 2 magazines i said "no" but from 2 CZ models (long 75 "Shadow" and medium army Cz pistol i had great results) , the longer handgun the easier to aim,

many countries use Glocks , but i was suprised that CZ75 is such great, if i was buying myself i would prefer CZ75 over USP 9 or SIG (Beretta - never)

[oxmox 73]

BI Forums taught me things like doppelganger and mishmash being perfectly well accepted english terms, but verboten? :D

Seems like a lot more words are used..... what are english native speaker saying to this list.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_expressions_in_English#German terms commonly used in English

Edited December 6, 2014 by oxmox

[lesscubes 1]

BI Forums taught me things like doppelganger and mishmash being perfectly well accepted english terms, but verboten? :D

Ontopic: As a german i´ve never fired anything other than bottle rockets, but i´ve completely taken apart and refitted M1911, cz75 & M9 in a f2p game called world of guns, and from these three only the M1911 did´nt suck major arse fiddling around with. M9 & CZ have so many tiny little parts and springs spread all over the damn gun, i started thinking they´d only built it that way to piss me off!

Go M1911!

It's not a common word but it's generally understood in English. (Sounds like forbidden.) Also know that in the US, parts of German culture and language are common. We drink German beer and eat German food.

DA/SA guns have more complicated trigger mechanisms. Hence the extra parts. Taking off SIG Grip panels can be fun for example, the de-cocker assembly likes to fall out. World of Guns is pretty cool, but man, unless you're a gunsmith you aren't taking the gun anywhere near that far apart. (Or you're bored... This is what leads to crawling around the floor for an hour looking for that little detent spring that shot off when you pulled the safety out.) Also, don't go find a shooting range, and do not rent any kind of firearm. You will enjoy it.

I think we're all kinds of offtopic now, but...

I really do hope that since they ARE already spending money on getting this program going, that it doesn't end up with them sticking with the M9. They've spent millions looking at replacing the M4 before and it's always just lead to more M4's. They've already killed off a few M9 replacements before. Either do it, or stop spending my tax dollars on these programs.

Worth noting also, the SIG P228 is already standardized as the M11 in the US Military for Naval aircrew and I believe CIS people. 226's and 239's are used by the SEAL's. H&K has Mk.23's, USP .45's and HK45's spread out with various secret squirrel type guys, Glocks were popular with Army guys in Iraq (who got them out of post-war Iraqi police holsters!) Recon Marines get M45's and old stock M1911's still find ways out into the field. It seems like everyone who isn't a line infantryman who uses his pistol has figured out some way to NOT use the Beretta.

Edited December 7, 2014 by lesscubes

[SpookyGunship 10]

i fired dozen of handguns circa 2 magazines from all that is in local shooting club armory

Yeah, exactly the enviorment for a military sidearm.

[roberthammer 582]

Worth noting also, the SIG P228 is already standardized as the M11 in the US Military for Naval aircrew and I believe CIS people. 226's and 239's are used by the SEAL's. H&K has Mk.23's, USP .45's and HK45's spread out with various secret squirrel type guys, Glocks were popular with Army guys in Iraq (who got them out of post-war Iraqi police holsters!) Recon Marines get M45's and old stock M1911's still find ways out into the field. It seems like everyone who isn't a line infantryman who uses his pistol has figured out some way to NOT use the Beretta.

True heh btw Sig did a special updated P320 for this MHS competition & http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/21/sig-sauer-gives-us-look-modular-handgun-system-candidate/

other entries are not known yet but i expecting the CZ’s, Hk's , XDm’s, Glocks, FN’s, M&P’s into this too

so it will be very interesting how all these pistols will show how good they really are

Edited December 7, 2014 by RobertHammer

[Tonci87 163]

It seems like everyone who isn't a line infantryman who uses his pistol has figured out some way to NOT use the Beretta.

And that is pretty telling!

[vilas 473]

Yeah, exactly the enviorment for a military sidearm.

i know that shooting club is not war - thats why i said about dust reliability issue

but long trigger is also something i noticed in Beretta - i pull trigger - and "why it doesn't fire" than i pull 1 cm more and than boom,

maybe long trigger is good for stress cases like self defence but in accurate and fast shooting it is not ,

[chortles 263]

Either do it, or stop spending my tax dollars on these programs.

Really my sentiment about this program -- supposedly all the M4 replacement failures-to-start actually scared off gun manufacturers because of how often those had bottomed out.

V Hence why I understand that a number of AR manufacturers actually became averse to these 'competes that aren't really' as a waste of their time and money.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Chortles

[warlord554 2065]

The military knows exactly what they want, and many companies have meet and exceeded every request, they just dont want to open their freaking checkbook

[roberthammer 582]

Berreta's answer , showing the new M9A3 most likely for the US army competition

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/12/17/berettas-answer/

Edited December 18, 2014 by RobertHammer

[krzychuzokecia 700]

All that fuss about US Army new handgun, while biggest M9 problem is an old type locking block, which is prone to break. Since 1980s Beretta introduced three newer, more reliable blocks, but to AMC it never happened, and (new) M9s are still using that old part (they may have changed that with M9A1 but I'm not so sure).

After all, it's all a moot discussion answer of which lies in personal preferences. Some will prefer JMB's 1911 with it's slow .45 ACP bullet (with magical stopping power attribute) and a 7-round single stack magazine (because real men don't need more). Others will choose Glocks with their lightweight polymer frame (making 9mm recoiling like a .44 Magnum) and safe-action pre-set striker (which makes trigger pull awfuly sponge and unpredictable).

MHS programme is going to be doomed just like IC was*. Let's be honest - there's really nothing THAT better with new guns, that'd excuse replacing all M9s. In the times of JSSAP it was different - US Army was falling behind with 1911s, when everyone was changing their guns to higher capacity double stacks with double action triggers. Now only new SIG have some really outstanding features, but again - will Army even use that features? I doubt - they won't buy different sized frames, different caliber barrels and so on.

*Actually Individual Carbine was one of few sensible military programmes in last few years. M4 Carbine, while still a very modern and modular design, suffers from some disturbing reliability problems. Adopting a similiar, but more reliable design (most IC contestants offered basically piston driven M4s) could bring notable financial savings.

[roberthammer 582]

Beretta released more info about their M9A3 - http://www.beretta.com/en-us/m9a3/#

Recently, Beretta has announced the M9A3, the next generation of the M9 US Military Service Pistol. The M9A3 is being submitted via an Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) in accordance with the terms of the current M9 contract.

“The M9A3 represents the next generation military handgun utilizing the best of the legacy M9 combined with proven COTS modifications that increase performance and durability†stated Gabriele de Plano, Vice President of Military Marketing and Sales for Beretta USA. Mr. de Plano added, “After listening closely to the needs of U.S. Army and other Service small arms representatives, we determined the M9, much like its counterpart legacy weapon systems (M4, M16, M240, etc.), was capable of being upgraded through material and design changes. The resulting M9A3 we are offering to the DOD will likely cost less than the current M9 and answer almost all of the Services’ enhanced handgun requirements.â€

The M9A3 features:- A thinner grip

- Removeable, modular wrap-around grip

- 1913 accessory rail

- Removable front and rear tritium sights

- Extended barrel with threading for a suppressor

- 17-round sand-resistant magazine

- Improvement to various small components

- Comes in an Earth Tone finish

[lesscubes 1]

If the A3 Beretta can be adopted under the existing contract, I bet that wins. Which, well, cost wise is good but otherwise sucks.

They DO need to replace those silly 1930's style flap holsters- yes troops can and do buy their own stuff but some kind of Molded or Kydex MOLLE-mount solution that can attach either to a leg rig or onto a plate carrier should be standard. It also means that those bad contract mags for the M9's that were proven to fail in Iraq and Afghanistan will still be floating around in the supply chain, regardless of the improved mags Beretta will include with the new guns.

[roberthammer 582]

Army Passes on Beretta’s Proposed M9A3

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/01/13/army-passes-berettas-proposed-m9a3/

[warlord554 2065]

Very amazing how quicky they turned it down robert. Cant say im very suprised they did though. Although now im curious and may add one to my collection ;)

Edited January 14, 2015 by WarLord554

[Tonci87 163]

Just shows how happy the are with their current Berettas :D Beretta? Never again.

[warlord554 2065]

Haha i know right? According to that article they didnt even want a sample model

[chortles 263]

The MHS requirements probably secretly included "not a Beretta M9"...

The sad part is, Beretta probably figured they had a shot because of how long "the Colt design" was able to get away with for service rifles. :rolleyes: Leaving out the fact that eventually "the Colt design" was no longer made by Colt (Defense)...

[milosv123344 37]

I think they should add two pistols as a CHOICE for the soldiers, smaller men and women would probably decided on a 9mm, while others could possibly go with a .45, it should be allowed for people to choose based on their performance with the firearm itself, as in combat situation, using the weapon you know better and shoot with better can save your life. When it comes to .45 pistol caliber, i like the 1911 but in firefights i suppose they would want more bullets per mag, the perfect choice in that regard would be the USP.45 which holds 12 rounds.

[Tonci87 163]

I think they should add two pistols as a CHOICE for the soldiers, smaller men and women would probably decided on a 9mm, while others could possibly go with a .45, it should be allowed for people to choose based on their performance with the firearm itself, as in combat situation, using the weapon you know better and shoot with better can save your life. When it comes to .45 pistol caliber, i like the 1911 but in firefights i suppose they would want more bullets per mag, the perfect choice in that regard would be the USP.45 which holds 12 rounds.

That would actually make the most sense but it would also be much more expensive.

[krzychuzokecia 700]

ACHTUNG! Wall of text ahead. TL;DR: modern pistols don't offer much more features than a Beretta 92 of Wonder Nine fame, to justify rearming a whole army. Even features of modular-as-it-takes SIG P320 might get buried in a sad reality of military bureaucracy.

Just note guys, that Beretta was turned down because it's not a modular handgun, not because the M9 have bad reputation (in US armed forces, I should add - other military/LE users seem to not have problems with 92 and it's variants). That only raises a question: how modular pistol can be? For example, to change Beretta 92 full size into a compact, one needs barrel, slide, magazine and frame - which means that You need whole gun! The same rule applies to Glock 17 and 19, though with Glocks it's easier to change calibers within one size - you need barrel and magazine.

SIG Sauer P320, which is so often hailed as the next-gen pistol, is really no much different. They've just made it's trigger housing easily detachable from the frame. But again, to change a full size P320 into a compact, you'd still need, yes, barrel, slide, frame and magazine! Where's that obscure, but oh so hypnotizing modularity? Truth is that You can't have a really modular pistol, because modern pistol designs are rather uniform and seamless designs.

OK, but Army states that the main reason behind the modularity thing is because people have different hands, so pistols for them have to be different sizes. Can't argue with that, but again - modern armed forces have problems with proper uniform sizes for their soldiers. Yes, often soldier have to walk in too big pants, and too small shirt! So do you believe that now they'll issue pistols in size fitting this one grunt's hand? Nope - they'll buy boat loads of universal L-frames, and a small numbers of Ss and Ms. Heck, even if they'd buy pistols with removable backstraps, to change the length of pull, those parts would magically dissappear in armourers desks, or in field (which was the problem with carry-handle sights on USMC M16A4s).

There's also another reasoning behind the MHS - Army wants to get back from 9mm NATO to .45 ACP. Why? Well, because .45 have more stopping power, and really 9mm is not 'Murican enough! However, the stopping power effect is something like Bigfoot - everybody talks about it, but nobody have seen it. Even if we'd agree with .45ers that 9mm doesn't make holes as big as a real man cartridge (which is not true - wounds made by 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP FMJs are similiar), then we'd still have problem with body armor penetration. In which the .45 ACP lacks due to it's low velocity. Oh, and not to mention that .45 produces bigger recoil, especially if someone have small hands - which contradicts the modular because of smaller hands requirement.

In fact, the whole MHS seems to be another waste of tax money. This time Army searches for perfect handgun with perfect cartridge. But we all know that such things doesn't exist. The closest to perfection designs are probably HKs USP family of guns, with their stellar reliability, and (not so) new Russian 9x21mm which packs a better punch than 9x19, and have even better armor penetration. However USPs are too expensive to arm a whole army with them, and adopting an enemy cartridge doesn't sound really (they could've made a new one, but MHS is COTS-type programme). So, if MHS would end with actually adopting a new gun, it won't be a new quality weapon when compared to M9. Though it will provide ammo for Internet armchair-commandos, who will bash Beretta for not being tier-1 operator enough. ;)

[beastcat 14]

Well, thats kinda dissapointing (To me at least, but I guess I'm not really an authority for the US army :D). Sure the Beretta platform has its flaws, but I always liked how it looked. If they really pull a new gun through, I hope it will look as nice as the predecessors.

Oh and to add to the calibre discussion, I found this to be really interesting:

The FBI is basically saying that the 9mm round is pretty much superior or the same in almost every way to the .45, having caught up to it due to technological progress.

[eddo36 16]

FBI stats shows gunfights to usually be within 10 feet though.

Here are the FBI's 1994 - 2003 stats on Law Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed with firearms with details on the distance between victim officer and offenders.

Total Officers killed --- 568

Contact to 5 feet ------- 286 -- % 50

6 feet to 10 feet ------- 122 -- % 22

11 feet to 20 feet ------- 60 -- % 11

21 feet to 50 feet ------- 47 -- % 8

Over 50 feet ------------- 43 -- % 8

Distance not reported 10

83% were killed within 21 feet.