Russia General

[Sub-Human 10]

-blatant nationalist propaganda; the result is that all the countries infected with it failed to develop well functioning economy and society and all the formers fighters for freedom that shouted 'bag-trainstation-Russia' rush to former occupants and ask for any work possible.

-it's always easier to blame some other outside for all the troubles. Sure thing, it is the Russia who sold and destroyed almost all industry, steals all the money from the budget etc. It's very hard to admit that nationalism and populistic slogans alone are not enough to build the prosperous country. That's why many people who weak enough to admit own faults blame damned Russia for all the bad happening in their life. Just like German officials blamed Jews and earlier Europeans blamed witches and Satan.

Finland. Russia did not get to occupy this country.

Do I need to give you HDI, average wage, education, corruption, healthcare, crime ranks comparison? Or would you rather not embarrass yourself?

Also, Timchenko, a vocal Putler supporter, has his money saved in that little country that Russia did not occupy. He even has a little house (little by Putin standards). Do I need to continue?

Edited February 28, 2015 by Sub-Human

[Tonci87 163]

Forced Russification as in: The primary language of the state had to be russian even if people spoke different language? Mandatory teaching of Russian in school? Supression of the catholic church?

[vilas 477]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Dluga_15_kosciol_01.jpg/800px-Dluga_15_kosciol_01.jpg what image shows ? catholic church turned into orthodox and ... Russian alphabet letter name of shop near by (and look before : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Kosciol_Pijarow.jpg )

another example

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Pa%C5%82acStaszica.jpg/1920px-Pa%C5%82acStaszica.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietization_of_the_Baltic_states

this is what Putin propaganda made with Russians - they do not even know propper history but only propaganda

Forced Russification? Where? Care to prove with reliable source?

sad to read such things from educated people, lack of basic historical knowledge

moreover a lot of post-WW2 "Polish army" generals were... Soviet citizens, RUssians who even did not know Polish language, they were getting Polish uniform, rank of General and they were officers during Stalin era here

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Radzieccy_oficerowie_w_ludowym_Wojsku_Polskim

list from wiki, high ranked officers of Soviet Union which after 1945 were "Polish" army officers, they were not even speaking my language, but they were ordering military departments and even schools,

cause i know one military academy where all bosses came from Moscow in 1950-1960s , i personally worked with son of one of them, he knew history, guy was born in 1947 in Moscow, his parents were born in 1920 in Moscow, but in 1951 his father came to Poland to became Polish colonel and lead logistics in military area as a boss of logistics (for example)

Edited February 28, 2015 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

o my god... so you do not know we were forced to learn Russian language in schools ? although Poland was not in USSR but you could not refuse to learn Russian language in school , it was mandatory, why do you think i know Russian ? because it was mandatory in school and i am from socialist era born (1978)

Well, since USSR English, German and French are mandatory school subjects. In most schools only two of them are learned, in some even all three. So, according to your logic, was USSR germanised? Despite you had some foreign language in school (BTW did it harm to you in any way?) you hadn't have to use it mandatory in any way of your life. And the fact you had Russian language studied does not surprise - you've learnt it just for the same reasons western Europeans often study English. Many of economical and political blocs has one main language for use. Often it's language of largest members.

you do not know that our churches were turned into orthodox ones in XIX century ?

you do not know that Poland was divided in ca 1780 and was occupied by Russian Empire (and Germany) till 1918 ?

I also know that Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was divided not only by Russian Empire but also by Germany (at that time Prussia) and Austria. Why don't I see any anger adressed to Germans or Austrians?

Speaking about religion tensions, officially Orthodox church was main. Officially. De-facto, either during Empire or during USSR times people who were really religious had an abilities to follow their way of life. Despite leading atheist ideology I was turned to Orthodox after birth. So as my parents and grandparents. And none of them were prosecuted for it. Maybe particularly Poles were punished for being Catholics but here situation wasn't so strict. As one Russian proverb says, "severity of laws is compensated by non-execution of them".

people were forced to use Russian language, churches were rebuild from Catholic to Orthodox , even in 1905 when Russian Tsar made biggest Orthodox temple in my city ? noone here was Orthodox except Russian army officers occupying us, so they ruined our buildings and set Orthodox temples

https://wycieczkinakresy.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/sobc3b3r-aleksandra-newskiego-warszawa.jpg

this is how my town looked in 1915, and this was first thing we deleted in 1920s

When you become a part of other state, you have to use its official language. Simple. Just like parts of Poland taken by Austria and Germany had to use their language in official affairs.

BTW if you look at the times happened earlier you'll see that during Polish intervention Orthodox culture had faced serious troubles caused by Catholics. So that's common practice - establishing own culture in dominated regions. When Poland had enough might to do it - it did. When had not... well, sorry, folks:D

[Tonci87 163]

I´m done arguing with you because you obviously don´t want to see/know/accept some things. Keep on living in denial. If you want to change somethign go and walk into a polish or czech bar and tell everyone that they had it really good under Russian rule. You might learn a few lessons then.

[spooky lynx 73]

I´m done arguing with you because you obviously don´t want to see/know/accept some things. Keep on living in denial. If you want to change somethign go and walk into a polish or czech bar and tell everyone that they had it really good under Russian rule. You might learn a few lessons then.

I suppose any Romanian/Hungarian/Slovak folk who say that their armies hadn't done anything bad on our soil during WW2 would get some lesson too. And if any Czech woud moan, I'd remind him about all that huge amount of weapons produced by polite workers of Czech industry and used by Wehrmacht. The main lesson I've learnt here is that some nations see nothing disturbing when it comes to agression against us. And if they lose - they start moaning about occupations and other stuff. Forgetting their own past. For example forgetting Polish agression against Czechoslovakia when the latter was attacked by Germany. And the only thing preventing them for becoming agressors themselves is only current weakness of their states. When Poland was mighty enough it happily drove its army against Russia to get some fancy things while Russian state was weak. Some time after the history was repeated. But just the opposite way.

[orcinus 121]

So that's common practice - establishing own culture in dominated regions. When Poland had enough might to do it - it did. When had not... well, sorry, folks:D

So might is right in your view? I'm sure Putin, the Pentagon, IS, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc. ad nauseam, would agree with you.

I do not.

[spooky lynx 73]

So might is right in your view? I'm sure Putin, the Pentagon, IS, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc. ad nauseam, would agree with you.

I do not.

Unfortunately humans aren't all as Bhuddist monks. So I admit might is right. Just like British Empire hadn't got its prosperity due to peace and hadn't become the state where sun does not set due to other land's referendums.

[orcinus 121]

Unfortunately humans aren't all as Bhuddist monks. So I admit might is right. Just like British Empire hadn't got its prosperity due to peace and hadn't become the state where sun does not set due to other land's referendums.

The sun pretty much set on the British Empire half a century and more ago and no-one apart from a few right-wing nuts wants it back. Putin, on the other hand, does seem to want to re-establish the old Soviet empire, presumably with himself as Emperor.

One does not have to be a Bhuddist monk to reject the notion that might = right. As a reductio ad absurdum that's pretty feeble.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The sun pretty much set on the British Empire half a century and more ago and no-one apart from a few right-wing nuts wants it back. Putin, on the other hand, does seem to want to re-establish the old Soviet empire, presumably with himself as Emperor.

One does not have to be a Bhuddist monk to reject the notion that might = right. As a reductio ad absurdum that's pretty feeble.

Indeed. And in fact, the way Russia behaves today shows how weak it is, not how strong. Being forced to use ultra nationalist wishful thinking such as Novorossia, or fairy tales such as Western fascists threatening Russia, in order to justify its neighbours destabilization is just pathetic.

Putin's Russia simply shows how unable it is to become a modern and economically developed country, which could peacefully grow its influence worldwide.

[oxmox 73]

Putin, on the other hand, does seem to want to re-establish the old Soviet empire, presumably with himself as Emperor.

Yeah and when you go back and look at the root for such a definition in the media and politics, actually the idea of the Eurasien Economic Union (EEU) which reminds on the EU, you see how economical competition gets suddenly demonized. Thats why you dont hear much about the Eurasian Economic Union but rather about an alleged re-establishment of the old Soviet Empire.

Edited February 28, 2015 by oxmox

[spooky lynx 73]

ultra nationalist wishful thinking such as Novorossia

Ehm... Would you be so kind and prove that Novorossia is somehow connected with nationalism? Especially when forces fighting for it include many nationalities and no proclamations made by Novorossian (both DPR and LPR) authorities recently contain any nationalistic idea.

[mistyronin 1181]

Forced Russification? Where? Care to prove with reliable source?

So bilingual school studying, road signs, official papers, quotas for nations in main univercities (yes, there was a mandatory number of non-Russian students there so sometimes they became students no matter of their real knowledge), lots of cultural national events, giant amount of money spent on building every kind of infrastructure in national republics (that's why average small city somewhere in Georgia or Uzbekistan looked much better than the same in RSFSR) - is it occupation and forced Russification? Vilas, I don't know what did you read or see but I lived in that country and seen by myself what were national relations.

Even before the USSR...

Russification of Finland

---------- Post added at 22:20 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ----------

Ehm... Would you be so kind and prove that Novorossia is somehow connected with nationalism? Especially when forces fighting for it include many nationalities and no proclamations made by Novorossian (both DPR and LPR) authorities recently contain any nationalistic idea.

It's in all pro-Russian speeches since the beginning, the idea of a Russian nationalism; and also the ideal of Russian supremacy over all the Slavic countries ( after all the first "rebel" leaders where from the Moscow area and members of the FSB ).

You just need to check what flags and symbols are displayed ( Saint George ribbons, the Russian Imperial Eagle, Russian flags, etc. ).

Even the imperialistic name Novorossiyan is a good example.

Putin's Russia simply shows how unable it is to become a modern and economically developed country, which could peacefully grow its influence worldwide.

That's the main difference between a rising power like P.R. of China and the decadency of Russia.

Sometimes I think that in reality Putin is a CIA agent payed to destroy Russia, because no real Russian would want to harm Russia as much as he does.

Edited February 28, 2015 by MistyRonin

[guyfawkestom 60]

It's in all pro-Russian speeches since the beginning, the idea of a Russian nationalism; and also the ideal of Russian supremacy over all the Slavic countries ( after all the first "rebel" leaders where from the Moscow area and members of the FSB ).

You just need to check what flags and symbols are displayed ( Saint George ribbons, the Russian Imperial Eagle, Russian flags, etc. ).

Even the imperialistic name Novorossiyan is a good example.

That's the main difference between a rising power like P.R. of China and the decadency of Russia.

Sometimes I think that in reality Putin is a CIA agent payed to destroy Russia, because no real Russian would want to harm Russia as much as he does.

Fullly agree with this view. Novorussia is the same concept as Milosevic great Serbia. Which is basically the same primitive concept as the lebensraum. Would not be surprised to hear about some kind of ethnic cleansing by The Chedaki terrorists of Luhansk and Donetsk. Will probably never know since free press will not be able to access these "republics"

[oxmox 73]

@Spooky

Well the term Novorussia goes back to the Russian Empire until the collaps in 1917, so how does this definition fits suddenly into these days.

Edited March 1, 2015 by oxmox

[carlostex 38]

A friend of mine from Latvia told me that once she asked a lady (the lady was around 60 to 70yo) if she could tell her what time it was. The lady answered her in Russian: "How dare you speak to me in Latvian?"

I know this sounds like a single isolated case, but it seems that some older folks still have difficulty to accept the modern era.

[oxmox 73]

Fullly agree with this view. Novorussia is the same concept as Milosevic great Serbia. Which is basically the same primitive concept as the lebensraum. Would not be surprised to hear about some kind of ethnic cleansing by The Chedaki terrorists of Luhansk and Donetsk. Will probably never know since free press will not be able to access these "republics"

Yeah, russian nationalism exist in the east Ukraine, amongs seperatists and nationalism exist in the west Ukraine. A higher percentage of nationalists amongs the volunteer fighters from Russia are highly likely. Around 25 million ethnic russians are living outside of russians boarders, the reason lies in the fall of the Sovjetunion. This is not an easy legacy.

Milosevic had a dream and actually plan to unite all Serbian People into one country, he did act wheras Russia in the case of the Ukraine is reacting to certain circumstances which were not taken into account. Isnt it escessive to think that Russia has the aim or even the options to unite all within the same boarders.

Actually the term Lebensraum refers to Friedrich Ratzel, a precurser of german geopolitics. He got influenced and encouraged by the US-American "Manifest Destiny", the territorial expansion of the USA. By the way, the Manifest Destiny is probably the reason why the US until now are proselytizers, more evangelical in their promotion of their political positions in form of freedom & democracy and sometimes used as an excuse to reach their geopolitcal interests. Ratzel´s thoughts appeared short time after Germany was founded and suddenly a young but economical powerful country was looking for their own possible geoplitical options like other imperial powers in this time. The National Socialists did later exploit this term for their own geopolitical aims mixed with racial ideology and based on the Generalplan Ost.

Isnt it quiete bold to assume that nationalism in the east Ukraine with the support of the Kremlin is defined like the NS-Ideology. I cant imagine we would not know if ethnic cleansing would happen in the eastern region, and by the way the free press which can not enter these republics are almost daily live on site, never seen the posted vice news, channel 4 media reports, did you never saw reports on your countries TV channel or heard about hundreds of other international Journalists in these regions ? I really wonder.

[sudayev 27]

moved to http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?189283-Boris-Nemtsov-Anti-Putinist-Shot-and-Killed&p=2891510&viewfull=1#post2891510

Edited March 2, 2015 by Sudayev

[Dwarden 1125]

I suppose any Romanian/Hungarian/Slovak folk who say that their armies hadn't done anything bad on our soil during WW2 would get some lesson too. And if any Czech woud moan, I'd remind him about all that huge amount of weapons produced by polite workers of Czech industry and used by Wehrmacht. The main lesson I've learnt here is that some nations see nothing disturbing when it comes to agression against us. And if they lose - they start moaning about occupations and other stuff. Forgetting their own past. For example forgetting Polish agression against Czechoslovakia when the latter was attacked by Germany. And the only thing preventing them for becoming agressors themselves is only current weakness of their states. When Poland was mighty enough it happily drove its army against Russia to get some fancy things while Russian state was weak. Some time after the history was repeated. But just the opposite way.

also you missed the point where CSR was occupied and any resistance was crushed with death sentence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II#Numbers

I suggest you note those 350k forced to work in Germany under occupation

also it was Soviet Russia/USSR who was aggressor, multiple times in 20th century against the states of Poles , Czechs , Ukrainians, Baltic and Finland etc.

so please stop posting here propaganda (it's quite outrageous considering my family suffered losses to SS (so called 1st resistance fighters))

[oxmox 73]

also it was Soviet Russia/USSR who was aggressor, multiple times in 20th century against the states of Poles , Czechs , Ukrainians, Baltic and Finland etc.

There is no doubt about the foreign politics of expansion by the Sovietunion and thats the general view, even more conflicts did happen.

But military aggressions of other nations against the Soviet Union, especially after World War 1 in a phase when Russia was weakened due to the Revolution, did happen aswell multiple times. Just some events which are interesting to read about which are maybe not so well known.

Allied Invasion of Russia/Allied Expedition Forces 1918-22

The Allied intervention was a multi-national military expedition launched during the Russian Civil War in 1918. After winning World War I, the Allies militarily backed the anti-Bolshevik White forces in Russia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

Japanese/Allied Assault in Siberia 1918-1922

The Siberian Intervention, or the Siberian Expedition, of 1918–1922 was the dispatch of troops of the Entente powers to the Russian Maritime Provinces as part of a larger effort by the western powers and Japan to support White Russian forces against the Bolshevik Red Army during the Russian Civil War. The Imperial Japanese Army continued to occupy Siberia even after other Allied forces had withdrawn in 1920.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Intervention

Greater Finland-Heimosodat-Finnish Eastern Military Campaign 1919-1920

Assault with mostly volunteer Fighters on the weakened Russia to unite finnish people within a Greater Finland. It did fail because people inside Russia were not keen about beeing a part of a Greater Finland.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnische_Ostkriegsz%C3%BCge_1918%E2%80%931920

Poland

Józef Piłsudski and his Intermarium plans.

Intermarium, was a plan, pursued after World War I by Polish leader Józef Piłsudski, for a federation, under Poland's aegis, of Central and Eastern European countries.

It was more or less a project for the restoration of the United Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarium

Polish–Lithuanian War 1918-1919

Assault on Lithuanian as a part of the Polish-Soviet War. The Polish–Lithuanian War was an armed conflict between newly independent Lithuania and Poland in the aftermath of World War I. The coup against the Luithuanian Government did fail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_War

Polish–Soviet War 1919-1921

it was an armed conflict that pitted Soviet Russia and Soviet Ukraine against the Second Polish Republic and the Ukrainian People's Republic over the control of an area equivalent to today's Ukraine and parts of modern-day Belarus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War#Aftermath

Poland's Chief of State, Józef Piłsudski, felt the time was right to expand Polish borders as far east as feasible, to be followed by a Polish-led Intermarium federation of East-Central European states as a bulwark against the re-emergence of German and Russian imperialisms.

Edited March 3, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The whistleblower Edward Snowden rather go to the US to be judged and probably in prison than keep living freely in Russia...

( Russia beyond the headlines ) Snowden would like to go home, says his lawyer

( RT ) Snowden ready to go to US if he gets fair trial - whistleblower's lawyer

"Edward Snowden is ready to return to the US, but on the condition that he be given guarantees to receive a fair and impartial trial," Kucherena told journalists on Tuesday, as cited by TASS.

The lawyer has said he received a letter from the US attorney-general promising no capital punishment for Snowden should he return to America.

[orcinus 121]

so please stop posting here propaganda (it's quite outrageous considering my family suffered losses to SS (so called 1st resistance fighters))

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This.

[vilas 477]

Oxmox, we get independence finally after over 120 years of German and Russian ocupation in 1918 and you seem to not understand Polish-Russian history which is similar to Polish-German one , it was USSR who was agressor, cause it was Russia who occupied us, than comunists wanted to take back our independence and set us as 18th comunist republic of USSR led from Moscow, in 1920 Poland stopped cancer of communism swimming from Moscow to west,

if not brave (back than) patriotic nation led by Piłdsudzki, than we would be like Belarus or worse, and whole central europe would be starving kolhoz even today cause communism would spread and turned us into kolhoz in whole europe with NKVD control, so it was not agression against poor Russia, but it was taking back what was taken from us by Russian occupant 120 years earlier

the same with Finland , they were occupied by Russia and when they get independence they fought for their lands with imperialistic occupant

Edited March 3, 2015 by vilas

[oxmox 73]

Oxmox, we get independence finally after over 120 years of German and Russian ocupation in 1918 and you seem to not understand Polish-Russian history which is similar to Polish-German one , it was USSR who was agressor, cause it was Russia who occupied us, than comunists wanted to take back our independence and set us as 18th comunist republic of USSR led from Moscow, in 1920 Poland stopped cancer of communism swimming from Moscow to west,

if not brave (back than) patriotic nation led by Piłdsudzki, than we would be like Belarus or worse, and whole central europe would be starving kolhoz even today cause communism would spread and turned us into kolhoz in whole europe with NKVD control, so it was not agression against poor Russia, but it was taking back what was taken from us by Russian occupant 120 years earlier

the same with Finland , they were occupied by Russia and when they get independence they fought for their lands with imperialistic occupant

Its really complicated and with a lot of detailed informations, but some infos to add .......

I understand your view on the history of Poland and about the bolshevik revolution, conflicts & interventions in this time were aswell characterized by own interests, expansion plans and nationalism, this should not be put under a blanket.

The model of the east boarders of Poland for Pilsutski was actually the polish-lithuanian boarderline like it did exist in the middle age and early modern era.

After the peace conference in 1919/20 the question about the east boarder of Poland did still exist and the Soviet Union did decline to transfer the former polish territories of Belarus and Ukraine to Poland. The Soviet Union itself was also thinking about his own influence on Poland with its "world revolution".

--> On the 21th April 1920, Pilsutski and the ukrainian chief of state Petljura did negotiate an offensive pact, which would award the territories East Galicia and western Volhynia to Poland. The Ukraine should get the right Dnejpr riverside and the possibility of a confederation between Poland and the Ukraine was targeted.

On the 26th April 1920, the unified polish and ukrainian troops did start the attack on the Red Army and pushed to Kiev.

The counter offensive did repulse the troops and the Red Army was that succesful that they were standing close to Warsawa, in August the Red Army could be pushed back - the 15th August is also known as the "Miracle of the Vistula". The conflict did end with the peace of Riga in 1921 and the defined boarders between Poland and the Soviet Union did exist until the outbrake of World War 2.

Finland got his independance already in 1917.

This process was accompanied by severe internal conflicts which did lead to the finnish Civil War, between the "Reds" supported by the Bolsheviks and the "Whites" which did shatter the rebellion in 1918. On both sides were mainly Finns.

Carl Gustav Emil Mannerheim was one of the big proponents of the idea of a "Greater Finland" which did arise already in the 19th century, it wasnt only about nationalism and the question of East Karelia, it was aswell a military question about the defence of the young country to secure the long east boarders against a new strengthened Russia/Soviet Union.

The idea of a Greater Finland and to unite the people of East Karelia and therefore the Eastern Military Campaign in 1919-1920 inside the Soviet Union, which was rather not an official military campaign but supported mainly by volunteers, did fail because there was no backing by the people inside the Soviet Union to join a Greater Finland.

The Viena expedition was a military expedition in March 1918 by Finnish volunteer forces to annex White Karelia (Vienan Karjala) from Bolshevist Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viena_expedition

Another example: Aunus expedition

Earlier attempts in 1918 to Petsamo and White Karelia (Viena expedition) had failed, partly due to a passive attitude of the Karelians.

-> Later the British occupied White Karelia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunus_expedition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Intervention

--->> In general, the german offensive in 1918 did lead to the collapse of the defence of Russian Soviet Union and forced the bolshevistic Russia to sign the treaty of Brest-Litowsk, not to mention the chaos caused by the Revolution inside the country. The general weakness of Russia did lead to military interventions of former nations and members of the Entente.

source: http://wwwg.uni-klu.ac.at/eeo/Pilsudski_Ukraine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelia

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnische_Ostkriegsz%C3%BCge_1918%E2%80%931920

Edited March 3, 2015 by oxmox

[vilas 477]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1025895,title,Rosyjska-telewizja-Ukraina-przygotowuje-banknoty-z-wizerunkiem-Hitlera,wid,17308115,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=114718

Russian propaganda claims that Ukrainians are printing money with Hitler