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Is fatigue system realistic? Fact based discussion

Is fatigue system realistic enough for you?  

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  1. 1. Is fatigue system realistic enough for you?



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The fatigue it's a major feature, it reduce the run and gun aspect and this "rambos" with heavy mg and titans where do dominate the whole map.

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I feel like fatigue is too punishing. As an unfit person who was in reasonably good shape a few years ago, Even now I can run 2 kilometers at a steady pace before I start to feel like im going to die. I haven't trained or exercised in a long time. I think a solider who is in the midst of it all every day should have no problems running with gear and not getting instantly fatigued./

Again, you guys are thinking about no-loads or light balanced loads on short distances or slow speeds. Try 35 to 100 pounds for a Km full run. That's what people are trying to do in A3.

A trained infantryman can do 2 miles (not KM) with 35 lbs (15kg) at an 8min/mile pace and then go through a slower paced engagement _in an emergency_. More than that in terms of distance and pace and you'll end up losing momentum and being forced to pause (which gives the enemy the best opportunity for a counterattack). That is pretty much what ARMA will let you do. I am getting the impression that some of you have no conception at all of what this weight and distance means. I'll suggest you look for your nearest athletic track and do 8 laps with a backpack carrying 15 - 45 kg and judge for yourself. See how long it takes you. See if you can even run.

Civilian life and training environments are stress free. Thus comparisons between what you can do at home and what you can do on combat are invalid. The stress and anxiety of combat increases to your oxygen consumption rate. So does carrying heavy and unbalanced loads at high rates of speed. Here is another experiment for you: Do two minutes of boxing. See if they aren't the longest and most exhausting two minutes of your life.

Third experiment; Run 8 laps at full speed on the athletic track and then do 20 minutes of fighting with someone who really has a grudge against you. Do it at noon on a summer day.

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g:take into count where do you travel (uphill exhaust you/downhill regain you)

I don't completely agree with regaining when going downhill though. Try running down a hill with 30kg of gear. Your body has to stop all that weight + your own weight from rolling down hill with every step.

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I don't completely agree with regaining when going downhill though. Try running down a hill with 30kg of gear. Your body has to stop all that weight + your own weight from rolling down hill with every step.

I think it only stops you from losing stamina now rather than regaining it

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I have a feeling that majority of people who disagree with fatigue have yet to try out:

a: lowering weapon (2x Ctr)

b:alternate between jogging and walking (which you do when you spot black flash on the sides) (S + W)

c: pressing C while weapon down to alternative between combat paces

d:use sprint in combat (shift)

e:drop ruck if you are stopping to rest

f:taking into account what do you carry

g:take into count where do you travel (uphill exhaust you/downhill regain you)

This, also I frequently carry heavy amounts of gear with a weapon, in many different types of environments, over large distances and the fatigue system feels right to me. The people who complain don't realize that there's a difference between walking, fast walking, jogging, and running. Most infantry units never full out run with a full pack of gear, maybe a jog at best and doing that you can go for miles. Full out running/sprinting exhausts anyone very quickly, especially with gear on.

The biggest problem with the fatigue system is that the PLAYERS are not used to dealing with realistic levels, they're all used to superhuman levels of fatigue.

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I don't completely agree with regaining when going downhill though. Try running down a hill with 30kg of gear. Your body has to stop all that weight + your own weight from rolling down hill with every step.

From years of experience of hauling heavy gear down mountain sides I can attest it is not too challenging on the heartrate at all BUT does tire the muscles, tendons, ligaments and gives higher chance of shin splints. Never got winded at all on steep declines though iy can you leave you sore as an after effect.

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So anyone know how you turn it off?

It should be an option somewhere for a host, in my opinion, all the fan boys join the army if you want to get tired, some of us just want to have fun :P

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So anyone know how you turn it off?

It should be an option somewhere for a host, in my opinion, all the fan boys join the army if you want to get tired, some of us just want to have fun :P

unit enableFatigue false

However, brushing off the fatigue system as something for fanboys or military wannabes is unfair. The fatigue system, at its core, is not about realism. It's about eliminating the ablity for players to pick loadouts that allow them to excel in every situation. It's about forcing players to commit more fully to the more specialized roles in the game, because it was dumb and not fun when everyone ran around with a SMAW and a DMR or SAW in Arma 2. And it does it in a smart way, since it doesn't prevent players from taking those loadouts if they have to, but instead imposes penalties in the form of decreased mobility. What it does, and I know some people around here are going to hate this, is make the game more balanced.

But it's also sort of realistic.

Edited by roshnak

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all the fan boys join the army if you want to get tired, some of us just want to have fun :P

Sigh, I'm tired of this argument being made.

If you think anything realistic in Arma is only there for realism's sake, you're wrong. Realistic fatigue is there to enhance and diversify the gameplay.

We want to have fun too. Does your idea of fun involve there being no reason at all to not grab a Zafir with 6 boxes of ammo and a Titan launcher with 3 missiles? That is boring as hell, because everyone does it, and if you aren't doing it, you're at a clear disadvantage, with no advantage to carrying light.

The fatigue system is what creates those advantages and disadvantages. You could still try to carry that kind of equipment, and you would have an advantage in firepower, but you'd be disadvantaged in your maneuverability. That is called good gameplay. That's what makes Arma fun.

What good are all the lighter weapons in the game if nobody has any reason to use them? Half of the game's arsenal is made useless when cutting fatigue out of the equation. There's literally no reason to not choose a machinegun over any AR or SMG, and no reason to choose any launcher besides the Titan. Yawn. How is it fun if your enemy carrying a Zafir + Titan can run just as fast and maneuver just as well as you when you decide to take an SMG and a few nades? How is it not fun for you to have the advantage of speed in that situation? Why would you want your choice of gear to not have any gameplay implications? Why even have gear choice at all? Why play Arma?

Being able to sprint to every objective with all the gear you could ever need turns the game into a chore. You don't have to make any decisions whatsoever, it dumbs the game down so much that I honestly do not understand why you're playing Arma in the first place.

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The fatigue system, at its core, is not about realism. It's about eliminating the ablity for players to pick loadouts that allow them to excel in every situation. It's about forcing players to commit more fully to the more specialized roles in the game, because it was dumb and not fun when everyone ran around with a SMAW and a DMR or SAW in Arma 2.

i totally agree but i also think that it could be balanced better by making certain high value items havier instead of trusting in a general formular to sort things out.

the problem with fatigue discussions is that mostly everything revolves around being loaded. but when you are playing as a light recon, which i did a lot lately for testing stuff, it is still overdone. and i'm not talking about fatigue overall but its effects on aiming. i think the recovery is too slow and the sway is way overdone when you are a light unit. if we want to talk about facts we should not only focus on being loaded and travelling far but also fast CQB. and if you want it or not. that is part of arma and also of real life. there's a wide range of situations and loadouts. and i just to think that the system handles them all well.

The fatigue system is what creates those advantages and disadvantages. You could still try to carry that kind of equipment, and you would have an advantage in firepower, but you'd be disadvantaged in your maneuverability.

that's another thing. i would love if the system would slow you down more with heavy gear instead of going right to the sway too and mess with it. there are many ways to do this. it doesn't always have to be black and white.

Edited by Bad Benson

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Here's an interesting fact. If you strip your character to his underwear, he can run 14.6 meters/sec. Which is roughly 30mph....for over 1km...I just tested it.

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Here's an interesting fact. If you strip your character to his underwear, he can run 14.6 meters/sec. Which is roughly 30mph....for over 1km...I just tested it.

I don't believe that. Just tested in editor naked (both me and my avatar) and top speed was:

"24.5649" in km/h = 15.2639 mph

onEachFrame {hintSilent format ["%1", speed player];diag_log format ["%1", speed player]}

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They give us all these fancy backpacks an for what? Just my opinion worst thing BI ever implimeanted I understand ppl carrying 10 boxes of lmg ammo or 8 rockets of At is bit unrealsitic but this current system is just wrong. Like i said just my opinion. Game breaker for me. The ai can still one shot ya over 300m an half the time with a decently thought thru loadout(taking fatigue in mind) an ya can't even defend yourself half the time.

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I don't believe that. Just tested in editor naked (both me and my avatar) and top speed was:

"24.5649" in km/h = 15.2639 mph

onEachFrame {hintSilent format ["%1", speed player];diag_log format ["%1", speed player]}

Yep SpanishSurfer's calculations are very much off. I got about the same results with my "how far I can run in 60s" test which was 6,83m/s = 24,6km/h

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I don't believe that. Just tested in editor naked (both me and my avatar) and top speed was:

"24.5649" in km/h = 15.2639 mph

onEachFrame {hintSilent format ["%1", speed player];diag_log format ["%1", speed player]}

I used a stopwatch and ran exactly 100m, I'm using vanilla settings, on level terrain, with no clothes. While on a server and not in the editor.

Edited by SpanishSurfer

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Here's an interesting fact. If you strip your character to his underwear, he can run 14.6 meters/sec. Which is roughly 30mph....for over 1km...I just tested it.
I get 6.85 m/s while sprinting naked. 14.6 m/s would be extremely fast. Like faster than the pace for world record 100m. At that speed you could run the 100m in 6.84 seconds...

I think you might of missed something in your tests.

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Fun fact: if the Arma's naked guy had been in 2012 olympics, he would have placed 11th in the men's 1500m final. :D

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Hello,

I created a PvP mission and I haven't done any modifications to the ArmA 3 fatigue system. As a consequence players started to complain because some other missions use some kind of fatigue reduction / tweaking.

This discussion is not about whether the fatigue system is good for gameplay (because I think "gamepaly" it is too vast subject to discuss about and will not give me the answer I am looking for) or about whether you like playing with it or not.

I want to know your opinion about how far is the fatigue system from an ideal "fatigue system" that is closest to reality according to your belief and facts you are aware of.

The poll has 3 options:

1) too easy = overall soldier fatigue is too small compared to what happens in the real world and must be fixed

2) balanced = fatigue system is realistic enough and it doesn't need any major fixing

3) too hard = overall soldier fatigue is too much compared to what happens in the real world and must be fixed

Please provide facts in this discussion with the following method:

1) provide ArmA 3 test results

2) provide real world test results

For both cases provide test parameters and result:

A) distance in meters

B) terrain (flat, hill, etc)

C) running (running, sprinting, walking, combat pace)

D) weapon (rifle, handgun, launcher, lowered, raised, etc)

E) weight (value returned by loadAbs or kg)

F) gear (weapons, items, magazines, uniforms, backpacks, etc)

RESULT: value of "getFatigue player" and./or appreciation of fatigue state (speed, aiming, weapon sway, etc)

Here is an example of a test done in ArmA 3 (I used kg = loadAbs / 9.82 formula for weight):

BASIC TEST - common gear #1

===========================

A) same as before

B) same as before

C) same as before

D) no weapon

E) 124 loadAbs (12.63 kg)

F) gear: "U_O_SpecopsUniform_ocamo" + map + radio + watch + compass + uav terminal + binocular

RESULT: 23% fatigue

BASIC TEST - common gear #2

===========================

A) same as before

B) same as before

C) same as before

D) no weapon

E) 84 loadAbs (8.55 kg)

F) gear: "U_I_CombatUniform" + map + radio + watch + compass + uav terminal + binocular

RESULT: 21% fatigue

ASSAULT SOLDIER #1

==================

A) same as before

B) same as before

C) same as before

D) lowered rifle

E) 482 loadAbs (49.1 kg)

F) gear:

["arifle_MX_GL_Black_F","hgun_P07_F","Laserdesignator"],

["30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag","16Rnd_9x21_Mag","16Rnd_9x21_Mag","HandGrenade","HandGrenade","SmokeShell","SmokeShellGreen",

"Laserbatteries","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_Smoke_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_SmokeGreen_Grenade_shell"],

["","","optic_Hamr"],[],["","",""],

["30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag"],[],["16Rnd_9x21_Mag"],

["FirstAidKit"],

["ItemMap","ItemCompass","ItemWatch","ItemRadio","ItemGPS","Laserdesignator"],

"U_I_CombatUniform_shortsleeve","V_PlateCarrierIA1_dgtl","","H_HelmetSpecB_paint1",""]

RESULT: 91% fatigue (60% fatigue after around half the distance ~600m)

ASSAULT SOLDIER #2

==================

A) same as before

B) same as before

C) same as before

D) lowered rifle

E) 552 loadAbs (56.2 kg)

F) gear:

["arifle_Katiba_GL_F","hgun_Rook40_F","Laserdesignator"],

["30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green","16Rnd_9x21_Mag","16Rnd_9x21_Mag","HandGrenade","HandGrenade","SmokeShell","SmokeShellGreen",

"Laserbatteries","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_Smoke_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_SmokeGreen_Grenade_shell"],

["","","optic_Arco"],[],["","",""],

["30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green"],[],["16Rnd_9x21_Mag"],

["FirstAidKit"],

["ItemMap","ItemCompass","ItemWatch","ItemRadio","ItemGPS","Laserdesignator"],

"U_O_CombatUniform_ocamo","V_PlateCarrier1_blk","","H_HelmetLeaderO_ocamo",""];

RESULT: 97% fatigue (60% fatigue after around half the distance ~600m)

You missed one other option, is the fatigue system realistic compared to a real life professional soldier and the answer is no, it is not realistic as a trained soldier in my country is far more fitter than whats modelled. And that's just an average solder just off basic training as for SAS and special forces they are much stronger and faster and capable of covering greater distances in shorter time while carrying more.

600m for a soldier is nothing as in = 0 fatigue, you're just warming up...;)

Also fatigue affect of accuracy of weapons also seems unrealistic, should not be so badly fatigued in order to aim accurately....even after running 10km.

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I used a stopwatch and ran exactly 100m, I'm using vanilla settings, on level terrain, with no clothes. While on a server and not in the editor.

You should check with the script commands in game instead of a stopwatch etc.

30mph is as fast as Usain Bolt.

BTW, earlier you said you tested over 1km, now you say 100m. Which was it?

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Btw I've just found an interesting thing that I was wondering last time I watched some people running without a gun. Now the naked guy made me think this again and test this quickly

It's much more effective to have a backpack where you can put your gun for the time when you're running longer distances because when you don't have anything in your hands you get fatigued less and you can run 7km/h faster!

People with launchers don't get advantage of this and if you've a pistol you also want to put that in your backpack to get free hands.

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

Test with a 41% loadout. Weapon naturally lowered and not the swag jogging.

Gun in a backpack:

1,7km of jogging (14-11km/h) and 480m of sprinting (25-20km/h) until 60% fatigued.

Gun in hands

780m of jogging (14-11km/h) and 210m sprinting (18-15km/h) until 60% fatigued.

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@St.Jimmy: this is kind of cool. i was comparing running with recon loadout and after dropping it the other day and it's kind of surprising how long you can sprint without a weapon in your hands. seemed overdone to me tbh. but what you said could be interesting for stuff like AGM where you can put all weapons on your back. i wonder, if the vanilla system is even balanced for that, since the anim for doing so isn't supporting by the base game hence you can't do it normally.

about sway i tend to agree with SUBS17. my personal problem is not so much with the fatigue itself but with its impact on sway. and i actually think that most people see the problem there too. since this forced unproportional drunkeness is much more frustrating than just getting slower, which again i wish would be utilized much more instead of sway which seems like a cheap penalty method.

i'd also like to see (if sway ever gets balanced properly) an impact on holding breath based on fatigue (from sprinting mostly).

in general sway should mostly play a role for long range aiming. but sadly in its overdone state it even impacts on aiming quite close in ridiculous ways. i also have to mention that it's quite annoying how often the reaction to critiquing the system or its values is "you just have to learn it".

what makes people think that not liking it automatically means you can't handle it? i can cope with it like anyone who likes it. that doesn't change the fact that it feels ridiculous at times. i remember how BI said they will only make visual inertia instead of "real inertia" to avoid the feeling of fighting your avatar and thus feeling disconnected... :rolleyes:

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