Russia General

[ProfTournesol 956]

no legal consequences = no juridical consequences....got it ? :)

I got it from the start : don't you see how absurd it is ?

[mistyronin 1181]

--> The source added that there would not be "legal consequences" if the 1991 recognition of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania was deemed to be illegal.

You mean the same Putin that promised that there were no Russian soldiers in Crimea and that Russia will never annex it?

BTW there can't be no legal comsequences, but military ones...

[oxmox 73]

I got it from the start : don't you see how absurd it is ?

not really, what is absurd ?

The investigations alone, yeah wonder why they do it anyway.

Edited June 30, 2015 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

My reading advise to Mister Putin :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubu_Roi

[oxmox 73]

You mean the same Putin that promised that there were no Russian soldiers in Crimea and that Russia will never annex it?

BTW there can't be no legal comsequences, but military ones...

Making a story out of this article, could be absurd too :D

Just wait if we will read anything in the next weeks about it...

[srbknight 925]

Russia spending 50bln$ on T-50 pak fa total order confirmed by MOD-Ru 162 aircraft !

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/27-05-2015/130747-russia_fifth_generation_smartplane_pakfa-0/

---------- Post added at 06:16 ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 ----------

A new Russian spyplane skirted the airspace of eastern Ukraine today

Social media are going frenzy after a Russian Air Force Tu-214R was spotted and tracked on the Internet, by means of its ADS-B transponder signals detected by Flightradar24 collecting stations, as it flew from Kazan to Crimea and back, closely following the border between Russia and Ukraine on Jun. 18.

Built by the Kazan Aircraft Production Association’s (KAPO) and flown from the company’s airfield, the Tu-214R registered RA-64514, serial number 42305014, is the second of the twelve examples of this kind of aircraft built under contract with Russia’s Ministry of Defense. Aircraft is planned to replace Il-20 coot from naval aviation

It is equipped with all-weather radar systems and electro optical sensors that produce photo-like imagery of a large parts of the ground: these images are then used to identify and map the position of the enemy forces, even if these are camouflaged or hidden. Furthermore the aircraft is known to carry sensor packages to perform ELINT (Electronic Intelligence) and SIGINT (Signal Intelligence) missions: the antennae of the Tu-214R can intercept the signals emitted by the enemy systems (radars, aircraft, radios, combat vehicles, mobile phones etc) so as it can build the EOB (Electronic Order of Battle) of the enemy forces: where the enemy forces are operating, what kind of equipment they are using and, by eavesdropping into their radio/phone communications, what they are doing and what will be their next move.However the pilots of Ukraine air force said that aircraft was not able to engage with radar lock !

---------- Post added at 06:23 ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 ----------

7.1.2015 Russian air force will receive another A-50U by end of this year

http://globalaviationreport.com/2015/07/01/russian-air-force-takes-order-of-the-another-three-a-50u-awacs-aircraft/

[mistyronin 1181]

Due to a piece of news that important, I looked for a Kremlin funded media, to avoid bias accusations.

(Sputnik News) Russia's Military Disneyland: What is Patriot Park Really About?

The Patriot military theme park in the Russian town of Kubinka opened its doors for Russian and foreign visitors on June, 16, hosting the Army-2015 international military-technical expo.

President Vladimir Putin takes part in opening ARMY-2015 international forum

The park, dubbed Russia's "Military Disneyland," which covers more than 4,000 hectares will provide its visitors with a unique opportunity to "test" Russia's heavy weapons, such as the T-90 tank, or the famous Ka-52 Alligator attack helicopter. Although only military training simulators are on offer, they still give the full experience of carrying out a special mission to their intrepid pilots and drivers, both young and old alike. Visitors will also be able to shoot Kalashnikov rifles and take part in extreme sports.

"Young people will not only be able to visit exhibits, but also drive and fly on military equipment, shoot military weapons and do parachute jumps," Russia's Defense Minister stated last July.

Patriot Park is meant to become "an important element in [Russia's] system of military-patriotic work with youths," President Vladimir Putin emphasized.

Yeah sure... that Putin builds a huge militaristic propaganda theme park to manipulate the Russian youth and the only "remarkable" thing is that there's Stalin and Beria magnets...

Remarkably, Western journalists have not missed a chance to make mountains out of molehills, focusing attention on the fact that fridge magnets with Joseph Stalin and Lavrentiy Beria were on sale in the park sold among other items depicting Russian and Soviet political figures.

Edited July 7, 2015 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

(BBC News) Russia vetoes UN move to call Srebrenica 'genocide'

Russia has vetoed a United Nations Security Council resolution that would have described the Srebrenica massacre as "genocide".

Four other members of the council abstained while the remainder voted in favour.

The killing of some 8,000 Muslim men and boys in 1995 by Bosnian Serb troops was the worst massacre in Europe since World War Two.

[Tonci87 163]

Really not surprising

[oxmox 73]

Definately a questionable decision by Russia, wonder what are their motives and justifications.....

Edited July 9, 2015 by oxmox

[drebin052 323]

wonder what are their motives and justifications.....

The vote had been put back a day to allow the US and the UK - which drafted the resolution - to try to persuade Russia not to veto it.

A petty counter-move but you know...sabotaging evil Western Capitalist pig-dogs, solidarity with their glorious Serbian comrades, etc. Basically the usual rhetoric.

[oxmox 73]

A petty counter-move but you know...sabotaging evil Western Capitalist pig-dogs, solidarity with their glorious Serbian comrades, etc. Basically the usual rhetoric.

Probably....

Well, they are definately both not angels :D

[vilas 473]

Definately a questionable decision by Russia, wonder what are their motives and justifications.....

motives might be that in Yugslavian war few sides commited crimes and also Serbs suffered but condemnation resolution touches only one side, plus maybe Russians deeply focused on WW2 issues and crimes against Serbs , cause they look at 90s war from pre-40s perspective ?

we must remember that Yugoslavian war was not "white-black evil-victim" conflict only, unlike WW2 where Hitler attacked other countries,

Yugoslavian region history is so complicated, everyone fought with everyone and historical problems influenced also hateflood in 90s, and Serbs suffered too in this 90s war,

problem of understanding this war in Yugoslavia is because each media (western or eastern) informed only about one side, west knew only about Serb crimes, east only knew about anti-Serb crimes, without all WW2 background and pre-WW2 background,

this website (i do not know who made it, but several similar websites can be found) http://polishallied.salon24.pl/433588,srebrenica-masakra-czy-manipulacja claims that it was different

i found several infos also about Croatian WW2 crimes, about Bosniak Muslims attacking Serbs from 1992 before Srebrenica 1995,

it is hard to judge without proper study, but for sure in both west and eastern media - there were misinformations or lacks of informations about war in Yugoslavia and maybe this cause Russian opinion ?

sometimes our media show us only one side and without studying hard ourselves we have no full knowledge, only thanx to internet we can study more, but if we had only TV in 90s, our vision was shaped only by official channel in TV and we remember infos from that time, after communism collapse would be hard to hear any information that would say anything not wrong about biggest Russian ally in Europe which is Serbia,

Edited July 9, 2015 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

No, it's not hard to judge. Executing 8000 civilians is a genocide. French Blue helmets were dishonered btw.

[vilas 473]

some sources claim it was 2000 fighters not civilians,

some sources claim that from 1992 - 1995 (3 years period before massacre) Serbs were contstantly attacked and also slaughtered,

it is not that one day "bad evil" Serbs woken up "lets slaughter" , tensions in that region were arising from WW1 and in first months after collapse of communist Yugoslavia, Serbs were attacked too,

and maybe this leads to position that Russia took , because they look from other perspective

i do not studied it, but i try to find reason for Russian+Serbs attituded toward 90s conflict in ex Yugoslavia region,

because you know - sometimes people overract on previous deeds of other side, sometimes people attack,

i am not trying to easy find "black-white" answer, i am trying to find "why",

it is like saying about "racism" in some small town, when Gyspises live, people on west see "racist attack on Roma minority" , locals for decades are being robbed, pickpocketed etc.

or like "antisemitism" in Ukraine while in NKVD big percent of Jews were officers,

i am trying to find why, before painting "black-white" view based on what mainstream media tell me, some times media tell truth, sometimes not, sometimes people attack cause they are "bad", sometimes people attack cause they were poked for years (do you know game "poke the pinguin" ? : http://www.gamesville.com/html_downloads/pokePenguin.php please poke the pinguin for while )

the same works in rusophobia of course, cause other nations were poked for centuries, the same works in middle east ex colonies terrorists etc.

Edited July 9, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

some sources claim it was 2000 fighters not civilians

Not according to the peacekeepers that witnessed part of it. Besides you only have to check the ages.

It was a genocide.

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, whatever you want to call it. It was done to remove Bosniaks from that territory and to show everyone that the UN "save zones" are not safe at all (without the Croatian Operation Storm the same would have happened in Bihac, another UN safe zone). It was a demonstration of power and terror by the Serbs.

Ironically this Genocide was the reason why Croatia gained the International support to start large scale offensive Operations wich was very restricted by the UN before that. Croatian Operations Storm and Maestral that steamrolled the Serbian military were a direct result of this genocide and it also was the reason for the NATO intervention in the Kosovo.

Serbia and Russia are the only countries that deny that the massacre happened.

[Drxi 10]

some sources claim it was 2000 fighters not civilians

8000+ Civilians including men,women and children of all age were mass executed/raped mate , not one of em had arms to defend themselves. And there might be some civilian casualties on Serb side i don't deny that , but slaughtering 8k+ civilians.. and denying it's a genocide.. nonsense and up to this day there are still XXX missing family members that are executed and buried god knows where.

[vilas 473]

due to gore-rule i cannot post several links which also show that Mujahedins (Muslim foreign fighters) commited also lots of crimes on territory of Yugoslavia 2, 3, 4 years before Srebrenica,

problem is that some of such informations were cenzored on the west (all can be found in google)

according to many websites from 1991 to 1993 Muslim jihadists also which came from abroad of Bosnia, started many crimes on Serbs including also 200+ civilians murders in one city,

only link not containing gore pictures is this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3254890.stm

from 2003, BBC, about one case,

on other websites there are many many similar infos but with gore photos, showing that 4 years before Srebrenica it seems that Serbs were victims,

problem in every war is self-accelerating violence and revenge vicious circle, someone kill someone, than someone kill 2 others, than relative of those 2 others kill 4 another and...

Yugoslavian war was not black-white, there were also Mujahedins coming there to kill Orthodox, because for them it was Jihad 4 years before Srebrenica ,

question is if UN and other institution condemned also other side of conflict ?

killing 8k civilians is huge crime but one should not forget that before of it spirale of violence was accelerating,

war in Yugoslavia was mainly cause Serbs not accepted fall and division of Yugoslavia into different countries which of course is against freedom of nation to have own state, but also Jihadists were causing there a lot of violence and crimes,

many sources say that reason for war was not only Serbian resistance against other nations to separate but also "Great Albania" Islamic extremism , ethnic cleansing was committed by both sides there, and foreign Mujahedins came there too, UCK terror acts (if we call ETA as terrorists, than UCK should be called even more)

even mainstream politically corect media in my country say "we cannot call that only Serbs are bad and rest is innocent":

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/o-tym-sie-nie-mowi-nieznana-strona-wojny-na-balkanach/dqmmm

interesting read about how opposite side hired public relation company to destroy Serbia (which was victim there in WW2 cause opposite side cooperated with Third Reich)

there were 2 extremists in that war, not 1 bad and 1 good,

but from one side Serb resistance against other nations to have their state , from other side Mujaheddins kiling Serbs , plus WW2 remains (where local Muslims joined SS and were killing Serbs, so in 1990 it was less than 2 generations from WW2 - we must remember in 1990 it were fresh wounds because people who fought in WW2 back than in 1990 were 60-70 years old, so ethnic tensions were alive in people who participated in WW2, not from "history books" , from end of WW2 it was 45 years back than, people who were teenagers during WW2 in 1990 might not been even retired yet, just like i remember from my childhood that for older people WW2 was main topic of any discussion when i was kid in 80s, for ones it were Germans, for others it was NKVD that was main topic of life problems)

Yugoslavia was very mixed ethnically after collapse of Ottoman Empire , which ruled and occupied southern Europe for many centuries,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Map-of-Ottoman-Empire-in-1900-German.svg/1920px-Map-of-Ottoman-Empire-in-1900-German.svg.png

1900 Ottoman Empire map

back than probably Serbs were not main agressors ; )

than Yugoslavia was created after WW1, than it lasted and WW2 happened (one side joined Hitler, second side who suffered in WW2 were... Serbs ), than it collapsed in 1990s

European ethnic issues are very often basing on history of one occupying other or vice versa and history not started yesterday (shame, cause if it started yesterday, noone would have issue to others, in 1990 many people who suffered in WW2 , were just 60-70 years old, they had very fresh memory and their sons grown in this atmosphere, like my parents grown in remembering all crimes against my nation during WW2 )

Edited July 10, 2015 by vilas

[Degman 73]

Vilas, even if you may think that your opinion is objective, it is not. Actually, it's very one-sided and defensive.

killing 8k civilians is huge crime but one should not forget that before of it spirale of violence was accelerating

We will come to that ˇˇ

war in Yugoslavia was mainly cause Serbs not accepted fall and division of Yugoslavia into different countries

Uhm, mainly ''cause nobody wanted Milošević and Belgrade's centralism - which was worse and worse by time. We never wanted to separate, but to isolate from his pro-Serbian policy, demanding our own state under Confederation of Yugoslavia. Slovenians and Bosniaks demanded the same. Now, tell me Vilas, when they rejected that and used military / paramilitary force to take our land after inevitable separation .. well, I will put it this way: Nazis became the victims in Poland ? :rolleyes:

many sources say that reason for war was not only Serbian resistance against other nations to separate but also "Great Albania" Islamic extremism

What does "Great Albania" has to do with war in Bosnia & Herzegovina ? Not only that it was impossible, but it is a digusting lie. Bosniaks were just protecting their country - and their families. Heck, not only Bosniaks, but local Serbian population too used to fight Yugo People's Army and paramilitaries next to it. You probably want to mention the Kosovo war.

even mainstream politically corect media in my country say "we cannot call that only Serbs are bad and rest is innocent"

I remember you had mentioned something about Nazis and wrote "if someone attack me, and then i defend myself, then it's attacker's fault that he got killed/injured". I really dont want to search for that quote right now, but I am sure you remember you wrote it somewhere.

BTW about crimes from the Croatian side - we dont deny them. We arrested our criminals long time ago and they are in jail. Serbs, on other hand, deny crimes from the Serbian side, even when it's obvious it happened, and mostly shows their criminals as heroes which served the Serbia for good.

but from one side Serb resistance against other nations to have their state , from other side Mujaheddins kiling Serbs , plus WW2 remains (where local Muslims joined SS and were killing Serbs

It were the Chetniks who killed Bosniaks and Croats in Bosnia, so then Bosniaks and Croats demanded weapons from German authorities to defend themselves - what led to creation of the Handžar SS unit. The Serbs themselves (at least those who served in Chetniks, not a whole nation) are directly responsible for creation of that unit, AS WELL as for creation of Ustashi movement earlier. If you really want me to explain that to you in further - I will.

than Yugoslavia was created after WW1, than it lasted and WW2 happened (one side joined Hitler, second side who suffered in WW2 were... Serbs ), than it collapsed in 1990s

Yeah, one-sided. FPDR The Croats and Bosniaks suffered from the Serbs just like they suffered from them. Also, how the heck can someone 'revenge' for 40s crimes in 90s ? Ustashies were almost all killed after WW2 in Cross path, together with their families (Bleiburg - the ACTUAL worst crime after WW2), so these 'self-accelerated violence' jackasses were actually killing the Croats whose grandparents were partisans (that liberated conc. camps). :rolleyes2:

BTW what about "our" (well, I am not Ustashi nor my grandparents were one of them) 'self-accelerated violence excuse' ? We had to live in Serbian oppression since 1918-1941 (which was then replaced by Nazi-fascist oppression). So, we must not forget that Croats, Bosniaks and Slovenians that served to Nazi regime were just victims of self-accelerated violence started by Serbian oppression. Hmm, okay, whatever, but it doesnt make a god-damn excuse for the people that were slaughtered. There is no excuse for taking someone's life, other than that if your own is endangered by his actions.

We are all very familiar with what happened in WW2 and 90s, so there is no need to sell us warm water theories.

[vilas 473]

i was reading infos from few websites, if they present not true information - what can i do,

and what Kosovo has to it ? for me Yugoslavian war was one war on whole territory of former Yugoslavia, not dividing to nothern or southern - thus what i read on websites (even mainstream) about Albanian Islamists

and webistes say about Mujahedins and about cooperation of Muslims with SS , for us SS was main enemy so anyone who cooperated with SS for me is "enemy number one" than "enemy number 2" is "anyone who cooperated with NKVD"

when western media say A, than i look for opposite sites to find their stats, so i try to find between 2 sides any informations, also i read Serb information without knowing if they are true or not, i simply conect SS with the worst and Muslims there were in 13-rd SS Handshar , and part of them participated in crimes against my City during WW2 , for me SS = evil, NKVD = almost similar evil, less evil cause they not planned to gas chamber all my nation, for me it is hard to understand 13-rd SS division as "defeding themselves" cause such divisions from abroad were commiting crimes in my own city 1000 km away, for me every SS man is criminal, nothing more

i cannot judge which website is telling true and which lie, i try to connect informations to understand that region,

also for "Yugoslavian war" i mean all about this territory, not Bosnia or Croatia, but also Makedonia, Montenegro region

Edited July 10, 2015 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Vilas I know you have a beef with Islamists, I have too, but you seriously have to stop putting all the blame on Muslims whenever they are mentioned. Nobody denies that there were Jihadists in Bosnia and that Bosnian and Croatian troops commited war crimes, however the scale and purpose is very different from the Serbian warcrimes. Jihadists for example were very rare amongst the Bosniaks.

War crimes commited by Croatian and Bosnian troops were isolated cases conducted by a few crazy people.

Serbian war crimes were usually large scale, state sanctioned and organized. That is why Serbia denies them to this day and is unwilling to cooperate in their trial.

As for the historic reasons for the 90s war... well you simplified A LOT.

[Degman 73]

for me SS = evil, NKVD = almost similar evil, less evil cause they not planned to gas chamber all my nation, for me it is hard to understand 13-rd SS division as "defeding themselves" cause such divisions from abroad were commiting crimes in my own city 1000 km away, for me every SS man is criminal, nothing more

This is not an objective point of view. Truth is not something 'in the middle'. The truth is what happened. Also, 13th Mountain SS Division "The Handschar" was originally formed to defend local population in Bosnia (now I talk about Bosnian interests), but it was exploitet by German officers (German interests) and like slaves they were sent to fight against Yugo partisans, Red Army, etc and not only Chetniks. This is not what Bosniaks ever wanted, but what they were forced to do after being tricked.

Did you knew that "Handschar" division was the only SS division to create rebellion against Nazis and fascists ? Yes, they did it, as they were about to be sent to France, what they paid at cost of their lives.

[vilas 473]

This is not an objective point of view. Truth is not something 'in the middle'. The truth is what happened. Also, 13th Mountain SS Division "The Handschar" was originally formed to defend local population in Bosnia (now I talk about Bosnian interests), but it was exploitet by German officers (German interests) and like slaves they were sent to fight against Yugo partisans, Red Army, etc and not only Chetniks. This is not what Bosniaks ever wanted, but what they were forced to do after being tricked.

Did you knew that "Handschar" division was the only SS division to create rebellion against Nazis and fascists ? Yes, they did it, as they were about to be sent to France, what they paid at cost of their lives.

no , SS = pure evil,

SS foreign legions commited a lot of crimes on my territory in 1944, and i cannot agree that such legions were not just criminals if they were voluntary - not conscript, after WW2 capting anyone having SS tatoo meant death penalty, cause being in SS for us was punished only by one type of punishment and anyone who fought against SS - i rather see them as victims, with exception of Baltic states (attacked by USSR , different situation, plus conscripts), it is very hard to me to understand how anyone cooperating with Hitler cannot be evil side, also it is hard to me to connect side which fought against Third Reich as not victim (apart from NKVD of course)

Edited July 10, 2015 by vilas

[Degman 73]

As you said yourself, Vilas, nothing is black/white. 1940s were not 2000s. The most of people didn't even know what they fought for. Do you know that even Serbs were recruited in Croatian Home Guard (mobilized regular armed forces of the Independent State of Croatia) ? Here it was literally joining the army that came first into your village/town.

The people were uneducated, it was crisis and both sides were using propaganda. Nobody used to fight because they enjoyed pissing in the trench full of blood, but because they were brainwashed by various medias (radio, local government, etc) and on various ways. Also, Nazi Germany was no1 world's superpower in economy and military - what hungry soul would not fight alongside it to become like it ? (I am talking about these poor people from the Europe in these times, just waiting for some kind of revolution)

Germans offered organization, partnership and strenght in exchange for manpower. The New World Order that will finally be just great ! Now, even today some people buy that crap, so how can you call people from these times monsters because they were pathetic, uneducated and naive ?

Some people knew what was going on, others did not nor they would understand even if you explained it to them into details.

You see, my grand-grandmother was in concentration camp Jasenovac just because she was helping "terrorist partisans". My grand-grandfather was a partisan which used to be hungry for days without eating anything, not even stealing an apple from someone's yard (nor he did let anyone from his unit do the same). My grand-grandfather from my father's side was a Croatian Home Guard corporal (he was mobilized) and I barely know anything about him. He probably went throught many bullshit, as CHG troops were treated like dogs by Ustashi officers and they saw every kind of shit that one normal man is not supposed to.

However, I would never call all the Ustashies, Home Guards, Germans, Italians, partisans, Chetniks, etc. monsters in general, but only those who commited war crimes and if they had done it by their will (cos I cant blame someone if he was forced to do it - it's you or him).