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mistyronin

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Nobody is better, and 'might is right' rule is used by everybody. The difference is just in the amount depending on available power and resources. Unlike some East European guys say while trying to paint themselves as lambs under constant threat from ze evil Russia.

"Everyone does that" is the justification I hear all the time from people who steal, take bribes, violate traffic rules, use narcotics, make adulters...

But fact is, it's always not true. As I pointed above, the fact that there are hundreds of violence offences every day, does not give anyone moral right to sneak at you in the night and hit your head with a metal pipe just because he can.

(Although from your opinions expressed here, it looks like you think exactly that way)

And as with Russia's current politics - no one does THAT.

Edited by DarkWanderer

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Count how many people died from USSR, and that should be more than enough to see who's evil and who isn't.

How many people died because of european countries' colonial ambitions?

I guess we wont find a non evil govt on this planet.

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How many people died because of european countries' colonial ambitions?

I guess we wont find a non evil govt on this planet.

Indeed, but two wrongs don't count for a right. Stalinism itself accounts for 20 millions casualties, at the lowest estimate.

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more over - it is thinking "because America bombed Vietnam in 1960, we could attack Poland in 1920"

maybe in Russian mentality occupation of Poland from 1780s - 1918 was justified by USA attack on Vietnam in 1960s

Edited by vilas

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more over - it is thinking "because America bombed Vietnam in 1960, we could attack Poland in 1920"

maybe in Russian mentality occupation of Poland from 1780s - 1918 was justified by USA attack on Vietnam in 1960s

Actually, in the beginning of 1920 was the time when polish troops did start a bigger military offensive....they captured Minsk and Kiev. The clashes between both started already in 1919 and Poland did try to drive them out for their desired boarders and expand which was mainly todays area of Ukraine. This did happen short time after the Polish-Ukrainian war and the fight about Eastern-Galacia. In the same time Poland did fight against Lithuania.

Later in the same year, 1920, the Soviets did counter-attack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

Oh yes we all know how gladly Poland treated Red Army POWs in concentration camps after 1919-1921 war and performed very friendly step to weak Czechoslovakia and occupied Zaolzie region... Oh and for sure Polish troops were very kind to Jews at that times.

Yes! Indeed! USSR was so much better!

(that was sarcasm, yes)

A sensible toppic, a lot were part of the bolshevik movement and disproportional represented in leading positions.

Edited by oxmox

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It's quite hypocritical for an aggressor to ask for such things. I wonder if the Germans ever requested compensations of millions of their soldiers who where sent to GULAGs for punishment which many of them died from slave work, disease, malnutrition, beatings and executions. This issue is always played as an anti-Polish argument by Russian revisionists and you seem to take it for granted, like a pelican.

Sorry but Poland was not an aggressor, we didn't come to USSR to get these people. it was Russian "brilliant idea" to spread the communism up to the coasts of the Atlantic.

Secondly there was a both Pol-Rus commission of historical researches and that commission didn't find any signs of deliberate cruelty. Soviets were dying mostly because there wasn't enough facilities to house them all, no one expected that there will be so many of them. Camps were overcrowded and it wasn't hard for the disease to spread. Polish authorities didn't expect THAT amount of russian POV's and soldiers who have surrendered at first occasion - seeing that Poland isn't really like they were told.

All in all it's nothing compared to what Soviets did here in the war of 1920. For example a notorious Gaj-Chan leading the mounted red-cossacks was famous for killing Polish POW's, razing the villages. Over a thousand Polish POWs + another thousands of villagers murdered in a gruesome way, Russian bestiality at it's finest. Gaj Chan and his horse army, remember that.

Thirdly, despite historical explanations and research stating there was no genocide this argument is still used to relativize massacre of Katyn and comparing this act of genocide to a mortality in Polish POW camps for Soviets and thus blaming the Polish for planned extermination and such things. Use of this argument is constantly used by Russia's top nationalists and communists.

I don't exactly know, how it looked in Finland but few times I read about Finnish "death camps" for soviets, and there were similar words coming from the mouth of Russians that Finns were mistreating soviet POW's and exposed them to both harsh weather and sanitary conditions. Modern day Russian politicians and historians in their revisionist way of interpreting history expected luxurious conditions and best treatment in countries they were invading moments after the world took a small breath from the Great War. It takes a cheek to draw such accusations, preposterous.

Later in the same year, 1920, the Soviets did counter-attack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

Keep in mind - the goal was to help the communist Revolution in Germany and push further till the shores of the Atlantic. If if wasn't in 1920 you would probably live in some French or Deutsch Soviet Republic nowadays.

Little remembered in the West, the Battle of Warsaw was in fact one of the most significant land engagements of the 20th century. Strategically, it reversed an ideological onslaught that might otherwise have carried Soviet Communism into Western Europe in 1920 — and eventuality the consequences of which can only be imagined by posterity. Militarily, the sudden counterattack by which Pilsudski and his lieutenants split and routed the Bolshevik forces — themselves led by one of the enemy's most brilliant generals — deserves a place among the tactical masterpieces of history.

Edited by Sudayev

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These times just reborn Poland was desperatelly struggling to keep and strenghten own independence, trapped between hostile neighbours, while the Treaty of Versailles was a hotbed of the next World War hated so much by all, who lose, also those who lost stolen 123 years earlier Polish territory. Of course, no any comparison with facts, some are trying to compare with these events.

Movies not fitting Russia's history version are banned, including two Polish titles. Original.

Polish banned movies are "City 44" and "Rose". First due to (not) showing idle Red Army troops during Warsaw Uprising, second - due to shown cruelty of RA troops during "liberation" of former Eastern Prussia. Well, nothing unexpected in that. "Sacred liberators of Poland" are well remembered due to massive wave of murders, rapes and plundering on civilian population across Masuria, whole Pomerania etc. while so worshiped in Russia. It was said somewhere, so the MOST of the whole Pomerania female population was raped. Unbelieveable. Whole towns slaughtered. And they dare to be indignant about Polish resentment, "Night Wolves" treatment etc.

Only one of examples. Other towns shared same fate, known from stories of those, who was there during or after.

Just consider, Poles was forced to worship those bloody bandits by 50 years after these events - memorials, history lessons, naming buildings like schools with RA "heroes" etc. Sick.

Edited by Rydygier

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maybe SS-man who fallen from guard tower in Aushwitz and break leg also should ask compensation ;)

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Do you agree, morality/ethics of the given deed/choice isn't dependent on the other people's moral/ethical choices (morality of one man's deeds isn't/can't be a valid reference point for the assessment of the morality of another man's deeds)? As for me personally, we'll never understood each other with someone, who doesn't agree with that - difference on the most basic a priori assumptions/"dogma" beliefs level.

It is dependent. Especially in politics. We don't live in perfect world and even me realise that trying to be like saints is not an option. Especially if our neighbours are not saint at all and never were. We are not so dumb to keep calm and carry on while others do whatever they want. Attempt to be as good and friendly as possible resulted in support of terrorism and separatism within our borders in 90's and a number of economic agreements that were almost colonial for us. So please leave this fairytales about morality or ethics to the children, morality and ethics is not the best things to be used in relations between west and us.

more over - it is thinking "because America bombed Vietnam in 1960, we could attack Poland in 1920"

maybe in Russian mentality occupation of Poland from 1780s - 1918 was justified by USA attack on Vietnam in 1960s

Oh are you among those who can't forgive Russia for ruined Greater Poland "od morza do morza" imperial ambitions? I have already given the example of how your motherland behaves if any opportunity occures. No difference from so hated Soviet Union and Russia - neither in 20th century nor much earlier when Polish-Lithuanian troops captured Moscow and tried to establish their puppet tsar to rule the Russia as they want (but failed to do this and were kicked out of Russia).

---------- Post added at 02:25 ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 ----------

A sensible toppic, a lot were part of the bolshevik movement and disproportional represented in leading positions.

Especially until 50's. Here's a good articla with names and years (in Russian).

Jews were two notorious persons - most fanatic revolutioneer and supporter of world communist revolution Trotsky (Bronshtein) and one of those who ordered to kill emperor's family (together with Lenin) and organized red terror - Sverdlov.

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It is dependent. Especially in politics. We don't live in perfect world and even me realise that trying to be like saints is not an option.

OK, thanks for the answer. So you and I will never truly agree here no matter, what. Anyway that's why IMO all your argumentation here misses the point (and vice versa, I guess). A shame, but happens, still good to have a clarity. One thing to consider: beeing good doesn't exclude beeing wise. On the contrary - wisdom is a virtue. Maybe you misunderstood, what actually means to be good/in accord with conscience. Or what means to be wise. I'll not go deeper into this though, too offtopic.

Edited by Rydygier

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<Removed - waste of time anyway>

Edited by DarkWanderer

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Indeed, but two wrongs don't count for a right. Stalinism itself accounts for 20 millions casualties, at the lowest estimate.

Where do these numbers mean?

From the memoirs of Solzhenitsyn or Suvorov - Rezun?

You know that during "the bloody Stalin" population increased by 60 000 000 million.

And during the "friend of the US," Yeltsin was less than ten. Each year, Yeltsin treated the country as one million lives. And this is without war and repression, without buildings and development.

Who cared more about the country? That when someone rising or falling?

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Where do these numbers mean?

From the memoirs of Solzhenitsyn or Suvorov - Rezun?

You know that during "the bloody Stalin" population increased by 60 000 000 million.

And during the "friend of the US," Yeltsin was less than ten. Each year, Yeltsin treated the country as one million lives. And this is without war and repression, without buildings and development.

Who cared more about the country? That when someone rising or falling?

Wow, you really think Stalin cared about Russia? Stalin cared about Stalin, get out of dreamland.

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I'm not sure where it fits better here or in the ISIS thread, I guess as the subject affects Russia the most, I'll post here:

(Defense One) The Moscow Migrant Workers That Are Now ISIS Foot Soldiers

Fighters from the world’s largest terrorist group, the Islamic State of Syria and Lebanon (ISIL), have threatened to open a new front, this time in Central Asia. In April 2015, in the Tajikistani capital Dushanbe, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov spoke of the threat of an invasion of Tajikistan by ISIL, which could, in turn, threaten Russia.

Russia promised the country support, and is planning to send 70 billion rubles ($1.3 billion) for weapons and to secure the border with Afghanistan. Meduza correspondent Daniil Turovsky set off to Tajikistan and found that the majority of new fighters in the Islamic State are being recruited by “Chechen groups†from migrants working at Moscow’s construction sites. As a result of their efforts, 2,000 to 4,000 Central Asian migrants have already departed for Syria.

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Croatian press (wich is often full of bullshit so take this with a grain of salt) is saying that the military detected a submarine of unknown origin south of Dubrovnik (still outside of Croatian waters). They suspect it might be of Russian origin, especially since Russia and China are peparing joint naval excercises in the Mediterranean Sea sea in wich Montenegro will participate. Montenegro is to receive a new Warschaw class submarine from Russia soon.

The boat was detected by Sonar arrays and was for a time even cruising along at periscope depht. The Croatian navy destroyer fleet (wich in part consists of destroyers bought in Finnland) should be ready for a subhunt if an unknown sub is stupid enough to enter Croatian waters.

Really, that would be very stupid, shallow waters, many islands that limit movement etc. What goes into that maze of islands is simply fucked if it gets noticed.

http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/Hrvatska/tabid/66/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/284678/Default.aspx

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to be objective and show 2 sides of coin:

http://historia.wp.pl/title,Tajemnice-PRL-Stalin-przesadzil-o-przekazaniu-Szczecina-Polsce,wid,17519836,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=114d38

US and UK was against giving Poland more territory after WW2, Stalin was for giving to PL more territory after WW2,

in case of WW2 truth is that Poland was backstabbed by USSR but also Poland was betrayed by UK and France - which broke guarantees and treaties (similar to Ukrainian guarantees after Ukraine signed pact destroying nuclear weapons they had)

WW2 was starting from : German attack on Poland, than France and UK betraying, than USSR attack, many western countries had tens of thousands of SS volunteers (Ukrainian volunteers were half of volunteers from Benelux, France had the same number of SS volunteers as Ukrainians which we damn it for, Muslims from different countries were biggest number of non-German volunteers to fight with Jews, mostly from Kaukas region and from Yugoslavian region, during Warsaw Uprising in 1944 we fought in my city with... Muslim SS legion too, cause units sent against my city and grandfathers of my neighbors were Ukrainians, Muslims, RONA, and German units ) , they were giving Jews to holocaust while Poles were protecting Jews in biggest numbers and had death penalty for helping Jew (noone other in Europe had death penalty for helping Jews, only Poland had it from Third Reich administration, if you gave a piece of bread to Jew, your whole family was executed by SS, because such punishment was only punishment in General Government, plus Polish intel informed Churchill about death camps and Churchill didn't care about it ),

WW2 coin has 2 sides

Edited by vilas

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You only forget that France and UK went to war because Germany attacked Poland. My country was then occupied for the rest of the war. About French Waffen SS, lot's of them were called "malgré nous", because they were enrolled by force, coming from Alsace and Moselle, considered as Germany by the Nazis. So you shouldn't jump on easy conclusion so quickly.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War

google translate this;

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1342,title,Dlaczego-Anglia-i-Francja-zdradzily-Polske,wid,13740581,wiadomosc.html

also about UK loans to Poland in 1939

http://www.forbes.pl/porwane-zloto-ii-rp-co-sie-stalo-z-polskim-zlotem-,artykuly,135909,1,1.html

about Polish gold reservers from our banks that disappeared in first weeks of war

Edited by vilas

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than how to call breaking guarantees ? (reminds Ukraine situation)

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Well... From a technical point a view both UK & France did what they were obliged to, but If someone considers the Phoney War as a proper thing in that situation...

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Well... From a technical point a view both UK & France did what they were obliged to, but If someone considers the Phoney War as a proper thing in that situation...

Nah, it was a major strategical error, which leaded to the defeat. That's probably easy to judge now, it was probably different at that time, where the defensive strategy was preferred. Some, like De Gaulle, were against that poor strategy (hiding behind the Maginot line), but all in all i can't call that a betrayal.

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problem is that WW2 problems remain till present day - the most saddening for people living on areas which previously were German - why ? cause communists NEVER allowed property law,

in capitalist states there is thing which is holy - the property,

in communist countries (many of them) there was no such thing as property of land, house, flat,

when Poland was pushed by Stalin to German lands, those German homes, lands were given to Poles without law of property ,

those people get acts of "century usage" which means they are legally hired for 99 years, (such legal form is not known in capitalist states , it is called "użytkowanie wieczyste" - century usage, 99 years use-license) ,

and those people who live there may face Germans returning with lawyers for land, house, building (it is EU, thats why all my family voted against join to EU) - it can start real horror and a looooooooooooooooooooot of national tensions , of course guilty are as usual - commies and their politics , they took away property of many people in 40s-50s, than they escaped to USSR or Israel in 1968 (40% of communist administration officers were Jews, 40% were Poles, 20% Russians in Stalin era here, in 1956 they were thrown away from leading power by nationalistic commies, than in 1968 they were thrown away from Poland) and now we have mess because of what they did after 1945 till 1956 , because nowadays taxpayers would have to pay for what our enemies did 67 years ago, those who,

WW2 made a lot of mess for which we may still pay in future

it was Stalin decision to move Polish borders (and property of Germans) now this all influence our life still i just cannot imagine scene when to family who has 500 EURO salary comes German owner with lawyer saying "this home is my" , i just cannot imagine what will happen, people will be slaughtering each other again

WW2 still has active consequences here, thats why for us this 70 years parade means nothing, cause all problems remained, USSR decision still influence our life here,

Edited by vilas

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Nah, it was a major strategical error, which leaded to the defeat. That's probably easy to judge now, it was probably different at that time, where the defensive strategy was preferred. Some, like De Gaulle, were against that poor strategy (hiding behind the Maginot line), but all in all i can't call that a betrayal.

It's mostly because of the leaders that lacked of determination and decisiveness, still grounded and thinking "The First War" way. So if we have Maginot Line and La Manche - we are safe. Hitler went way ahead and played his way took western Europe in a year.

This whole situation perfectly reflects in the front-lines of WW2 when group of 80 German paratroopers took the whole Fort Eben Emael manned by more than a thousand soldiers with use smart tactics and modern technology ;)

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You know that during "the bloody Stalin" population increased by 60 000 000 million.

And during the "friend of the US," Yeltsin was less than ten. Each year, Yeltsin treated the country as one million lives. And this is without war and repression, without buildings and development.

Listen up, you fecking idiot. Why don't you read reports from the NKVD (those that were put into public domain before Putin closed them again). Your precious Stalin ALLOWED Germany to attack the Soviet Union on the 22nd June. He received reports from Luftwaffe agent that Germany was planning to attack on that date, what was Stalin's response? "This informant can go feck himself", literally. Stalin wasn't even accepting the fact that Germany attacked until they reached Minsk.

During "friends of North Korea and Iran" Putin's rule, Russian population decreased by 5 million. For 10 years.

During Yeltsin's rule, Russian population decreased by 1.5 million.

Do you see the difference?

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