Russia General

[Rydygier 1302]

Can't we have defensive/whatever we want systems on, our own after all, territory?

 

 

IMO no one have a right to deny that to other country. Personally I don't care, how much assets/forces Russia want to have, and where located, as long they stay inside Russia borders. And expect symmetric approach. Putin tries to "deny"/refuses to respect that right eg in case of my country. 

 

Somehow it did not affect their reputation (somehow it never happens at all).

 

 

 

Yes, it's quite interesting to analyze reason of that - poor Russia reputation and generally good US reputation (except all this "Great Satan" thing) in all this "distrust feedback loop", because there always are reasons. Don't know about other countries, suspect similar causes, but here, in Poland, Russia has bad reputation very long time. It's historical, started long before USA mattered anything here or even existed and there are very particular reasons. And US? Is often criticized, but much easier to be liked. I mean, if one of them, Russia or US, could dominate whole world completely, so the whole world becomes US or Russia, which one would be chosen by most people and why? Besides, seems, US was worldwide (with noticeable exceptions) mentally accepted as "world's policeman" - job is taken. Also worthy of mentioning is US' cultural domination - Hollywood etc. That also imprints something in people's minds. 

 

In Poland many US actions are criticized as well, but USA still are liked in general. American troops was warmly welcomed this year. Same, as wormly welcomed was Russian troops exit years ago. Because of values, still fresh potential of bold people and life style, it represents. Russia is perceived kinda on the contrary, especially with all these communistic past and yearnig. Some dark land of poor, unhappy, passive and fatalistic people, mentally rotten society and expansionistic, cynical rulers, where better not to go and the more not allow to become a participant of this misery. 

 

In short, what US represents and seem to propose is much, much better and more tempting fo many people. Also in the past - who truly and freely prefered/chosen life in communism rather in liberal capitalism? 

 

Another intersting thing would be to gather and compare both, US' and Russia's neighbours about these two. 

[dimon 28]

[Rydygier 1302]

37-old Russian sentenced for spreading lies because he said, in 1939 USSR invaded Poland together with Hitler

 

The Supreme Court upheld that sentence. 

 

 

The Supreme Court of the Russian Federation rejected the appeal against the judgment of the court in the Land of Perm, which fell in June. Vladimir Åuzgin, a professional locksmith car was then sentenced to a fine of 200 thousand. rubles (more than 3 thousand. USD) based on the provisions relating to rehabilitate Nazism. The court ruled that the man has committed a public denial of the decisions of the Nuremberg trial and the dissemination of "blatantly false statements about the activities of the Soviet Union during the Second World War."

 

 

 

The Supreme Court lawyers quoted passages from textbooks published in Russia in the mid-90s, when Åuzgin finished school. They have been reported in them - as reports the newspaper "Kommersant" - a secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the joint parade of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht in Brest in 1939. Rieznik stressed, inter alia, that until 1989 remained silent about such facts as the Soviet aggression on Poland and Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. The defender also argued that from a legal point of view, can not be considered "rehabilitation of Nazism" view of the fact that Hitler made the crime together with the Communists.

 

Apparently indeed in Russia the truth is considered as "rehabilitation of Nazism". Funny, how similar this approach is to the own history to Ukraine's UPA (UIA) "heroes". Just much more shameless. I wonder, what they're now saying about, say, Katyn. How to respect a country, that doesn't respect own history, the truth about itself?

[Tonci87 163]

You can really say a lot about Germany, but they at least own up to their own horrible past and don´t try to justify or change it. (The same can´t be said about Japan for example, another looser of WW2)

The Victors of WW2 on the other hand, and I´m including all three big players in this, but especially Russia, because in some ways Stalin was more of a monster than Hitler, are really prone to making themselves look better than they were.

 

That is sad.

[ProfTournesol 956]

(BBC) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37495067

International prosecutors say Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was downed over eastern Ukraine in 2014 by a Buk missile that had come from Russia.

They also narrowed down the area it was fired from to a field in territory controlled by Russian-backed rebels.

All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in mid-air flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

Russia says it cannot accept the findings as the final truth, saying no Russian weapons were taken to Ukraine.

"Based on the criminal investigation, we have concluded that flight MH17 was downed by a Buk missile of the series 9M83 that came from the territory of the Russian Federation," chief Dutch police investigator Wilbert Paulissen told a news conference on Wednesday.

So, no more tin foil hat theories trying to clear rebels responsability ?

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

(BBC) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37495067

So, no more tin foil hat theories trying to clear rebels responsability ?

Would have imagined this one to be obvious to begin with, even without an investigation. It was Ukraine who were using jets during the beginning of the conflict... so at what point would the Ukrainians needs Air Defense against a non-existent air threat? 

[JdB 151]

So, no more tin foil hat theories trying to clear rebels responsability ?

Only those not familiar with Russian propaganda methods and internet brigades might think that :P

[archbishop lazarus 24]

Would have imagined this one to be obvious to begin with, even without an investigation. It was Ukraine who were using jets during the beginning of the conflict... so at what point would the Ukrainians needs Air Defense against a non-existent air threat? 

 

Then how would you explain that in the said area, there were at least 3 pro-Kiev AD units, with Buk missile systems?

 

And on the other hand, the Kiev junta also had a reason of shooting the plane down: Knowing they cant win the war only themselves, they shoot down the plane, simply blaming the LNR/DNR militias, hoping for a NATO intervention?

 

So, actually either side had reasons to do it. And Im not trying to defend either. Unfortunately, it is highly likely we will never know the truth about this. Nobody could provide anything that would prove who did it. The only thing we know, that MH17 was shot down by a 9M38M1 missile. Nothing else!

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Then how would you explain that in the said area, there were at least 3 pro-Kiev AD units, with Buk missile systems?

 

And on the other hand, the Kiev junta also had a reason of shooting the plane down: Knowing they cant win the war only themselves, they shoot down the plane, simply blaming the LNR/DNR militias, hoping for a NATO intervention?

 

So, actually either side had reasons to do it. And Im not trying to defend either. Unfortunately, it is highly likely we will never know the truth about this. Nobody could provide anything that would prove who did it. The only thing we know, that MH17 was shot down by a 9M38M1 missile. Nothing else!

Hmmm, good points, that's a possible thought. I also thought about that when i realized Ukraine possessed the same/similar Buk Systems. There's always the possibility of a Member state of an organization like NATO abusing it's status to invoke intervention in it's favor. It's something i thought about, one of NATO's biggest flaws when it comes to constantly adding nations into it's block... The biggest threat to Europe, Russia, and even NATO itself, honestly.

[JdB 151]

Hmmm, good points, that's a possible thought. I also thought about that when i realized Ukraine possessed the same/similar Buk Systems. There's always the possibility of a Member state of an organization like NATO abusing it's status to invoke intervention in it's favor. It's something i thought about, one of NATO's biggest flaws when it comes to constantly adding nations into it's block... The biggest threat to Europe, Russia, and even NATO itself, honestly.

If a member attacks another country on that non-member's own territory then they're on their own. Like Turkey is now that they have invaded Syria. If a non-member flies their military aircraft over a member's territory while exhibiting flight manoeuvres that indicate hostile intent or flying with their transponder switched off then after the regular procedures have been followed those aircraft risk getting shot down. All perfectly easy to log and determine on both civilian and military radar. A ground based incursion wouldn't go unnoticed since there are plenty of satellites, drones and other surveillance assets watching the eastern border. Some burnt out vehicles help with identification too. For example I think the number of T-72B3s in the Russian arsenal has declined considerably in recent years which was the main indicator for direct Russian involvement in Ukraine along with the training related fatalities in the Russian army spiking considerably and relatives being harassed when trying to talk about it ...

Any offensive provocation on a non-member's territory is an illusion at best, most countries near the border don't even have the capability of doing something like that without it being clear for everyone to see that they started it which again means no support.

Countries in Eastern Europe starting any conflict with Russia is really not an issue since the military forces of those countries need a lot of work to become a credible force and they'd bare the brunt of the response. Much easier to fight in someone else's backyard rather than your own. Armenia/Azerbaijan and ethnic tensions in and around Serbia are really the only problem spots I can think of in and around Europe where military alliances aren't obligated by a charter to support either side but have interests and both sides consider accomplishing their goals feasible, or they just don't care (religious extremists). Some Balkan countries aren't in NATO yet and any ethnic group in that region wanting to make their move could feel rushed to make their move before that happens. Proxy warfare is not so unthinkable in those places. Non-state actors like militia leaders are a much bigger problem than any country as a whole.

Were Ukrainian BUK systems seen racing for their home bases like the one in rebel territory was documented by many ordinary citizens moving into the area early on July 17 2014 from Russia and then racing for the Russian border on the night of July 18 2014, only hours after the death of 298 people? Unless those people living in Eastern Ukraine that posted pictures and videos of the BUK on social media are all opposed to the rebels/are all spies with faked material on social media before the crime had even been committed? Why bring it in and then move it back out again within 24 hours without having engaged any Ukrainian military aircraft that were hurting the rebels so much on their offensive to create a path to the Russian border? Suddenly all of the rebel commanders (and allegedly the Russian Spetznatz advising them) no longer needed the air defence capability that they had been pleading for hours earlier despite no major chance in the capability of the Ukrainian air force? Because this particular BUK was being operated by people who shouldn't have been there, coming from a country that wasn't officially involved and which hadn't intended what ended up happening because on it's own the BUK without the rest of the AD system is rather limited at target identification and the crew were under immense pressure to relieve the rebel forces, realizing how it would make them look on the world stage?

For Ukraine shooting down a civilian airliner was just as useless as it was for Russia, probably even more so since they would have lost all political support, military cooperation and goodwill from the population of all NATO members. It wouldn't have been able to invoke Article 5 even if the Ukrainians had immediately afterwards had produced an irrefutable amount of evidence showing Russian involvement whether faked in a false flag operation or real. Ukrainian airspace is not NATO airspace and the aircraft wasn't about to leave NATO airspace either. If for example the Russians had shot down an airliner flying over Poland as it was approaching the Russian border that would be totally different.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, probably conspiracists are back with the 'what if' theories, but the obvious is the rebels shooting the airplane then hiding the Buk in Russia. From the very beginning there have been internet posts from the rebels saying they had downed an Ukrainian plane, which were removed immediately, then several radio conversations about it. The fault lied on Russia letting people buy such system without enough knowledge on how to use it, and letting those people hide in Russia, and on the airline not diverting planes over a war zone where several planes were shot down in the same week.

[JdB 151]

Well, probably conspiracists are back with the 'what if' theories, but the obvious is the rebels shooting the airplane then hiding the Buk in Russia. From the very beginning there have been internet posts from the rebels saying they had downed an Ukrainian plane, which were removed immediately, then several radio conversations about it. The fault lied on Russia letting people buy such system without enough knowledge on how to use it, and letting those people hide in Russia, and on the airline not diverting planes over a war zone where several planes were shot down in the same week.

And Ukraine for not closing it's airspace over an active warzone.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

So in conclusion, no one truly knows, despite the investigation, there has been conflicting evidence from both sides, but they do know a BUK was for sure involved. Honestly, with this evidence, i think both Ukraine and the rebels should be held accountable, everyone involved really. If it's impossible to find out who committed the war crime, i think it's safe to play the "punish them all" card. If no one wants to speak the truth, and the information war is too deep, the only way to solve the issue is to make everyone accountable. Otherwise it will simply end up remaining a war of words from all sides, and ultimately lead to nothing, with 298 people lost without reason.

[spooky lynx 73]

 

 

International prosecutors say Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was downed over eastern Ukraine in 2014 by a Buk missile that had come from Russia.

If international prosecutors consider 'voentorg' as the source of Buk then what's the point of bringing single TEL to warzone and then bringing it back shortly after possible action?

[archbishop lazarus 24]

So in conclusion, no one truly knows, despite the investigation, there has been conflicting evidence from both sides, but they do know a BUK was for sure involved. Honestly, with this evidence, i think both Ukraine and the rebels should be held accountable, everyone involved really. If it's impossible to find out who committed the war crime, i think it's safe to play the "punish them all" card. If no one wants to speak the truth, and the information war is too deep, the only way to solve the issue is to make everyone accountable. Otherwise it will simply end up remaining a war of words from all sides, and ultimately lead to nothing, with 298 people lost without reason.

 

THIS!

 

Anyway, absolutely no evidence for anything other than a 9N314M warhead detonated near the plane. Both side had reasons. Its also possible that this was just a "private action" of some psychopathic soldiers, from either side, without orders from their superiors. So there is no point of accusing anybody.

[Tonci87 163]

THIS!

 

Anyway, absolutely no evidence for anything other than a 9N314M warhead detonated near the plane. Both side had reasons. Its also possible that this was just a "private action" of some psychopathic soldiers, from either side, without orders from their superiors. So there is no point of accusing anybody.

 

 

Did you ignore the post that described that the rebels bragged about downing a plane online, and then deleted the posts when they realised what they had done?

Sure, psychopatic soldiers is much more convenient as an explanation than "Russia fucked up by giving the rebels such a system in the first place, maybe even with russian soldiers."

[spooky lynx 73]

Did you ignore the post that described that the rebels bragged about downing a plane online, and then deleted the posts when they realised what they had done?

Sure, psychopatic soldiers is much more convenient as an explanation than "Russia fucked up by giving the rebels such a system in the first place, maybe even with russian soldiers."

I'd ask again: what is the point of giving single TEL without radar and loader vehicles? And what's the point of bringing it almost on frontline? What advantages does such vehicle upon Strela-10 or Osa-AKM that were already in separatists' arsenal? And why the hell was it brought back to Russia after supposed fvck up instead of being burned somewhere in Donbass fields? :D

[ProfTournesol 956]

To hide the fact that Russia f** up big time, mate. Can't forget that Russian general trying to explain how the plane was shot down by an Ukrainian fighter. Looked like Benny Hill show.

[spooky lynx 73]

Isn't it more logical not to risk while moving such unusual and notable vehicle but destroy it somewhere nearby? Some burned wreckage isn't informative as much as TEL towed on the trailer, right? And again: why single TEL but not the whole complex?

BTW...

First pic is a screenshot from Ukrainian censor.net site and article about Ukrainian army Buks in the warzone (near Soledar town).

Second one is a supposed Russian/rebel Buk.

[JdB 151]

To hide the fact that Russia f** up big time, mate. Can't forget that Russian general trying to explain how the plane was shot down by an Ukrainian fighter. Looked like Benny Hill show.

Including the two times that they tried to present two separate "satellite images" of the SU-25 that were so obviously (read: poorly) photoshopped.

Destroying the unit in some field means leaving physical evidence that it was there and theoretically a prime suspect. To eliminate themselves as suspects and blame the Ukrainians the rebels/Russians needed it gone altogether.

[Tonci87 163]

I think there was also a lot of panic reaction on the rebel and russian side after they realized what they had done. The unit needed to be removed from the area as fast as possible, simply burning it in a field would still have left evidence, and also a coloumn of smoke is noticable in its own rigth. And we still can´t be sure that it was a Rebel crew that operated the vehicle. Going by the fact that you need some advanced training to operate such a vehicle, it seems possible that the operators where "on vacation".

[ballistic09 241]

Second one is a supposed Russian/rebel Buk.

 

No, it's not. Not even close. That picture comes from a Facebook post from March 18th in 2014...

 

 

The theory that this was the same Buk spotted retreating on the night of July 17th was debunked almost immediately, and wasn't presented anywhere as actual evidence by the JIT. It's not even the right model of truck or trailer... Please, stop with the nonsense.

[Sanya 97]

All videos look like as if they were made specifically before the war.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Last i recall, it's very possible that Russia was involved. Possible because i distinctly remember Russia forcing certain people who happened to be on, near the border, inside Ukrainian border to stop posting on social media. Such included soldiers who were taking selfies, and blogging about how they're with a certain Artillery unit, and providing support. The controversy was that their posts were tracked by GPS, and as such, pin-pointed their locations inside or on the border with Ukraine. This does to some extent show that weather or not they're Russians, they aren't well trained. This could also prove that the rebels having ranted about downing a jet, which would be something a group of trigger happy rebels would want to to, given they've no where else to talk about their achievement that they could have deemed "epic" before they realized it was a civil airline. At the end of the day, these rebels need to be held accountable, and investigated. Same with the people responsible for failing to notify the Malaysian Airline it was entering a contested zone during conflict. This could be seen as part of the war crime, and Ukraine should be investigated for that neglect. At this point, no one is innocent, honestly. So i fail to see how fingers are only being pointed from one group to another. The lack of accountability being ascertained from the UN, and the International Community, is quite frustrating.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, it very sad for all the casualties. I can't forget the pictures i saw in Paris Match with the passengers' dead bodies - some of them being quite intact - still tied to their seat.