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Kasten

Weapon Sway Inaccurate

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I would like to bring the issue of weapon sway to the table, please know before judging, I am an VERY active shooter and practice a lot! I have loved Arma for years and years now because there is not a game like it. The mod Community is fantastic as well. So I hope this will be taken as Constructive Criticism for BIS and may lead to more realism weapon handling.

Can we PLEASE remove/correct weapons sway in the game. Its unrealistic, and completely unnatural. I've been shooting AR platform rifles, SBR to the standard AR-15 for many years with and without optics, even have the RCO/or Leupold HAMR, ARCO/ ELCAN Specter DR as its real name is on my AR. Under 0 Circumstances have I ever had the swing/ wobble/ 12 liter of vodka sway feature that is in ARMA 3 currently. This game is based around characters that are combat operators, not children that can't hold a rifle. Theses are trained professionals that have been trained in stress shooting from years, Range or Combat. The only time I have experienced wobble (real life) is after I have held my rifle in standing shooting position for loooong periods of time, and fatigue starts to take effect after I loss stamina. Even when I'm looking thru my optic my head does not wobble around like I have Parkinson's disease (little Harsh, but completely true) when I'm looking down a rifle. Arma has really bad over swing on the rifles like they have a 10 lb weight attached to the front and a crazy amount of circular drift, not present in the real world.

When shooting a rifle, it's firmly pressed against your shoulder, and your cheek is against the stock which prevents wobble, and promotes accuracy for fast target alignment. With your cheek against the stock, where ever the scope goes your eye goes with it, head wobble or drift doesnt exist because its aligned looking thru the optic. Even when you look around with your head your rifle is fixed in a forward shooting position, only your head turns a bit, when you return your head back forward it natural aligns back with the scope thru proper alignment and muscle memory. Therefore no wobble. The only time I have had wobble is when doing stress shooting and training with law enforcement (Civilian to U.S. Marshals), my adrenaline is flowing and heart is racing, I wobble a little but not like in Arma. The stock of the rifle should always be solid in the shoulder of the character, with minimal sway up front as proper firing uses a pull/push to target method, not swing. The Mag well seems to be the main swivel position while looking into the optic instead of the shoulder, as the front and rear of the rifle would have be be moving, to cause this wobble.

I do like the idea of the 3D scope for realism purposes but it really needs to be fixed as its unrealistic. When looking thru a optic a players eye should be in prefect alignment with the scope not wobbling or having a circular drift, if a player turns there head, it should snap back in place once the head is returned back to center and should be dead on due to muscle memory. If a player stays in this position for to long then you can do a little bit of weapon wobble as a player would lose stamina, from holding that position for too long.

I hope this doesn't come as I'm complaining, as I doing it for improved game play and accuracy stand point for all players Novice to Hard Core.

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I think the reason they have to make the sway so extreme is to compensate for the fact that we only have 2D control over the weapon.

You're a trained shooter so you will know that keeping your weapon stable isn't just about holding the crosshair on the target, it has to do with more than just up/down and left/right. There is a 3D aspect to weapon handling that we can't mimic in a video game, and so BI makes the weapon sway more intense to make accurate shooting harder to master.

And there are other factors too. I am moderately trained in using longer range rifles with higher-magnification optics. In game, you just press a "hold breath" button to stabilize your view, but in real life it's far more complicated then that, managing your heartbeat, etc. So they have to compensate for these things in other ways, meaning the sway might seem a bit unnatural.

Once the marksman DLC comes we should be able to rest your weapons on things which will make stable shooting a lot easier.

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The only time I have had wobble is when doing stress shooting and training with law enforcement (Civilian to U.S. Marshals), my adrenaline is flowing and heart is racing, I wobble a little but not like in Arma.

I think stress shooting is what ARMA is trying to emulate.

My guess is that you need to analyze how you are moving and playing the game. Your shooting experience may not relate directly to how you are managing yourself in game. Shooting under high stress after running around with heavy loads... Take a good look at what you are doing in game and try ti replicate it in real life.

I've done it, and ARMA feels pretty accurate to me in that respect. I remember having a hard time on my first few times out of the wire because my heartbeat was so strong it was pulling my sights off-target on every beat. I also remember being really annoyed when the ARMY changed the weapons qualification, which was already a very stressful event, to include kneeling. My weapon swayed so hard I had to time the trigger pull to compensate for the sway.

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Sway is completely fine within the contexts of a video game.

The end result is fantastic people in game have accuracy that More closely mimics real life.

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I would like to bring the issue of weapon sway to the table, please know before judging, I am an VERY active shooter and practice a lot! I have loved Arma for years and years now because there is not a game like it. The mod Community is fantastic as well. So I hope this will be taken as Constructive Criticism for BIS and may lead to more realism weapon handling.

Can we PLEASE remove/correct weapons sway in the game. Its unrealistic, and completely unnatural. I've been shooting AR platform rifles, SBR to the standard AR-15 for many years with and without optics, even have the RCO/or Leupold HAMR, ARCO/ ELCAN Specter DR as its real name is on my AR. Under 0 Circumstances have I ever had the swing/ wobble/ 12 liter of vodka sway feature that is in ARMA 3 currently. This game is based around characters that are combat operators, not children that can't hold a rifle. Theses are trained professionals that have been trained in stress shooting from years, Range or Combat. The only time I have experienced wobble (real life) is after I have held my rifle in standing shooting position for loooong periods of time, and fatigue starts to take effect after I loss stamina. Even when I'm looking thru my optic my head does not wobble around like I have Parkinson's disease (little Harsh, but completely true) when I'm looking down a rifle. Arma has really bad over swing on the rifles like they have a 10 lb weight attached to the front and a crazy amount of circular drift, not present in the real world.

When shooting a rifle, it's firmly pressed against your shoulder, and your cheek is against the stock which prevents wobble, and promotes accuracy for fast target alignment. With your cheek against the stock, where ever the scope goes your eye goes with it, head wobble or drift doesnt exist because its aligned looking thru the optic. Even when you look around with your head your rifle is fixed in a forward shooting position, only your head turns a bit, when you return your head back forward it natural aligns back with the scope thru proper alignment and muscle memory. Therefore no wobble. The only time I have had wobble is when doing stress shooting and training with law enforcement (Civilian to U.S. Marshals), my adrenaline is flowing and heart is racing, I wobble a little but not like in Arma. The stock of the rifle should always be solid in the shoulder of the character, with minimal sway up front as proper firing uses a pull/push to target method, not swing. The Mag well seems to be the main swivel position while looking into the optic instead of the shoulder, as the front and rear of the rifle would have be be moving, to cause this wobble.

I do like the idea of the 3D scope for realism purposes but it really needs to be fixed as its unrealistic. When looking thru a optic a players eye should be in prefect alignment with the scope not wobbling or having a circular drift, if a player turns there head, it should snap back in place once the head is returned back to center and should be dead on due to muscle memory. If a player stays in this position for to long then you can do a little bit of weapon wobble as a player would lose stamina, from holding that position for too long.

I hope this doesn't come as I'm complaining, as I doing it for improved game play and accuracy stand point for all players Novice to Hard Core.

this is the truest truth, i totally agree with you! Dear BI devs, would you please listen to real trained shooters! >_<

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this is the truest truth, i totally agree with you! Dear BI devs, would you please listen to real trained shooters! >_<

Which ones? The trained shooters that agree with you or the ones that disagree with you?

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I think stress shooting is what ARMA is trying to emulate.

My guess is that you need to analyze how you are moving and playing the game. Your shooting experience may not relate directly to how you are managing yourself in game. Shooting under high stress after running around with heavy loads... Take a good look at what you are doing in game and try ti replicate it in real life.

I've done it, and ARMA feels pretty accurate to me in that respect. I remember having a hard time on my first few times out of the wire because my heartbeat was so strong it was pulling my sights off-target on every beat. I also remember being really annoyed when the ARMY changed the weapons qualification, which was already a very stressful event, to include kneeling. My weapon swayed so hard I had to time the trigger pull to compensate for the sway.

What he said. Shooting at people with body armour, helmet and day sack on, while under the stress of return fire is entirely different to shooting on a range. Unless you get down in the prone with a bipod down, the sway I experienced in real life matches the sway you get in game quite nicely.

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If you were to make a tightrope simulator, would you make it so all the player had to do was press W to walk straight forward? Real tightropers walk straight forward, so why would you introduce wobble and the need to compensate for an artificial sway?

Answer: Realistic results, not controls. The controls could never be realistic with a mouse.

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There's not much weapon sway when in shooting range mode in Arma, by which I mean full stamina, no wounds, no gear on. I find that it as closely mimics real-world handling as you can expect a game to. Maybe not when moving exactly, but then I normally don't run around while shooting, so I wouldn't exactly know. Perhaps a bit too much sway on movement, okay.

Generally speaking though, Arma wants to mimic real-world accuracy results and combat styles, where people are tired, possibly injured, on an adrenaline high, and getting actively shot at.

I've never done that, but I'm guessing it's a lot messier than when I try to get them all in the 10-ring ;)

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It would be nice to have more comments of real soldiers, not to say that ArmA is not a real simulator as we all know, but to compare the sway of ArmA (trying to bring the "real stress feeling") and the reality of the soldier and the control of his weapon sway in the battlefield.

ps: I know, if I want a real simulator, I can join the army, blabla, what I'm saying is a simple comparison, not a total exam of ArmA vs Reality, just this particular point.

I can add the opinion of a weapon technician of FN Herstal wich a part of his job is to show-teach clients, soldiers the way to use and fire SCAR, Mk3, F2000, P90, Mag... And after doing that for 8 years, he said that the sway is far from the reality. This is one opinion (not with the stress of the battlefield added) but it is a good opinion to me. Also when he said he can shoot standing up with an AK47 at a target at 300m with the iron sight and hit. I know the stress is not there, it is not the same situation, I understand, but what about soldiers who are a a bit prepared (they are trained in stress). Even that we can not totally be prepared at war...

Edited by Ice9

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There had been comments from soilders in some other similar threads before, actually. The thing is, if you do learn the sway pattern and actively counter for it, the end result is quite similar in feel to real life.

In real life you don't sway, it's more like slight jumps or twitches (kind of like how the old ArmA 'sway' represents). But the thing is, you kind of can feel the jumps, you can kind of predict where your aim will be.

When you actively counter the ArmA 3 sway, you will get that kind of jumps or twitch, but what's more is that you get that predictibility as well.

Do take a while to familiarise with the sway. There is a learning curve to it but the end result is not bad. Took me about an hour or two but now I am pretty much happy with it. Now that there is the VR Arsenal you can practice there and play around with the available weapons as well

EDIT:

Forgot to say, since in this mechanism it is you who is countering the sway, if you got jumped in ambush for example and need to return fire quickly, you will find yourself shooting pretty ineffectively as you can't properly counter the sway. It's a way to represent stress I suppose.

Edited by martin_lee

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Which ones? The trained shooters that agree with you or the ones that disagree with you?

the trained shooters who actually ever got their hands on real guns instead of mouse & keyboard lol

With all due respect, i'm not trying to offend anybody so please don't ban me for this.

if you guys intend to turn this game into a real "Milsim", BI devs better start listening to real trained & experienced shooters in this forum.

if you guys intend to make this game stay a game, BI devs can just listen to the majority of players who most likely have no experience in firearms.

Happy new year & God bless you all ;)

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TiborasaurusRex no idea you played ArmA and glad you're in good health! I think you may actually be one of the few posters here with the facilities available to you to actually demonstrate how sway and inertia should be. On your Youtube channel mayhaps? ;)

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Are we really saying we want it to be even easier to shoot in Arma than it already is?

Holding a mouse steady requires no effort. Holding a weapon steady does. This effort is simulated in the game by requiring you to counter the sway of the weapon by moving your mouse properly. Timing, precision, holding breath, and fatigue management all factor in to your ability to shoot in the game. I think these are pretty decent analogs to real life shooting, considering it's a video game.

I don't understand why anyone would suggest removing or reducing the sway, making hitting 500m targets with iron-sights a breeze. Is it that easy in real life?

All the OP in this thread does is point out something everyone already knows, and then doesn't propose an alternate solution. If you can come up with a way to keep the shooting difficulty the same without the sway, (and please god without RNG firing cones) please propose it.

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Holding a mouse steady requires no effort. Holding a weapon steady does. This effort is simulated in the game by requiring you to counter the sway of the weapon by moving your mouse properly. Timing, precision, holding breath, and fatigue management all factor in to your ability to shoot in the game. I think these are pretty decent analogs to real life shooting, considering it's a video game.

Agree. I'm deeply suspicious of people who want the sway nerfed in the name of authenticity, I suspect what they're really after is simple point-and-click shooting. I also think martin_lee has made a very good observation;

When you actively counter the ArmA 3 sway, you will get that kind of jumps or twitch, but what's more is that you get that predictibility as well.

I'm happy enough with the degree of sway and the pattern is sufficiently organic. The main improvement I'd like to see is a suitable distinction made between handguns and longarms. With handguns the sway should much be as it is now, primarily the weapon moves within the viewport, but with a longarm mostly the whole viewport should move, this would better reflect 'cheek weld' with the stock.

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Agree. I'm deeply suspicious of people who want the sway nerfed in the name of authenticity, I suspect what they're really after is simple point-and-click shooting. I also think martin_lee has made a very good observation;

I'm happy enough with the degree of sway and the pattern is sufficiently organic. The main improvement I'd like to see is a suitable distinction made between handguns and longarms. With handguns the sway should much be as it is now, primarily the weapon moves within the viewport, but with a longarm mostly the whole viewport should move, this would better reflect 'cheek weld' with the stock.

agree very much so. that differentiation would be very nice.

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Even if Arma is presenting real life well, it shouldn't. Arma shouldn't be that realistic. Stop it with the double standards! Fatigue/sway was fine on release, I don't know why they ever changed it.

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Arma shouldn't be that realistic.

That is entirely up to Bohemia interactive creative vision.Or on the history success of

previous titles that lead to what arma is today.

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the trained shooters who actually ever got their hands on real guns instead of mouse & keyboard lol

With all due respect, i'm not trying to offend anybody so please don't ban me for this.

if you guys intend to turn this game into a real "Milsim", BI devs better start listening to real trained & experienced shooters in this forum.

if you guys intend to make this game stay a game, BI devs can just listen to the majority of players who most likely have no experience in firearms.

Happy new year & God bless you all ;)

I had a whole thing typed here, but instead I'm just going to start off with this: How do you think that weapon sway should behave?

Are we really saying we want it to be even easier to shoot in Arma than it already is?

For the record, the second video (and possibly the first) was recorded immediately following the Bootcamp update -- before the sway nerf -- so it should theoretically be even easier to do this now.

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For me this system is a complete nonsense. Forcing players to stop every 25 meters to keep your aim is a complete disaster, and of course I talk with knowledge about the facts .

Any properly trained soldier has good pulse because it has it will die quickly on the battlefield, my impression behind this whole thing could not be more negative.

Fortunately I solved the problem for everyone to play as you like.

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For me players are complete nonsense.They never lower weapons or jogg, instead they sprint as long as they can for their 25 meters.

Any soldier with gear is usually walking on patrols, and sprint only when in combat/moving between cover.

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I've grown up shooting firearms of all types and also in the US military. I've worn body armor on patrols and trained a lot in "active shooter" situations at a Martime Enforcement Academy (where we practiced CQC for weeks). I've never been in a real gun fight (and have no desire to be in one). The weapon sway is a bit exaggerated in Arma 3 but in my opinion creates a realistic stress on the player. Since we're playing a game we don't really "feel" anything when getting shot at. Stress and fatigue plays a large factor in your ability to shoot straight. If you run/sprint 100yards wearing a full combat load you'll be sucking in some air (no matter who you are) and your aim will be effected, I believe Arma 3 realistically creates that stress with weapon sway.

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...Since we're playing a game we don't really "feel" anything when getting shot at...

That's not true.

Obviously its not the same as real combat but I'm sure all players get increased adrenaline, heart rate etc when in an ARMA fire fight.

That will affect mouse control similarly to holding a weapon.

I do think the sway is excessive and should be toned down a bit.

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