Is fatigue system realistic? Fact based discussion

[roshnak 41]

You missed one other option, is the fatigue system realistic compared to a real life professional soldier and the answer is no, it is not realistic as a trained soldier in my country is far more fitter than whats modelled. And that's just an average solder just off basic training as for SAS and special forces they are much stronger and faster and capable of covering greater distances in shorter time while carrying more.

600m for a soldier is nothing as in = 0 fatigue, you're just warming up...;)

Also fatigue affect of accuracy of weapons also seems unrealistic, should not be so badly fatigued in order to aim accurately....even after running 10km.

That's not what this guy said

At this point I've been in the US ARMY for almost 14 years. Half of that in the infantry, and most of it as a combat or combat support leader.

The fatigue system in A3 feels pretty accurate to me. So much so that I didn't even notice when it was rolled out. I was already moving and gearing up in accordance to my RL training.

[-Coulum- 35]

about sway i tend to agree with SUBS17. my personal problem is not so much with the fatigue itself but with its impact on sway. and i actually think that most people see the problem there too. since this forced unproportional drunkeness is much more frustrating than just getting slower, which again i wish would be utilized much more instead of sway which seems like a cheap penalty method.

Gotta disagree. Firstly the effect can easily be handled through hold breath or taking a few short seconds to catch your breath. Secondly, What's the point of managing fatigue and load if its not going to have an effect on your combat performance?

600m for a soldier is nothing as in = 0 fatigue, you're just warming up...

Well yeah... if they were walking. And hey, in arma you can cover 50km and end up at 0 fatigue if you pace yourself. But even a badass SAS will burn out after 400m of full out sprinting, especially with gear. You must understand the different effects sprinting vs jogging vs marching vs walking a distance has...?

Edited November 12, 2014 by -Coulum-

[subs17 9]

Gotta disagree. Firstly the effect can easily be handled through hold breath or taking a few short seconds to catch your breath. Secondly, What's the point of managing fatigue and load if its not going to have an effect on your combat performance?

Well yeah... if they were walking. And hey, in arma you can cover 50km and end up at 0 fatigue if you pace yourself. But even a badass SAS will burn out after 400m of full out sprinting, especially with gear. You must understand the different effects sprinting vs jogging vs marching vs walking a distance has...?

No he bloody wont otherwise he'd be RTUed or if it were selection he'd fail selection and be binned. If you do your research and ask the right questions you'll find these guys are way fitter IRL than whats modelled in Arma. Try reading Bravo 2 zero, The one that got away or any of those other books or check out Bear Grilzs when he tried out for the French Foreign Legion and you'll see that incomparison Arma models a very unfit character who would fail a basic fitness test lol.

[-Coulum- 35]

I think you misunderstand what I am saying though. Some elite SAS soldier can probably travel days on days with minimal water sleep and food. They can probably achieve a remarkable pace and carry quite a bit of gear while doing that. They are truly impressive. But when it comes to a sprint, nobody can keep it up indefinitely. Sprinting, especially while carrying alot of weight, is anearobic, and you can only do continuous anaerobic activites for so long before the muscles become engorged in lactic acid and you can't use them well until it dissipates.

There is a difference between a fast pace, and a full out sprint. And when you hear all those amazing stories of soldier covering miles upon miles of ground, they are going at a controlled and steady pace. Not sprinting full out. And in arma it is very easy to maintain a controlled pace, literally forever without going above 10% fatigue.

And regarding fitness tests, I think you should actually try reproducing them in arma. You might be suprised that at least standard ones, are quite passable ingame.

[subs17 9]

That's not what this guy said

Well hes not in the NZ army now is he.

That's just recruits:

Heres the SAS

Fitness and navigation (4 weeks)[edit]

Based at Sennybridge Training Camp in Wales personnel are exposed to the Brecon Beacons and the Elan Valley, Wales where weather conditions are demanding, and unpredictable.

Initial tests are common to the rest of the British Armed Forces with the Combat Fitness Test (CFT), a 2.4 kilometres (1.5 mi) run in under 9 minutes 30 seconds proceded by a minimum of 45 pressups and 55 situps in two minutes each.

The first week of selection consists of runs in the Brecon Beacons, up and down hills with a loaded bergen. These exercises, such as the "Fan Dance", are further complicated by navigation and map reading exercises. Navigation runs in small groups in woodland areas and night tabs follow shortly, steadily increasing both the physical and mental load on the prospective operator. Loads increase over the period, while the individual's personal weapon has to be carried unsupported; candidates are required to keep the rifle in their hands as they climb slopes and jog down again.

In the third week individuals navigate from a grid reference to other points on the map, in an exercise called "Point to Point". Directing staff at each rendezvous ("RV") require the candidate to indicate location before instructing the next reference point.

The final stage of the "hills" phase of selection is known as "Test Week" which consists of six marches on consecutive days with ever increasing bergen weights and distances. The second to last day involves covering 35 kilometres (22 mi) with a hand-drawn sketch map rather than a printed map. Test week concludes with "Endurance", a 64 km (40miles) march across the Brecon Beacons, completed in less than 20 hours loaded in excess of fifty five pounds plus water, food and rifle.

---------- Post added at 10:55 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

I think you misunderstand what I am saying though. Some elite SAS soldier can probably travel days on days with minimal water sleep and food. They can probably achieve a remarkable pace and carry quite a bit of gear while doing that. They are truly impressive. But when it comes to a sprint, nobody can keep it up indefinitely. Sprinting, especially while carrying alot of weight, is anearobic, and you can only do continuous anaerobic activites for so long before the muscles become engorged in lactic acid and you can't use them well until it dissipates.

There is a difference between a fast pace, and a full out sprint. And when you hear all those amazing stories of soldier covering miles upon miles of ground, they are going at a controlled and steady pace. Not sprinting full out. And in arma it is very easy to maintain a controlled pace, literally forever without going above 10% fatigue.

And regarding fitness tests, I think you should actually try reproducing them in arma. You might be suprised that at least standard ones, are quite passable ingame.

That's whats missing in Arma is the ability to run at different paces for an all out sprint a soldier should be able to sprint 2.4km (clean)although it is a sprint start but then a very fast cruise. With kit and under fire they sprint the whole time while fighting otherwise you'll get shot and that goes for everyone. And IRL the last thing you'll do is collapse and faint after 500m lol if you're trained.

[bad benson 1733]

Secondly, What's the point of managing fatigue and load if its not going to have an effect on your combat performance?

load and longterm fatigue should slow you down (more than it does now when it comes to certain items) like it is logical and there should only be a big sway increase (aka suddenly drunk for no reason) from sprinting or similar "high performance movements". i and others have said many times before it's poorly "balanced" and simplistic by not distinguishing between aerobic and anaerobic and not that the system should be removed.

please stop acting like asking for tweaked sway and speed is asking for no fatigue at all.

and about combat effectiveness. of course speed is a big part of it. repositioning, flanking, reaching cover. how is that irrelevant to combat now?

no idea why you would boil it down to black and white so much. maybe be a bit more open minded instead of circle jerking so much about the perfection of the current system and the great consensus you guys feel about every detail of it...

hold breath the way it is now only shows perfectly how unpolished the current implementation is. overkill in some regards and way too forgiving in others for no apparent reason.

again. there are more options than the current way and no way at all. good for you if BI struck your personal taste perfectly. that doesn't mean we have to narrow down the discussion like that.

[PlacidPaul 11]

That's whats missing in Arma is the ability to run at different paces for an all out sprint a soldier should be able to sprint 2.4km (clean)although it is a sprint start but then a very fast cruise.

Wait what? A3's was vastly improved in this respect, there's plenty of paces. Sprinting is sprinting and doesn't last long, it's get conveyed well in game, which is using it to get to cover, that's really it.

Test with a 41% loadout. Weapon naturally lowered and not the swag jogging.

Gun in a backpack:

1,7km of jogging (14-11km/h) and 480m of sprinting (25-20km/h) until 60% fatigued.

Gun in hands

780m of jogging (14-11km/h) and 210m sprinting (18-15km/h) until 60% fatigued.

I was just thinking about looking into this, great work St. Jimmy.

Also, i've got to agree with Bad Benson about the effects of fatigue on sway, and i'd bet many people do too. Hope this gets tweak a bit.

[roshnak 41]

Well hes not in the NZ army now is he.

That's just recruits:

Heres the SAS

---------- Post added at 10:55 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

That's whats missing in Arma is the ability to run at different paces for an all out sprint a soldier should be able to sprint 2.4km (clean)although it is a sprint start but then a very fast cruise. With kit and under fire they sprint the whole time while fighting otherwise you'll get shot and that goes for everyone. And IRL the last thing you'll do is collapse and faint after 500m lol if you're trained.

I have to ask: Are you speaking from personal experience?

load and longterm fatigue should slow you down (more than it does now when it comes to certain items) like it is logical and there should only be a big sway increase (aka suddenly drunk for no reason) from sprinting or similar "high performance movements". i and others have said many times before it's poorly "balanced" and simplistic by not distinguishing between aerobic and anaerobic and not that the system should be removed.

please stop acting like asking for tweaked sway and speed is asking for no fatigue at all.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but it sounds less like tweaked sway and speed and more like a fundamental change to the way the fatigue system works.

[bad benson 1733]

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but it sounds less like tweaked sway and speed and more like a fundamental change to the way the fatigue system works.

well then you didn't read or misread it. if one wants penalties for launchers etc make them heavier (tweak). each item has a weight value.

speeds are also already changing dynamically. to make them play a bigger role they could be changed so fatigue slows you down more (tweak).

at the same time the impact on sway by the current fatigue value could be changed (tweak).

these are all tweaks of the current system. the only thing i can think of that would even come close to a "fundamental change", to use your dramatic wording, is maybe a general cap on non highly exhausting movements to avoid that idiotic situation where you jogg (not sprint) even with you weapon lowered but still have to rest after a long jogg to get steady aim.

it's retarded and it's not realistic nor is it good balancing from a gameplay perspective. all it does is force you to do role play like things that don't even make sense. i'm fine with expanded mechanics but not, if i feel stupid adapting to them. which happens since not every situation in the game is like the VR videos people keep posting. they don't prove anything about how good the system is. combat is not "run until certain fatigue value then stand still and shoot". combat involves more movement after that.

//////just brain storming//////

another thing i'd like would be this: sprinting and similar movements being able to push sway further than normal movements (mentioned cap) but if your general fatigue is higher the impact will also be bigger on sway when you sprint. and impact should be more defined by time of recovery instead of ridiculous looking max sway. so less but longer. that should get rid of the situations where your rifle is literally jumping across the screen. i can't even begin to describe how retarded that looks. if anything the way you move the rifle would become slow and draggy and not frantically jumping to all sides. since the latter actually costs energy...which brings me to another point. more inertia increase instead of too much sway increase.

although i think implying "not going to happen, too much" is annoying and adds nothing, i agree with what you are saying. it's not going to happen either way no matter how simple the suggestion. same as FFV, this is how it's going to be for a while. it's the story of arma ;). i just hope the marksman DLC introduces sway tweaks alongside whatever mechanic it adds for resting.

i'm back to my hole now :868:

[roshnak 41]

The section of your post that I quoted read like you thought there should be separate penalties for aerobic and anaerobic exercise, which would certainly be a pretty big change to the fatigue system. If I misread that, then I apologize.

I also don't think that I implied that it was too big a change. I was merely suggesting that it was a bit more than just a tweak.

I do suspect that there will be some changes to the overall weapon handling with the Marksman DLC.

[-Coulum- 35]

That's whats missing in Arma is the ability to run at different paces for an all out sprint a soldier should be able to sprint 2.4km (clean)although it is a sprint start but then a very fast cruise. With kit and under fire they sprint the whole time while fighting otherwise you'll get shot and that goes for everyone. And IRL the last thing you'll do is collapse and faint after 500m lol if you're trained.

Well I guess we're somewhat on the same page now. By sprint I don't mean a sprint start followed by a fast cruise. I just mean the sprint part. And that is really hard to keep up for much longer than a minute (400m). A fast cruise is not the sprint pace in arma.

More pacing options would be awesome. But we don't have em... there is however a way to overcome this. That's by using a combination of jogging and walking. Jog 10 seconds, walk 3, with weapons lowered and you will be set to run forever at a fast pace. If you manage your pace well you can easily maintain a low fatigue throughout a session. If you just go all out, well you will burn out quickly. Whether you are an average joe, a basic grunt, SAS, or Olympic runner, keeping proper pace is necessary to being able to run long distances.

In combat soldier are sprinting alot, but not constantly in order to avoid getting shot. To avoid getting shot, they stay in cover (which also allows you to catch your breath... just like in arma).

load and longterm fatigue should slow you down (more than it does now when it comes to certain items) like it is logical and there should only be a big sway increase (aka suddenly drunk for no reason) from sprinting or similar "high performance movements". i and others have said many times before it's poorly "balanced" and simplistic by not distinguishing between aerobic and anaerobic and not that the system should be removed.

please stop acting like asking for tweaked sway and speed is asking for no fatigue at all.

and about combat effectiveness. of course speed is a big part of it. repositioning, flanking, reaching cover. how is that irrelevant to combat now?

no idea why you would boil it down to black and white so much. maybe be a bit more open minded instead of circle jerking so much about the perfection of the current system and the great consensus you guys feel about every detail of it...

hold breath the way it is now only shows perfectly how unpolished the current implementation is. overkill in some regards and way too forgiving in others for no apparent reason.

again. there are more options than the current way and no way at all. good for you if BI struck your personal taste perfectly. that doesn't mean we have to narrow down the discussion like that.

Hey man, I was merely disagreeing with you. I don't see how I was narrowing down the discussion, or being closed minded more than anyone else expressing their opinion here. Trust, BI has not struck my personal taste. I aint circle jerking with anyone. I just genuinely disagreed with your suggestion to make the sway not mount up as quickly due to fatigue.

The main reason behind this is because it means that anaerobic activities like short sprints, carrying alot of gear, or rapidly ducking in an out of cover will really have no immediate consequence to a player's ability to engage someone accurately. In reality that kind of activity gets the blood pumping, your breathing somewhat heavy, and your muscles fatigued - your not going to be shooting at your best for a couple of moments. Just like in game now. That is not something that you have to wait until you are halfway to exhaustion to experience. All it takes is a short sprint.

Yet, If you make it so sway increase less, or in a linear relationship to fatigue, you will barely notice sway increase until fatigue gets to high levels, Ie. 50%. So the in the above situations, where you should be less effective immediately after a sprint, or ducking in and out of cover etc., it would no longer work that way. You wouldn't really notice anything until you have significantly fatigued.

I personally rarely go above 20% fatigue. If you make it so sway ramps up slowly, rather than suddenly like now, I won't ever really have a significant sway increase at all. I would be sprinting, ducking, stopping and engaging with pretty much just as much accuracy as someone who was totally rested and motionless, provided I maintained fatigue less than around 50%. I don't think that's right.

Of course I would be all for a more indepth system that made more strenuous activities have quicker sway penalties with representation of aerobic/anaerobic activity... but that is far more than a tweak. And that is not the suggestion I originally disagreed with.

[bad benson 1733]

I personally rarely go above 20% fatigue. If you make it so sway ramps up slowly, rather than suddenly like now, I won't ever really have a significant sway increase at all. I would be sprinting, ducking, stopping and engaging with pretty much just as much accuracy as someone who was totally rested and motionless, provided I maintained fatigue less than around 50%. I don't think that's right.

it's funny how you just say that while at the same time not fully understanding what i'm saying. i mean ok. you believe "it" would not work. but that's it. just you and your certainty that any kind of change will break it lol. the problem is WHEN and HOW much sway/fatigue increases not THAT it does.

did you ever try to look at how things are set up in the configs? you can make fatigue increase faster on certain anims. it's defined per anim. so what you are saying is plain and simple not true. i mean dude. it's all good, you like it and no one should touch it. but it's just not true that one has to change the whole thing to get a different balance. there are many values to counter eachother. it's also not true that there is only the possibility to just nerf the whole thing like you describe above.

so as i said before, you could totally keep the penality for sprinting while making less taxing movements have less of a penalty. that would create a bigger gap between sprinting and all the stuff you just described that you want penalized. and normal movement would still slowly increase fatigue which would make a sudden sprint even more penalized.

that has nothing to do with sway/fatigue increasing slower in general. that's not at all what i suggested. sorry but you just don't (want to?) get it. and i'm tired of this. it's just the usual people defending details at all cost. i'm just talking possibilities here. you don't believe me? fair enough.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

From the title of this thread, the Fatigue system is fine. It can use a few improvements here and there, and with the addition of the Marksman DLC, I can expect that but it's fine for now. You can't really define fatigue for everyone, because everyone is different. Some people think soldiers can run for ever, others will say they run too far in game with the amount of gear on. It's a game guys, and where it is right now is almost perfect. You can run far with little gear, and short bursts with heavy gear. The most important thing that most people forget or refuses to do is rest. I've watched countless YouTube videos of guys jogging 3 m/ph because the refuse to stop and rest and start cursing their aim all because thy didn't take a few seconds the catch their breath. This is exactly what the Bootcamp DLC was for but well, that's their fault when they die on the battlefield. So fatigue system? It's realistic from the stand point that it's a game. Nuff said.

[PlacidPaul 11]

One thing I did years ago in arma2, was turn my headbob back up to default level or maybe even slightly above. When I did this I realized I would do more run walk run walk, so I could see better. I suggest this to anyone, made me a better player. Problem is it makes people sick, so I guess it has a place in the game settings... too bad. The Arma3 headbob seems like a step back in my opinion. :(

Edited November 13, 2014 by PlacidPaul

[-Coulum- 35]

that has nothing to do with sway/fatigue increasing slower in general. that's not at all what i suggested. sorry but you just don't (want to?) get it. and i'm tired of this. it's just the usual people defending details at all cost. i'm just talking possibilities here. you don't believe me? fair enough.

Wait, what am I missing. I am arguing against this statement:

my personal problem is not so much with the fatigue itself but with its impact on sway. and i actually think that most people see the problem there too. since this forced unproportional drunkeness is much more frustrating than just getting slower, which again i wish would be utilized much more instead of sway which seems like a cheap penalty method.

Are you still wanting to make fatigue have less of an impact on sway. That's what I am disagreeing with. That's what I am discussing. You can play with the rate of fatigue on sprinting, jogging etc. all you want, but that is a very different thing than making more "proportional drunkedness".

[bad benson 1733]

Wait, what am I missing. I am arguing against this statement:

...

Are you still wanting to make fatigue have less of an impact on sway. That's what I am disagreeing with. That's what I am discussing. You can play with the rate of fatigue on sprinting, jogging etc. all you want, but that is a very different thing than making more "proportional drunkedness".

yea i guess i was being too general in my initial post. less impact on sway when jogging, yes. when i talk about sway being bad, i only talk about certain situations. everything i said was refering to jogging (although max sway looks ridiculous either way). i see no problem whatsoever with shakiness after sprinting since, as i've said on other occasions too, it makes sense because of heavy breathing. but there is no point arguing or trying to convince eachother. i will instead stop wasting my time and try some stuff.

what i have in mind is simply reducing fatigue (which is kind of equal to sway sadly..can be confusing) on "normal" movements and increasing it a lot on stuff like sprinting. so it mostly is irrelevant for jogging but still adds some small background fatigue that then will add up onto fatigue that is caused by a sprint after a long jogg. i hope i can also mod the recovery time. will have to see. the only potential problem i see from a modding standpoint is that one probably would make the time you can sprint shorter since you would get fatigue faster when sprinting. don't have a problem with that though.

because everyone is different. Some people think soldiers can run for ever

sadly that is not what fatigue actually is in this game. yes when you use "getfatigue", you get a value but the actual effects are more illusive. having separate threads for sway and fatigue is not helping that confusion. i'm not convinced by a few guys with "experience" saying "yea realistic" since as you said that it's subjective and also not one of them talked about sway except one who said it's not realistic. it's always about "can run this long". it's not like the arma soldiers stop moving. they just become useless ;)

Edited November 13, 2014 by Bad Benson

[I give up 152]

Even if the fatigue system was realistic (which is not) the realistic term does not apply in to a video game. A video game must be, above all, enjoyable and this over implemented fatigue just takes away large part of the joy.

Plus, in combination with damage system just put the game very close of the unplayable category.

I mean, if we get hit and after healing ourselves, we still have the penalizations in movement and accuracy for being wounded and a red flickering screen, if we add the fatigue then we will also have a black flickering screen and all penalizations linked, in these circumstances the gameplay becomes very close of a psychedelic nightmare where every action or movement is painfull slow.

Adding to all this one AI with superpowers that can hit us with a ultra accuracy basically through everything, the chances for getting this nightmare are insanely high.

The good thing is the fatigue can be disable and I honestly hope that the mission makers can add the option for it with every single mission.

[subs17 9]

Well I guess we're somewhat on the same page now. By sprint I don't mean a sprint start followed by a fast cruise. I just mean the sprint part. And that is really hard to keep up for much longer than a minute (400m). A fast cruise is not the sprint pace in arma.

More pacing options would be awesome. But we don't have em... there is however a way to overcome this. That's by using a combination of jogging and walking. Jog 10 seconds, walk 3, with weapons lowered and you will be set to run forever at a fast pace. If you manage your pace well you can easily maintain a low fatigue throughout a session. If you just go all out, well you will burn out quickly. Whether you are an average joe, a basic grunt, SAS, or Olympic runner, keeping proper pace is necessary to being able to run long distances.

In combat soldier are sprinting alot, but not constantly in order to avoid getting shot. To avoid getting shot, they stay in cover (which also allows you to catch your breath... just like in arma).

Hey man, I was merely disagreeing with you. I don't see how I was narrowing down the discussion, or being closed minded more than anyone else expressing their opinion here. Trust, BI has not struck my personal taste. I aint circle jerking with anyone. I just genuinely disagreed with your suggestion to make the sway not mount up as quickly due to fatigue.

The main reason behind this is because it means that anaerobic activities like short sprints, carrying alot of gear, or rapidly ducking in an out of cover will really have no immediate consequence to a player's ability to engage someone accurately. In reality that kind of activity gets the blood pumping, your breathing somewhat heavy, and your muscles fatigued - your not going to be shooting at your best for a couple of moments. Just like in game now. That is not something that you have to wait until you are halfway to exhaustion to experience. All it takes is a short sprint.

Yet, If you make it so sway increase less, or in a linear relationship to fatigue, you will barely notice sway increase until fatigue gets to high levels, Ie. 50%. So the in the above situations, where you should be less effective immediately after a sprint, or ducking in and out of cover etc., it would no longer work that way. You wouldn't really notice anything until you have significantly fatigued.

I personally rarely go above 20% fatigue. If you make it so sway ramps up slowly, rather than suddenly like now, I won't ever really have a significant sway increase at all. I would be sprinting, ducking, stopping and engaging with pretty much just as much accuracy as someone who was totally rested and motionless, provided I maintained fatigue less than around 50%. I don't think that's right.

Of course I would be all for a more indepth system that made more strenuous activities have quicker sway penalties with representation of aerobic/anaerobic activity... but that is far more than a tweak. And that is not the suggestion I originally disagreed with.

To describe how it is what happens is you run as fast as possible for example and what the body does if you're fit is allows you under those conditions to maintain that speed for certain time, as people get tired the speed drops back but does not stop. If a person is blowing their ass and finding it hard to keep up their body does not stop or collapse what happens is they drop to a slower run to a jog and then to a walk. So that's when everyone else has to reduce their speed so that they remain together or leave them behind in order to get to where they are going. Carrying a load reduces the top speed and means that you'll decay quicker and wind up walking in some situations also terrain factor so down hill you move quicker, level ground is ok but the steeper an incline the greater the effect on your speed and forests/bush also are a big factor. Some situations where you are pushing yourself you might throw up but its only a combination of factors that make a person collapse in other words lack of fluids and being pushed to hard can result in that but its very rare. Walking pace is also in different speeds as well so walking fast "forced march" is very quick

forced march (plural forced marches)

1.(military) A movement on foot by soldiers or military prisoners, who must, in order to satisfy a military requirement, travel at a speed or in adverse conditions that would normally tire them excessively.  [quotations ▼]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10781974

In the first day of the selection process, hopefuls faced a 2.4km run, 30 push ups, 66 curl ups, a 5m rope climb then had to climb a 1.8m wall.

They also must complete battle efficiency training which involved running 8km in under one hour and 12 minutes carrying 35kg.

So maybe the modelling of stamina could be reduced speed from sprint to run to eventual walk but were talking kilometres for running and then walking unless you're modelling a soldier who is unfit lol.

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

From the title of this thread, the Fatigue system is fine. It can use a few improvements here and there, and with the addition of the Marksman DLC, I can expect that but it's fine for now. You can't really define fatigue for everyone, because everyone is different. Some people think soldiers can run for ever, others will say they run too far in game with the amount of gear on. It's a game guys, and where it is right now is almost perfect. You can run far with little gear, and short bursts with heavy gear. The most important thing that most people forget or refuses to do is rest. I've watched countless YouTube videos of guys jogging 3 m/ph because the refuse to stop and rest and start cursing their aim all because thy didn't take a few seconds the catch their breath. This is exactly what the Bootcamp DLC was for but well, that's their fault when they die on the battlefield. So fatigue system? It's realistic from the stand point that it's a game. Nuff said.

IRL a trained soldier would still after running long distance be able to hit the tgt and a marksman or sniper would still have an accurate aim because that's what they train for only a basic recruit would suffer to much from a run to hit the tgt. I mean a sniper it is his job lol.

I have an idea character class fitness so it would go pogue(the current level), then grunt, then Special Forces, then NZ Special Forces.

Edited November 13, 2014 by SUBS17

[roshnak 41]

To describe how it is what happens is you run as fast as possible for example and what the body does if you're fit is allows you under those conditions to maintain that speed for certain time, as people get tired the speed drops back but does not stop. If a person is blowing their ass and finding it hard to keep up their body does not stop or collapse what happens is they drop to a slower run to a jog and then to a walk.

This is what happens in happens in Arma 3. There is no point when you will become so fatigued that you can no longer move.

As for your forced march quote:

forced march (plural forced marches)

1.(military) A movement on foot by soldiers or military prisoners, who must, in order to satisfy a military requirement, travel at a speed or in adverse conditions that would normally tire them excessively.  [quotations ▼]

It's right there. You keep describing all these hard things that military personnel have to do at various points during training or in extreme battlefield conditions. Do you think that they aren't exhausted after that?

Again, I have to ask: Are you speaking from personal experience, from talking to people who have actually done this stuff, or just from reading a lot on the subject?

Edited November 14, 2014 by roshnak

[13islucky 10]

That definition of a forced march is a bit vague, and could be considered as several things in-game. For example, I would consider the lowered combat pace to be a forced march, seeing as it's faster than walking while still retaining the 'march' part of the equation.

With combat pace and lowered weapon, you can easily traverse large terrains without fatigue building up to combat ineffective (i.e. drunken sway) levels. Granted you may have to walk a for a few seconds every 5-10 minutes, but that makes sense.

My opinion on the fatigue is that I like the concept and it's fairly well-balanced. I would like however a more complex system, though that's beyond tweaking and would need far more work. With some practice you can do some very pretty SAS-style drills with the new system.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

To describe how it is what happens is you run as fast as possible for example and what the body does if you're fit is allows you under those conditions to maintain that speed for certain time, as people get tired the speed drops back but does not stop. If a person is blowing their ass and finding it hard to keep up their body does not stop or collapse what happens is they drop to a slower run to a jog and then to a walk. So that's when everyone else has to reduce their speed so that they remain together or leave them behind in order to get to where they are going. Carrying a load reduces the top speed and means that you'll decay quicker and wind up walking in some situations also terrain factor so down hill you move quicker, level ground is ok but the steeper an incline the greater the effect on your speed and forests/bush also are a big factor. Some situations where you are pushing yourself you might throw up but its only a combination of factors that make a person collapse in other words lack of fluids and being pushed to hard can result in that but its very rare. Walking pace is also in different speeds as well so walking fast "forced march" is very quick

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10781974

So maybe the modelling of stamina could be reduced speed from sprint to run to eventual walk but were talking kilometres for running and then walking unless you're modelling a soldier who is unfit lol.

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

IRL a trained soldier would still after running long distance be able to hit the tgt and a marksman or sniper would still have an accurate aim because that's what they train for only a basic recruit would suffer to much from a run to hit the tgt. I mean a sniper it is his job lol.

I have an idea character class fitness so it would go pogue(the current level), then grunt, then Special Forces, then NZ Special Forces.

Well the ony "Special Forces" in the game were on Opfor in one mission, and the Brits Miller and his crew. The rest of the characters are I'll trained, left over engineers taking stuff down and getting rest to leave Altis in the Pacific and head for... But hey, they don't do too bad considering.

[TUCbeacon 10]

It's funny how everyone says "trained soldier should/would run that far and still be able to....". So noone of you has real life experience, which makes this discussion pointless, until someone with actual military experience says something about this.

[Defunkt 431]

It's funny how everyone says "trained soldier should/would run that far and still be able to....". So noone of you has real life experience, which makes this discussion pointless, until someone with actual military experience says something about this.

They have...

At this point I've been in the US ARMY for almost 14 years. Half of that in the infantry, and most of it as a combat or combat support leader.

The fatigue system in A3 feels pretty accurate to me. So much so that I didn't even notice when it was rolled out. I was already moving and gearing up in accordance to my RL training.

The standard fighting load for an infantry soldier averages 15.8 to 20.4 Kg (35-45 lbs). More than that and you're paying a heavy price in terms of endurance and effectiveness. The gear list will usually entails a helmet, personal weapon + basic ammo load (300rd for the rifleman), double plate carrier with plates, one MRE, two frag grenades (if issued), 2 quarts of water and some assorted small items that are usually not counted.

Backpacks are usually left on the vehicles or left at a staging point if you are patrolling on foot. It is not the same to run around with a pack in a training environment as to actually fight with one. They unbalance you badly, add to the back pain generated by the body armor, and add greatly to your fatigue. Not to mention that they swing around, get you stuck in narrow spaces and fences, and generally fight you all the way. To go into combat with a heavy pack is generally considered a rookie mistake. It is like trying to work with a monkey on your back.

Loads in excess of 20 Kg are possible but are not recommended for a combat environment. Loads in excess of 27 Kg (60 Lbs) are typically used only during administrative movements when you are away from the enemy. Loads in excess of 35 Kg (80 lbs) are considered excessive and only carried when there is no viable alternative.

Moderate exercise in hot weather with a standard load (15.8-20.4 Kg/35-45 lbs) can be sustained by a well conditioned soldiers for periods of up to 20 hours (with proper rest breaks @ 15min/hour) a day for up to 8 days. However, moving around with that kind of weight, specially during actual fighting, will have you breathing hard within a few minutes and its sustainable only if you pace yourself. Most tactical movements and fighting are done at a walking pace or at the standard military 8 min/mile pace. If you start sprinting everywhere you will spend yourself pretty fast.

Sprinting or fighting with a 45 Kg load is just not viable. Not only will you start running into all sorts of problems (orthopedic pains, blisters, etc...), but your soldiers will be pretty much exhausted in the first two hours. More than that and your unit will lose cohesion and have a trail of stragglers a kilometer long.

If you want to fight like a pro in ARMA you need to gear up like a pro. If you want to win in ARMA you have to plan like a pro.

[TUCbeacon 10]

Sorry for not noticing that post, read just last 3 pages . That actually proves that current fatigue system is as close to reality as possible.

[qantaqa1987 10]

Still this is game.. Fatigue should not be too realistic. When this game lacks on so many other fronts.. C.S.I zoom, no wind ballistics... ect